"Jew" Thoughts about the word...

[subculture_of_one]

Hello all.

I am a professor of religion at a small midwest college and I've been noticing something I find interesting... Many (non-jewinsh) students are very hesitant to use the word 'Jew' in any context. Therefore, I start my section on Judaism by addressing the word- that it is not a 'bad word' but has been so demonized in US culture, that so many would rather say 'Jewish Person' or "Followers of Judaism". Same goes for the word 'Arab'. What are your thoughts?

I am particularly interested in the thoughts of other Jews, what have you noticed,if anything?

Sub

[bananabrain]

interesting. i wouldn't say: "he's a jew" but "he's jewish". i find it somewhat, i don't know, rough. americans do it a lot more. it could be something to do with how i like to hear english spoken; i *would* say "i'm a jew", though, although more likely "i'm jewish". i think part of it is the idea that "jewish" as an adjective is kind of subject to whatever spin the describer puts on it. it can be neutral, nice or nasty, it seems.

it seems to me, though, that if people are anxious to use the word at all, it could be because they are so aware that to be labelled as "jewish" is somehow pejorative or (as is more likely in the UK) embarrassing. one cultural organisation over here that has its main constituency in the secular and unaffiliated tends to use phrases like "diaspora culture" and "kosher culture" in a somewhat euphemistic manner which comes across feeling like the word "jewish" is uncool.

however, from what you're saying, it could be that as you're on a US campus, they're just scared of the PC police coming after them. in a country where there was a lawsuit over the word "niggardly", i wouldn't be at all surprised.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[subculture_of_one]

Very interesting!

I see your point about differentiating between 'I am a Jew' and 'I'm Jewish'
I would say that to a large extent, using 'Jew' as in the following: "Do the Jews believe in 'X'?" But I totally understand what you're saying. I think one of the problems comes from the fact that when talking about religions one can say
'he is Christian (Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Muslim, Buddhist) ' and
'he is a Christian (Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Muslim, Buddhist)'
But in dealing with Judaism, as you pointed out, there is a difference in terminology between the sentence '...is...' and '...is a...'

And yes, we are very (over) aware of the PC-ness of speech. So people tend to steer as close to the middle as possible to not be thought 'intolerant'.

Sub

[dauer]

I'm a Jew, and I've never found the word offensive. But I live up north and we do things a little bit differently. Jew is in around these parts... at least among Jews... I just Jew it like I always Jew.

I think if you had a few more yidn in your area people would be less sensitive, but lack of contact makes em sensitive. Which is the opposite of diaper rash.

Dauer

Come to think of it, someone did call me a Jew once in an offensive manner, but that was out of the ordinary. I think it's awesome that you're disspelling ignorance.

[subculture_of_one]

Thank you for your humor Dauer


Oddly enough, around my area there are several, very large Jewish communities. We got just about everything in these here parts! Though I guess I should have specified that the predominantly Christian cohort of my classes are reluctant to use the word Jew. I find that when I talk about some of the anti-Jewish sentiment in the gospels and the early Christian church, they get even more uncomfortable...Though I try to do my part to inform those who lack info... There is no shortage of the question "What religion was Jesus?" and the like.

*sigh* What so ever will we do?!

Sub

[wil]

lack of contact makes em sensitive. Which is the opposite of diaper rash.

love it!

What is absolutely interesting to me is that depending on who you talk to it appears to be Judaism is a religion, being a Jew or Jewish is a nationality... or a family... moreso than I see christian or hindi, or buddhist...

thoughts?

Also I was a member of a club once...and a new member Rubenstien was looking at the roster and said....'wow 3/4 of the people here are Jews!' I was so unaware that I didn't know he was nor all the name identifications he was refering to...and all were surprised that I was not aware they (90% that night) were Jewish... it was a juggling club...since then I've determined the common denominators with juggling are math, science and jews...that would cover the majority of juggling clubs members in the US...

