Jesus (pbuh) - failed Prophet

[bob x]

I dont see how you can use any scripture of the bible when you reject the words of John the Baptist who proclaimed the Messiah and baptized him and Jesus Christ who said I am the way, the truth, and the life.

Some scriptures are better than others. The gospel of Matthew preserves many of the actual words of Jesus, I believe. The gospel of John appears to be completely worthless in that regard.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pico

Yes, you are supposed to worship God. But as I was saying about us being spiritually dead until we believe in Christ and receive the Holy Spirit which gives us life is something Jesus said:

I am sorry Pico but as a person of faith I find it very insulting that you suggest I am 'spiritually dead'. I worship G-d and only G-d, that does not make me spiritually dead. I accept you may believe that but then I believe you are an idol worshipper - so I suppose we are even.

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

I dont see how you can use any scripture of the bible when you reject the words of John the Baptist who proclaimed the Messiah and baptized him and Jesus Christ who said I am the way, the truth, and the life. if you want to accept truth from the bible as you use it as evidence, then you would have to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

The whole point is that YOU accept the Bible as your Scripture and your Scripture tells you to worship and serve only G-d. So of course I wonder why you choose to ignore that part of your Scripture? It would be pointless me quoting the Quran at you as you do not accept it, therefore I used a quote from your own Scripture as I assumed you would not argue with that.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

. . . well maybe he was that. But maybe he was trying to show, or demonstrate, something much greater than himself.

I accept that he achieved that very well but I do not accept he was the son of G-d and is G-d Himself.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

It's not about going through someone.

And yet I keep being told that no-one can get to G-d unless they go through Jesus (pbuh). I accept what you are saying and I agree that Jesus (pbuh) was a shining example to us all but I will not worship an example, I only worship G-d as instructed in all the Scriptures.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

. We weren't meant to focus on Jesus, the details about Jesus' existence, but on what Jesus represented.

And yet that is exactly what has happened (as indeed has happened with the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) although people do not claim he was G-d). The message has largely become lost in arguments of 'we are right and you are wrong' from all sides.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Christianity looks like a Crooked Path from the outside, but it's just that the tradition is to believe in a God that plays hide-and-seek and therefore "hard to get" and therefore if we were sincere we would take the initiative and try and seek out a God that we can't easily find. Rather than taking the superficial, cop-out, most obvious, shortcut approach, trying to manipulate God, we try and probe deeper.

I was right with you up until this paragraph. I cannot find anything in the Scriptures that suggests G-d plays hide and seek, quite the opposite He tells us we just have to look for Him, believe in Him and serve Him. If we take one step toward G-d then He will take two steps toward us. That suggests that G-d is not playing hide and seek but is standing out in the open shouting come and get me.

As for the cop-out, shortcut - I couldn't help but laugh. If G-d is standing out in the open saying come and get me, why would walking toward him saying yes please be a cop-out shortcut? I would rather that than hide behind a wall saying I can't find you, someone needs to show me where you are.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

. In one sense, you may already believe in what Jesus said and did, implicitly.

Of course I do but I see him for what he was, a gift from G-d, a shining example to humankind, the bringer of G-d's message and proof of G-d's mercy for us.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The trouble may be the semantics that have been built around Jesus' life and sayings. If you believe there is no barrier between you and God and that you don't have to be a slave of any philosophy, you are probably warm on the trails.

Whenever I have this conversation it is not to change people's minds, it is to try to understand why people choose not to follow one simple instruction, which G-d has given us again and again - worship G-d alone. I just don't get it, when the very person that told us to worship and serve G-d alone then becomes the object of worship. It is like the opposite of 'don't shoot the messenger'.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

. I won't let the label of "Muslim" get in the way.

That is just too decent of you.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I accept that he achieved that very well but I do not accept he was the son of G-d and is G-d Himself.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

And yet I keep being told that no-one can get to G-d unless they go through Jesus (pbuh). I accept what you are saying and I agree that Jesus (pbuh) was a shining example to us all but I will not worship an example, I only worship G-d as instructed in all the Scriptures.

I don't mean to be cheeky, but the "through Jesus" phrase is actually open to interpretation. What exactly does one mean by it? Does it mean that Jesus is like some kind of channel connecting our world to God? If we were to think that way, then yes, indeed, we are "worshiping" the example.

