Jesus To Judaism

[Manji2012]

I understand Christianity regards Jesus as the Son God, God incarnate, God in the flesh, God.

I understand that Islam sees Jesus as not God and only a prophet.

But how about Judaisms view of Jesus.

Also, if Judaism has this Messiah, what is this Messiah supposed to be?

Hmm, I guess most of world religions are waiting for the arrival of someone. Buddhism has Maitreya I think, Christians and Muslims it is Jesus, and I suppose for Judaism too.

[dauer]

Manji,

Jesus plays no role in the Jewish religion. He's an historical figure, like Napoleon, Davey Crockett or George Burns.

Moshiach means annointed one and refers, essentially, to an inauguration ceremony common in the ancient world for new leaders, annointing them with oil. David was a moshiach, Cyrus was a moshiach, and so on.

The moshiach however refers to a specific moshiach, a specific leader who isn't supposed to be supernatural or even superhuman, but who is supposed to essentially restore the davidic monarchy, rebuild the beit hamikdash, and at that time there's supposed to come world peace. The understanding of what might happen varies greatly between the more mystical interpretation and the more rationalist one. A teaching from the Talmud advocates that, if one is holding a sapling and hears the moshiach has come, first he should plant the sapling and then go greet him. In other words, we're not meant to rush into figuring out if it's really the right guy, but let time tell. This isn't always taken to heart. See for example Shabtai Tzvi, Bar Kokhba, and the meshichist faction in chabad.

In contemporary Judaism the concept of an individual moshiach is sometimes modified to refer to a utopian messianic age. There are also other contemporary thinkers who have different ideas about the concept of the moshiach.

[Muslimwoman]

Shalom Dauer

If someone came along claiming to be the Moshiach (sorry that doesn't sound right because they would have to be annointed before they could be the Moshiach but I think you know what I mean) would they have to prove their lineage back to David? Are there other attributes they would have to hold to fulfil the prophesy?

Salaam


Sorry just ignore me, I just saw Dondi has started a new thread asking this question so I shall wait and read that one rather than you repeating yourself.

[dauer]

MW.

yeah, there's a long list of chores for the moshiach. Oy-yoy-yoy-yoy-yoy-yoy-yoy. In addition to which Eliyahu is supposed to come back to declare it. This is Ramba"m on the matter:

The Laws Concerning Mashiach

Of course he is a bit of a rationalist. Someone else might call into question that the nature of reality will continue as it has, undisturbed. Perhaps the lion will lie with the lamb. Perhaps the negative mitzvot will be nullified. Perhaps the nature of humanity will change such that the only possible sin is a chayt.

[Muslimwoman]

Thank you Dauer

I have bookmarked it, I want to have a really good read, this particular subject really interests me.

It is without doubt that G-d has told us, repeatedly, that someone will come and herald a time of peace. To my simple mind we all spend so much time trying to decide who it will be, what colour their skin will be and which faith they will 'belong' to. To me, we should simply place our trust in G-d and wait. One would assume that when G-d sends this bringer of peace we might just notice don't ya think, then all these questions will be answered.

Maybe, until we all have the sense to stop arguing and trust in G-d, this person will not be sent, so we are actually delaying a time of peace by our lack of faith?

[dauer]

mw,

I think one of the issues that's related to is active vs. passive messianism i.e. can we help bring that time to pass or will it happen independent of us? Despite my lack of belief in a messiah figure or even a messianic age I tend to favor an active approach that doesn't get into particulars. The danger in active messianism is when one does get into many particulars.

One drash I've read on the concept of messiah relates it to oil as a lubricant. In that sense the more we can lubricate things, reduce friction, the more we are all making a messianic time reality. There's a book I'm going to be getting probably in my next amazon shipment that's by Raphael Patai.

Amazon.com: Messiah Texts: Books: Raphael Patai

It's really just an extensive compilation of translations of Jewish sources on the messiah. This is from Reb Yonassan Gershom's review:

"Patai does not seek to present any particular doctrine as "the truth," nor does he seek to convert anybody to anything. He simply presents all the materials he could find, with some academic overviews of the basic themes. His approach is that of an academic folklorist, not a theologian -- in fact, the book is subtitled "Jewish Legends of Three Thousand Years."