Lastly for your topic, I don't find my friends objectionable about the word either way, however I do find they make it plain when in negotiation with each other and keep it to themselves when in negotiation with non-jews...

namaste,

[dauer]

subculture,

Are the particular Christians who have a hard time with the word "Jew" those who would tend to take scripture more literally? In that case there might be a harder time relating the Jews they see as their friends and neighbors to the ones characterized by the GT.

Wil,

I don't really see a distinction between Jew and Jewish. I know plenty of fairly secular Jews who would have no problem calling themselves Jewish or saying they belong to Judaism. I think that's part of a larger discussion about the fact that Judaism isn't quite a religion and isn't quite a nation (or maybe is both,) but is some combination of the two. This goes back to other similar nations back in the day that functioned similarly, but only Judaism survived, only to be separated from its place of origin and spread all over.

I think the situation, as a tribal religion, might be something similar to what you'd see among Native Americans. A Sioux is a Sioux. This refers to both tribe and religion.

Dauer

[subculture_of_one]

First off, good point about the tribal aspect of the religion dauer. When I bring that up in class, peoples get confuzzed...

And I don't think it's necessarily those who take scripture seriously... I think it's actually the ones who consider themselves Christian but don't know much about their religion to begin with. The 'scriptural christians' tend to know more about Jews... But also, where 'they went wrong'. So their view of Judaism tends to be the "we're daddy's favorite kid now!" kind of approach, albeit unstated most of the time.

When I talk about the various Jewish weddings I've been to, I'll usually get one or two students come up to me at the end of class and ask, somewhat sheepishly, "Are you Jewish?". I think that the 'uninformed christian' as stated above, still holds to the belief that to be a Jew is to be instantly identifiable. Like Islam is ONLY an Arab religion, etc.
I think a lot of this also has to do with the Baby Boom generation's take on religion and their reluctance to affiliate with orthodoxy... (IMO)

Sub

[Quahom1]

I think the word "Jew" has a troubling conotation, simply because during WWII it was so derogatorily used by the Germans and Japanese, that Americans want no connection with that side of the war. (I know I do not). If someone says of their own accord, "I'm a Jew", then I have no problem, repeating what was said.


A small story, that you might enjoy. I met a phenominal man, who introduced himself to me as a "nigger". Of course my eyes went wide (1995), but I simply replied with "ok". He pushed the issue, and restated, "no, I'm a nigger". So I responded with , "pleased to meet you, I'm a "honky".

He laughed and said, "Good, you make all the honking noises, while I'm the ass behind this machine, and we'll move forward fast and get things done".

I was a Chief, and he was a Third class at the time. Now he is a Chief, and a damn good one. And I'm so proud of that man I could bust!

My point is it all depends upon who is using what titles, and why.

Teach your students that attitude is what counts. Not the names we give.

Jewish folk used to call non-Jews "Dogs". Very derogatory term for the gentile...yes? Jesus called the woman at the well (in a round about way), a little dog (a term of endearment). But she would have none of it. She humbled herself with her station in life, and pointed out that even puppies got the crumbs that fell from the master's table.

It all depends upon the thought behind the wording.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[subculture_of_one]

Couldn't agree more. Inflection/attitude goes a looong way. go into a bar in Ann Arbor and tell someone you're a Michigan State fan... Oh, you're a Spartan....That's kind of how I end the 'words' part of my intro lecture. Words have the meanings of a lot of different people, places, and times attached to them, but how you use a word makes a difference. And I'm sorry, I think I missed something Quahom: Chief and third class.... Petty Officer?

Sub

[Quahom1]

I think I missed something Quahom: Chief and third class.... Petty Officer?

That was he, and now he is me.

Edit: by the bye, happiness is crushed Buckeye nuts. M go Blue!

[bananabrain]

aha!