But what if this example was just a way of cautioning, warning or guiding us so that we didn't take the wrong approach to our relationship with God? What if it was a response to an entire culture that thought that they could approach God in a particular way? Jesus' life and sayings could simply have been a way of cautioning us against popular culture.

Btw, "Son of God" is also open to interpretation. What does one mean by it? I have no intention of starting a debate, so I will simply say that he was "like a son" to God because he lived in honour of God. What else can I say?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I was right with you up until this paragraph. I cannot find anything in the Scriptures that suggests G-d plays hide and seek, quite the opposite He tells us we just have to look for Him, believe in Him and serve Him. If we take one step toward G-d then He will take two steps toward us. That suggests that G-d is not playing hide and seek but is standing out in the open shouting come and get me.

As for the cop-out, shortcut - I couldn't help but laugh. If G-d is standing out in the open saying come and get me, why would walking toward him saying yes please be a cop-out shortcut? I would rather that than hide behind a wall saying I can't find you, someone needs to show me where you are.

Popular culture has a powerful influence on what we believe about God. But of course we should not be slaves to popular culture in our relationship with God, but to approach Him in a way that we intuitively and instinctively believe is right. When we subscribe to popular ideas, we take the "cop-out" or "shortcut" approach to God. We try and manipulate God by doing what others are doing because we believe that if we do exactly the same thing, then we will receive the same benefits.

But the kingdom of God isn't a convenience store with ready-made products and you don't walk up to the clerk, make the transaction, walk off and forget about him. That's the thing about convenience and retail stores and the transactions you make there. There's nothing personal about it. Pay the cash and go.

Jesus was a natural person. I believe he was asking us all to be as natural as he was in his relationship with God. He didn't treat God like the clerk in a convenience store where he just paid, left and forgot about God.

That's one of the most dangerous things in a Christian community, or should I say, in any religious community. You develop a counter-culture against everyone who is not Christian, and what non-Christians do. Then you start making lists about what makes you a Christian and what makes the rest non-Christian. You start getting manipulated by a list that says you are Christian because you believe this and that. This list then becomes popular and Christians become attached to the counter-culture that becomes the "popular culture" of their community (the in-group).

When people's attitudes are dictated by this popular culture, they manipulate themselves into thinking they are close to God.

What I meant by God playing "hide-and-seek" and being "hard to get" is that God will always shy away from popular culture and popular ideas, but popular culture is manipulative and phony. So if your culture believes that God is an old man sitting on a throne somewhere in the sky, God will, instead manifest His presence in a remote cave where few people can find Him. Those who are led astray by popular culture will build aeroplanes so they can fly up into heaven to meet God, but those who are sincere and not phony will try and find the cave where He really lives. If, one day, the idea that God lives in a cave becomes popular, people will find that God is instead somewhere else. This is just a metaphor, so it's not about where God is; the idea is that whatever popular ideas we use to get to God, it won't work. We have to approach Him in our own personal way.

If I were to use the "through Jesus" (and it depends what you mean by it) phrase, it would not mean that we are to believe popular ideas other Christians have about how Jesus leads us to God. Anything popular cannot be true because it's phony and manipulative. Whatever is popular among Christians, the exact opposite is true.

Jesus' life and sayings cautioned and warned us against popular ideas. Therefore, one way of seeing this "through Jesus" thing is to see it as a caution, a warning or guiding concept. It's not mandatory or essential to use the concept, to know about it, or even to mention it. It doesn't need a name. It's not the name, it's the understanding. If we have never heard of the concept, we may still, instinctively and intuitively believe in it. Putting a name on it opens a door that lets in the danger of being manipulated by it.

What I mean: "Through Jesus" means the opposite of whatever popular ideas we have about what "through Jesus" means. It is to not subscribe to popular ideas, so if the phrase "through Jesus" becomes popular, we should stop using it, which is why you don't often see me using it. I am only using it here as a warning, caution and guiding concept. If you are manipulated by the "through Jesus" phrase, then let me say -- I warned you. That said, I should probably not mention it again in case I lead you further astray.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I just don't get it, when the very person that told us to worship and serve G-d alone then becomes the object of worship. It is like the opposite of 'don't shoot the messenger'.

Whoever shot him, it wasn't me. I am not a murderer and I have certainly never fired a gun before. Cross my heart and hope to die. Shoot me if I did.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But what if this example was just a way of cautioning, warning or guiding us so that we didn't take the wrong approach to our relationship with God? What if it was a response to an entire culture that thought that they could approach God in a particular way? Jesus' life and sayings could simply have been a way of cautioning us against popular culture.