The chapters cover such things as pre-existent names of the Messiah, prophecies, apocalyptic writings, birth of the Messiah, stages of the Great Redemption, Last Judgement, Resurrection, dreams and visions of the future world, etc. There are sources from the Bible, Talmud, Midrash, medieval texts, Hasidic teachings, and modern accounts. Plus there are literary references to the Messiah from such writers as Elie Wiesel, Scholom Asch, Martin Buber, Jacob Wasserman, etc. All in all, 337 pages of prime material."

The different beliefs, particularly the non-rational ones interest me much more than the watered down stuff devoid of much myth that's so frequently passed along today. One of the things I'm especially looking forward to reading about is some of the parallels in the Jewish concept of the messiah to other religions that may have over time been de-emphasized.

[Muslimwoman]

Shalom Dauer

I already have 2 cases of books to take back with me so can't add anymore but will be very interested to hear some interesting snippets when you get the book.

I think I would have to go with the active theory, if it's just going to happen no matter what we do it would seem that we would not be deserving of a time of peace. Of course this is also a very depressing theory, as I hardly think we will ever become that 'enlightened'.

In Judaism, for the time of peace to come, would it require mankind to take a course of action or is it limited to the actions of the Jewish nation?

Salaam

[dauer]

In Judaism, for the time of peace to come, would it require mankind to take a course of action or is it limited to the actions of the Jewish nation?

It would depend on who you ask. It ranges from "everyone can do their part" to "Jews are uniquely equipped to do it."

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by dauer

It would depend on who you ask. It ranges from "everyone can do their part" to "Jews are uniquely equipped to do it."

I love it when there is a straight forward answer to everything. So far I have established that the ony straight answer when it comes to religion is that G-d exists. That is it, the only one I have come across that doesn't have a 'but' attached.

[dauer]

mw,

well in Judaism even that does, as far as the nature of G!d. And then when you get to Jewish humanism they go so far as to say that belief in G!d can be a bad thing. But for everyone else the issue is really the nature of G!d such that some Jewish theology suggests G!d is a verb. Mordecai Kaplan, the founder of the reconstructionist movement, would say that God is the power that makes for salvation.

[Muslimwoman]

Oh there just had to be a 'but'

I think I should hide in my simplistic little mental shell where everything has a simple answer. G-d exists (don't try to work out in what form because you can't) and He doesn't want us to go around hating and killing each other - there we go happy brain again.

[wil]

You know I must say this title has been so compelling as studying Jesus has lead me to want to study and learn more about Judaism. lol we talked in the reincarnation thread about the possibility that one wouldn't find it all in one lifetime....well between the sights to see, the science to learn, the religions to explore....I don't think anyone could do this plane of existence justice in a hundred lives!

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I love it when there is a straight forward answer to everything. So far I have established that the only straight answer when it comes to religion is that G-d exists. That is it, the only one I have come across that doesn't have a 'but' attached.

lol as Dauer says for many that is questionable, and for those that can agree we now need to define 'G!d' and define 'exists'!

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

I don't think anyone could do this plane of existence justice in a hundred lives!

Absolutely right.

Originally Posted by wil

lol as Dauer says for many that is questionable, and for those that can agree we now need to define 'G!d' and define 'exists'!

But I don't want to define G-d, He just 'is'. When I converted and was told the 99 names/attributes of G-d, I thought it was a silly amount of names/attributes to give Him. Now I know those names/attributes I can see that it is way too inadequate. G-d simply is and we are way too feeble minded to even begin to grasp what He is or how His existence works.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by dauer

Moshiach means annointed one and refers, essentially, to an inauguration ceremony common in the ancient world for new leaders, annointing them with oil. David was a moshiach, Cyrus was a moshiach, and so on.

In Christianity, the annointing by men is a shadow of what God would do with Christ--with many witnesses to it, so it is not coming from the opinion of a nation, but from God. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

In Christianity, the annointing by men is a shadow of what God would do with Christ--with many witnesses to it, so it is not coming from the opinion of a nation, but from God.

ahem - actually, this is from the opinion of various humans who reported the facts several hundred years after the events with the benefit both of hindsight and a specific religious agenda. i think you need to revisit your definition of what "from G!D" actually means in practice as opposed to ideologically.

b'shalom

bananabrain