"Do the Jews believe in 'X'?"

i tell you why this feels less appropriate: what this implies is that jews are this undifferentiated, amorphous mass opinion who all act as one. we very clearly aren't - at least if you know us. what you could say would be "do jewish people believe in X?", or "do jews believe in X?" - it's the definiteness of the definite article that implies that there's a clear answer and that one person is empowered to speak for us. it's a different question to ask "does judaism believe in X?" - that makes it less personal. if asked this, personally, i wouldn't actually find it a problem; i'd answer the question they *meant* to ask!

think if you had a few more yidn in your area people would be less sensitive, but lack of contact makes em sensitive. Which is the opposite of diaper rash.

hah! i agree. although, i have to say, i don't like the "y-word" - partly because it's too ashkenazi for me and the sort of people that usually use it (not you, of course, dauer) tend to assume a sort of ethnic solidarity which i find to be too insecure and prejudiced against outsiders. you, know the sort of people who whisper "nicht unserer" ("not 'one of ours'") or talk about "schvartzers". "feh" to them, from an "abbadabba".

I think a lot of this also has to do with the Baby Boom generation's take on religion and their reluctance to affiliate with orthodoxy.

i agree - in fact, it's also got a lot to do with the post-enlightenment consensus on religion; that it's a sort of vestigial thing that will eventually wither and drop off.

Q - your story made me laugh, but this one:

Jewish folk used to call non-Jews "Dogs".

WHAAAAT??? i've never heard that. where's your source? if it's the jesus story you quote, maybe he's doing some teaching there about derogatory language and teaching that woman she doesn't have to be treated like a second-class citizen; in which case i entirely approve.

there are plenty of rude terms for non-jewish people in the Talmudic literature which is more or less contemporary to jesus; ranging from "akum" (acronym for "star-worshipper", or a pagan) to "min" ("sectarian", usually how christians are referred to) but although it's often uncomplimentary, we're just as rude to each other, talking about how scholars shouldn't mix with an "am ha'aretz" (ignorant peasant) and so on. of course over time more unpleasant words have arisen, but they are generally considered to be unacceptable, like "yok" or "shiksa", which i will not have said in my presence, although it hasn't happened often. "goy", however, isn't actually rude, although it is often used as a term of abuse: "goyische" meaning approximately the same as the russian "ne-kulturniy" if you ask me. and, before you ask, sephardis are just as bad as ashkenazis if not worse!!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Faustus]

I'm another one who's never once heard of Jewish people referring to non-Jews as "dogs," ever. I'd like to see the source on this, as well. As Bananabrain says, there are a number of unflattering ways that the Talmud refers to non-Jews, but there are also unpleasant ways of referring to fellow Jews.

"Goy" can be somewhat perjorative; "goyische kop," that kind of thing. Though on the other end, you can be a "yiddishe goy," and that's quite a compliment. Heh. The literal meaning of "goy," though, is just "nation" (as far as I remember). So to say "the goyim" really just means "the nations" (i.e. the nations other than Israel). Although I'm not sure, I could have sworn that there are parts of the Talmud where "Goyim" is used in a Jewish context, to apply to the Jewish nation. I can't remember my source for that, though, so I could be way off.

[dauer]

BB,

You know, when I use less Yinglishized Yiddish words like yiddn, some of the reason is just to break stereotypes. Some of it is to reclaim the word for another segment of the Jewish population. Some of it is to break boundaries and maybe open up for understanding. This becomes more apparent when I begin to talk about God seriously, from a personal perspective, or that I have an interest in all things Torah, because this doesn't fit most people's definition of what a liberal Jew is, at least not around me besides the other Renewal Jews I know.

Dauer

[Faustus]

Actually, I like that philosophy. It's true that saying "yiddn" or using other Yiddish and Hebrew phraseology can make someone assume that the speaker is frum. When it's obvious that they're not, it's definitely reclaiming a bit of the lingo for those of us who are of more liberal branches (I don't say "less observant," because that assumes that Orthodoxy is the only way to be observant, which I don't necessarily think).

Good point.