Well that would not be worshipping him, it would be worshipping G-d 'through' (ie by learning and putting into practice) his teachings.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Btw, "Son of God" is also open to interpretation. What does one mean by it? I have no intention of starting a debate, so I will simply say that he was "like a son" to God because he lived in honour of God. What else can I say?

Certainly we are all children of G-d, He is our creator.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Popular culture has a powerful influence on what we believe about God. But of course we should not be slaves to popular culture in our relationship with God, but to approach Him in a way that we intuitively and instinctively believe is right. When we subscribe to popular ideas, we take the "cop-out" or "shortcut" approach to God. We try and manipulate God by doing what others are doing because we believe that if we do exactly the same thing, then we will receive the same benefits.

I wish more people would approach their belief in G-d the same way you appear to. You cannot fit Him in a box or define Him. You have to follow your heart and 'live' worshipping Him, not just preaching about it.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

When people's attitudes are dictated by this popular culture, they manipulate themselves into thinking they are close to God.

Do they maniplute themselves or are they manipulated by 'leaders'? If all of your leaders, from kindergarten teacher to President/Prime Minister, tell you x, y & z is true are you manipulating yourself if you believe it? Believe me it is very hard to shake off that many years of brainwashing. Of course it is the same for any organised religion that you are born into.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

What I meant by God playing "hide-and-seek" and being "hard to get" is that God will always shy away from popular culture and popular ideas, but popular culture is manipulative and phony.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Is that not why G-d sent Jesus (pbuh), because popular belief had overshadowed the very simple message of G-d? In Islam we believe there have been thousands and thousands of Prophets, which does rather suggest we humans don't catch on too quick!! Well, we probably do for the first hundred years or so, then the culture kicks in once it is no longer shiny and new.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Jesus' life and sayings cautioned and warned us against popular ideas. Therefore, one way of seeing this "through Jesus" thing is to see it as a caution, a warning or guiding concept. It's not mandatory or essential to use the concept, to know about it, or even to mention it. It doesn't need a name. It's not the name, it's the understanding. If we have never heard of the concept, we may still, instinctively and intuitively believe in it. Putting a name on it opens a door that lets in the danger of being manipulated by it.

There are some Islamic scholars that have said there is no need for a person to have ever heard of any religion to find G-d, that simply contemplating the world around us we can come to know G-d.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

What I mean: "Through Jesus" means the opposite of whatever popular ideas we have about what "through Jesus" means. It is to not subscribe to popular ideas, so if the phrase "through Jesus" becomes popular, we should stop using it, which is why you don't often see me using it. I am only using it here as a warning, caution and guiding concept.

I try very hard to follow the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) but I am not buying into this worshipping him idea. Why can't people just listen to his message, it's not like it was complicated - worship G-d alone and love your brother as you love yourself.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

If you are manipulated by the "through Jesus" phrase, then let me say -- I warned you. That said, I should probably not mention it again in case I lead you further astray.

You are welcome to try but I am a tough nut to crack. I get rather stubborn about my belief in G-d, it is mine alone and neither 'side' will get me to follow their popular culture, I don't have to answer to people for my faith but one day I shall have to answer to the big guy upstairs.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Whoever shot him, it wasn't me. I am not a murderer and I have certainly never fired a gun before. Cross my heart and hope to die. Shoot me if I did.

Hee, hee. Well someone shot the messenger, come on own up who did it? It will be those damn Romans again.

[Neemai]

"There Is No Way To The Father Except Through The Son"

Are those who follow God's instructions not also to be counted amongst His Sons?

With this understanding, the meaning would be - "if you want to approach God, then first approach someone who knows about Him (i.e who is His Son), so that They can teach you". It would have nothing to do with worshipping God directly or indirectly, but be a very practical teaching. For the people Jesus spoke this to He was clearly their best hope, but what is there to indicate that we should take the statement as a universal one, for all people, for the rest of time?

(sorry for butting in, but I felt it was relevant)

... Neemai

[BlaznFattyz]

You would want to learn something from a godly man who could help you, but this godly men does not make him the Son of God. it only makes him a son, a child, a fellow servant of God, that has faults and is mortal and who sins. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who directly came from God, who was with God, and is God--who is eternal life, grace, truth, and salvation. Jesus is the Son of God--who forgives sins and judges all nations and has the keys to life and death and sits on the throne of God in heaven.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

You are welcome to try but I am a tough nut to crack. I get rather stubborn about my belief in G-d, it is mine alone and neither 'side' will get me to follow their popular culture, I don't have to answer to people for my faith but one day I shall have to answer to the big guy upstairs.

No worries. I always knew you were a skeptic. You're no slave of popularity.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I try very hard to follow the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) but I am not buying into this worshipping him idea. Why can't people just listen to his message, it's not like it was complicated - worship G-d alone and love your brother as you love yourself.

The "through Jesus" idea seems to have become somewhat over-rated, to the point that we probably no longer understand what was originally meant by the phrase, much like a cliche. One could say that it was through Moses that the Israelites were rescued from slavery by the Egyptians, and through the prophets that the nation of Israel repented and mended their ways.

Originally Posted by Neemai

"There Is No Way To The Father Except Through The Son"

Are those who follow God's instructions not also to be counted amongst His Sons?

With this understanding, the meaning would be - "if you want to approach God, then first approach someone who knows about Him (i.e who is His Son), so that They can teach you". It would have nothing to do with worshipping God directly or indirectly, but be a very practical teaching. For the people Jesus spoke this to He was clearly their best hope, but what is there to indicate that we should take the statement as a universal one, for all people, for the rest of time?

The trouble with the first statement of "no other way" is that the meaning of the word "way" in the statement is open to interpretation. What exactly did Jesus mean by "way?" To know that one has adopted a particular "way" of life or "way" of thinking, one must be able to identify it. I think there are several ways in which we can make a mistake about the meaning of "the way."

One is where we can't distinguish the "philosophy of the Way" from the "reality of the Way." The second is where we form of a definition of what it means to be "on the Way."

Jesus' life and sayings, of course, shows us what he means by "the Way." Jesus said, "follow me" and obviously he had something very special to show. However, Jesus never gave a definition of "the Way." What he gave was a description, a depiction, an explanation of what it meant. He left his depictions, descriptions and explanations open to interpretation. He didn't give a definition.

If he had given a definition, then his sayings and teachings would become nothing but slogans. People would not think or explore his legacy, his sayings and teachings any further than these slogans. We would be nothing but slaves of indoctrination.

There is much in today's generation of Christians that is driven by slogans and banners, but the point is, Jesus never meant for his life and sayings to be banners and slogans. He wants us to understand his life and sayings, not wave them around.

This is what distinguishes the "philosophy of the Way" from the "reality of the Way." If we were to think in terms of the philosophy, slogans and banners, then the "way" could be distinguished from other religions like Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, New Age, etc. But that is what you would identify as "the way" from a philosophical, ideological point of view. So as Christians, we study and read the New Testament and we chant its verses because it is our profession.

It may not, however, be our reality. Because Jesus' life and sayings were not slogans and were not a philosophy, it means that to be a true walker of "the Way" we must internalise, personally what they mean. A person who has never heard of Christianity may intuitively and instinctively believe in everything Jesus said, without subscribing to the tenets of the faith that grew out of it.

It is said somewhere that Jesus was "the Man from heaven," which is probably why he is also called "Son of Man" was well as "Son of God." He is said to be the only man who came from heaven, and therefore the only man who can go back to it. He is the only man who knows how to get there, having come from it.

But if this man was to show us "the Way" to heaven, what would he say? Telling us to chant and believe in slogans and to be followers of a philosophy would be wrong, because that is the way this world works. This world revolves around philosophy, doctrine and ideology. The world wants philosophy, doctrine and ideology because it gives us power. Power to poke, prod and control. Jesus therefore didn't define "the way," but told stories about the Kingdom from which he had come. He expected us to work out what these stories meant so that we could understand how to develop the right attitudes toward God so that we would have a good reason to be accepted as citizens of the Kingdom. Much like a travel agent giving out travel brochures, he didn't try and mobilise the masses for a mass excursion. He was a soft power guy who looked for open doors. Yes he had an Open Door Policy.

When Jesus died, he didn't return to the earth, as he was not a man of the earth, but a man from heaven. Everything on earth perishes, while everything on heaven is eternal. Jesus, upon returning to heaven, which is where he came from, came back to life because he wasn't meant to be dead. Those of us who are "sons of God," likewise, won't return to the earth, but to heaven where we belong. Or so the story goes . . .

In a sense, it's got nothing to do with being Christian, Muslim or Jew. It's a question of whether we understand the life and sayings of the man from heaven. A Christian is just a person who, as a profession, reads the New Testament, and reads the stories about Jesus. Jews study the Tanakh and Christians study the New Testament. And yes, some of us can be quite unprofessional.

Being a son of God (a brother of Jesus) is a completely different story . . .

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The whole point is that YOU accept the Bible as your Scripture and your Scripture tells you to worship and serve only G-d. So of course I wonder why you choose to ignore that part of your Scripture? It would be pointless me quoting the Quran at you as you do not accept it, therefore I used a quote from your own Scripture as I assumed you would not argue with that.

It isn't a point of ignoring, it's the point that Jesus is part of God, not seperate. So we do serve God and only God.

I was right with you up until this paragraph. I cannot find anything in the Scriptures that suggests G-d plays hide and seek, quite the opposite He tells us we just have to look for Him, believe in Him and serve Him. If we take one step toward G-d then He will take two steps toward us. That suggests that G-d is not playing hide and seek but is standing out in the open shouting come and get me.

Yeah, I agree with you MW, I don't see it as hide and seek either... but just as mankind screwing up, going farther away from him, and then repenting and getting close again. It's man who hides from God not God who hides from man.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Yeah, I agree with you MW, I don't see it as hide and seek either... but just as mankind screwing up, going farther away from him, and then repenting and getting close again. It's man who hides from God not God who hides from man.

I have an odd way of making a point.

What I meant was that God doesn't see devotion to popular ideas as a way of worshipping Him, as popular cultural ideas are used to impress and please people (ie. peer group pressure), which wouldn't be a sincere and honest approach to a relationship with God. We can, in that sense, fool ourselves into thinking that we're worshipping or pleasing God.

Christianity, has unfortunately, become too much of a fad. I suppose many other religions have become fads too. It would be nice to follow a nameless religion in this regard. Nobody would think you're trying to impress and please people. The reason would be that they can't identify the path you follow.

It would be good to be a Christian or an adherent of a religion without letting people know you are one. That way you don't lead people astray by making them think they can follow your path by copying you. That's just impossible. Everyone's life is different. We all face different challenges.

The hide-and-seek thing I brought up was meant to contrast with the idea that we can approach God the same way we approach popular figures and the powers that be in this world when requesting help. We think we can approach God the same way as we approach our politicians. When we're in trouble, we say, "God, show yourself. Show your power!!!"

If we seek something otherworldly, we must think in otherworldly terms. God is invisible, so yes, he does play hide-and-seek with us.

To explain exactly what I meant by the hide-and-seek thing, however, it was to do with the fact that when we seek help from the powers that be, we seek something visible. We seek something clearly identifiable by or is common knowledge among the general population. We try and find something that everyone else can see. It may be a creed, doctrine, philosophy, ideology, the legal system, political system, cult or government. All of these things can be easily identified. Even what keeps a secret society together can be identified. Therefore the life force of a secret society can be revealed and made visible, and destroyed.

Any political, cultural or ideological force or influence in this world whose root cause can be identified and destroyed can be made visible.

God is invisible not just because we can't physically see Him, but also because we can't identify and destroy the root cause that keeps Him in existence. God is not a philosophy, ideology, doctrine, creed or political system. God is invisible because He's untouchable in this world. You can identify and destroy a cultural, political or ideological movement (an alternate "god"), but not God.

Jesus said that we can't see the wind, but we can see what it does. Same with God. Can you stop the wind? Can you destroy the wind? Likewise, we can't stop, or destroy the Spirit of God.

But what do we say about a cultural, political or ideological movement? A cultural fad? Popular cultural idols? Movie stars? Rock stars? Empires and kingdoms? Businesses? Microsoft isn't going to last forever. The U.S. is not always going to be the most powerful nation in the world. We saw what happened to the European powers. The Roman Empire fell. All these things come to an end. They all had a lifetime and most importantly, a driving force. But that life came to an end. -- and what's left of it all when humanity is wiped out? Will the human race last forever? A long time, but not forever. The human race will outlast its own empires, but not itself.

When we seek God, we should not embrace something that can be seen by the rest of the world, the rest of society. We should not embrace a creed, doctrine, philosophy, ideology, legal or political system. We should not embrace something that can be hunted down by world governments, terrorists, cults and secret societies, all of which can "see" philosophies, ideologies and political structures.

God is hidden from this world. God can only be found by a sincere heart, which searches beyond the limits of this world and seeks Him personally. It is not through a creed or organisation that we establish contact with God.

Yes, God does, in a way, play hide-and-seek. He has always been "hiding." We have always been seeking. That isn't to say He hasn't made Himself partly "visible" by talking to us. He has sought us too. He has taken the initiative. But He expects us to do some of the work ourselves.

[bob x]

So God's like a rock star or a politician who's all surrounded by body-guards and spends most of his time in a big estate with locked gates and patrolling dogs, because he just gets so tired of being besieged by frequently-nutso fans?

[BlaznFattyz]

God does not change, he is not a fad, nor does his words waiver.
However, man does change and tries to redefine God, man gets caught up in religious fads, and man loses integrity.
In a time where the world seeks universalism, where new or old religions and cults and anti-christian movements are introduced and accepted, where man puts oneself and one's interest before God's commandments, and changes God to fit their lifestyle choices, the heart of man and the direction of the world leaves little room for the Spirit of Christ. Because of this, there is a falling away from the core foundation of christian doctrine that is very important to adhere to. this doctrine that has gone from infancy to adulthood in those that have studied God's word from so many great men across many generations of christian thought, is not something i will discard or take a step backwards, for it is still relevant and still speaks truth and wisdom today to those who seek the Lord and wish to worship Him and progress in their christian faith.

Seek YHWH while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to YHWH, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of YHWH and find the knowledge of God.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by bob x

So God's like a rock star or a politician who's all surrounded by body-guards and spends most of his time in a big estate with locked gates and patrolling dogs, because he just gets so tired of being besieged by frequently-nutso fans?

Nah no patrolling dogs or body-guards. No castle or big estate. No nutty fans either.

He's a recluse who's a master of making Himself invisible and insignificant.

You won't find Him on this planet. Not anywhere. Not on the Internet or television, or in newspapers. Not in church either. The church is just a signpost. A symbol.

On this planet, in society, in the world, we will never find Him where we popularly expect to find Him. Not in politics or ideology . . . in legal and justice systems or statecraft . . . systems that somehow represent God because they represent authority (ie. George W. Bush says, I had a dream that God told me to invade Iraq and engage on a crusade against the terrorists).

Pffft yeah. Authority. We think that wherever there is authority, there must be God. It inspires Christians to try and change the laws of society, change the legal system, as if somehow God needs that -- that God needs a political system -- that God needs statecraft. In some ways it's akin to idol worship -- we worship statecraft -- that statecraft is a like a wooden structure with a face on it. What an insult to God. One of the Ten Commandments says we should not create graven images. Yet we build statecraft. We build political systems and worship them. Unfortunately, Jurisprudence was never a part of Christianity, so it confounds me as to why Christians should engage in such activity. Since when was the making of laws a part of a Christian's relationship with God?

That is one example of how popular ideas -- ie. legalism, can lead us astray from a personal relationship with God.

Legalism should only be a secular activity, not a religious one. It is only necessary to be under the rule of law in a world without God. No legal system or political system is needed where there is God. One should not confuse the kingdoms of the earth (made of wood and stone) with the Kingdom of Heaven (made of divine wind).

But....

You do find Him in people. You find Him in yourself if you search deep enough.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

It isn't a point of ignoring, it's the point that Jesus is part of God, not seperate. So we do serve God and only God.

This is the bit I am trying to get to grips with. I speak to one Christian and they explain it as you have done here, which suggests Jesus (pbuh) is an aspect of G-d. Then I speak to another that states Jesus (pbuh) is sitting at the right hand of G-d, he has been given the power to judge us and you can't get to G-d unless you go through Jesus (pbuh). That would surely suggest two seperate entities, not a single G-d?

I do not see how G-d can sit beside Himself or hand Himself the power to judge us, He simply is G-d and has those powers. As for G-d telling us to go through Himself to get to Him this seems to make little sense.

Still confused
Salaam

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

This is the bit I am trying to get to grips with. I speak to one Christian and they explain it as you have done here, which suggests Jesus (pbuh) is an aspect of G-d. Then I speak to another that states Jesus (pbuh) is sitting at the right hand of G-d, he has been given the power to judge us and you can't get to G-d unless you go through Jesus (pbuh). That would surely suggest two seperate entities, not a single G-d?

I do not see how G-d can sit beside Himself or hand Himself the power to judge us, He simply is G-d and has those powers. As for G-d telling us to go through Himself to get to Him this seems to make little sense.

Still confused
Salaam

The one true living God (Elohim) whose characteristics is that of three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature. Because God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. So Jesus reconciles use back to the Holy Father thru his death and resurrection on the cross and washes away our sins with his blood. He is salvation. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

This is the bit I am trying to get to grips with. I speak to one Christian and they explain it as you have done here, which suggests Jesus (pbuh) is an aspect of G-d. Then I speak to another that states Jesus (pbuh) is sitting at the right hand of G-d, he has been given the power to judge us and you can't get to G-d unless you go through Jesus (pbuh). That would surely suggest two seperate entities, not a single G-d?

I do not see how G-d can sit beside Himself or hand Himself the power to judge us, He simply is G-d and has those powers. As for G-d telling us to go through Himself to get to Him this seems to make little sense.

Still confused
Salaam

Part of the reason why I think all this confusion exists is due to the fact that unlike the early Christians, we don't have a first-hand experience of what Jesus actually meant to people. Secondly, we rely too much on Scripture. We rely too much on the words we find in Scripture, where, if we can't find the proper words in one passage, we assume it'll be in some other passage. We treat Scripture like a technical manual that tells us how to operate a machine we've purchased. Spirituality and God, however, are not machines, which is the mistake we make. If God was a machine or if spirituality was a machine and could be manipulated, God would not be God and the so-called "spiritual" would not be spiritual.

As far as I know, the closest the New Testament comes to saying that "Jesus is God," literally and not metaphorically, is in Colossians 1:15, which says he is the image of the invisible God. That verse, however, doesn't actually say that Jesus is God. It says Jesus is an image (ie. projection) of God. There is a difference between saying Jesus is God and that Jesus projects God. Because we can only safely assume this is what the early Christians believed because Paul explicitly states that, the latter is a much safer assumption than the former. There is no explicit statement on the former as far as I know.

Once again, since we don't have first-hand experience of Jesus, what he said and what he did, we don't know exactly what passages meant. They were, of course, supposed to remind us what the early Christians experienced and believed, but I think we often assume too much when we read these passages. So much of Christianity is clouded and obscured by tradition, to the extent that we are no longer able to faithfully discern the true intended meaning of the passages in the New Testament.

The Bible is a piece of literature, and just like any other kind of literature there is an audience, a message, concept being conveyed, characters, a plot, language style, etc. that we have to extract from it. Different kinds of literature are written with a different style -- novels, newspaper articles, scientific reports, textbooks, history books, legal documents, the constitution of a country/nation state, etc. To have a proper understanding of how the Bible is to be read, we often have to have experience in reading these other kinds of literature. There is a common argument in Christianity that the Bible is "plainly readable" by everyone, not necessarily by highly intellectual people. True, yes it is "plainly readable" to some extent, but that does not mean that its true intent is plainly visible to all. The true intent is more important than being able to read the words, sentences and paragraphs and understand them.

The trouble thus is, not all of us have enough experience to be able to understand what the Bible says. You will find a lot of politics and philosophy in the Bible, and a lot of talk about "the spiritual," "right and wrong," human suffering and perserverance, virtue and integrity of character, etc.

The trouble is, to be good at understanding this stuff, you'd have to be a lawyer, statesman or politician, or to have at least read the other kinds of literature to be able to think like one. Not all of us are lawyers, statesmen and politicians, or the minds of such people. Quite obviously, the answer is no, the Bible is not fully understandable by all.

A lot of concepts in Christianity are taught out of convenience rather than to convey and project to the present the experiences of the people who lived 2,000 years (or more for the Old Testament) back in the past. Rather than trying to connect with people in the past, we just lift words out of Scripture and try to make sense of them. The idea that "Jesus is God" and the Trinity are examples. One is taught to assume that the passages in the New Testament define Jesus and God as such, because since we are not all lawyers, statesmen and politicians, we don't all know how words can be used to mean different things. Thus, we're not all capable to working out what the authors of the New Testament meant by the words they used.

So we assume. We silence the kids in Sunday School (and "New Christians") to just assume that is what the authors of the New Testament meant and to stop them asking questions. Their experience is inadequate, and the same with our's. But even if we do have a good idea, we may not be able to explain it to them. It's not because it's complicated, it just requires personal experience.

The Bible was written by politicians, but if we are not politicians, statesmen and lawyers, we can't understand the language of politicians, statesmen and lawyers, so what else are we to do?

That is not to say that you can't understand the Bible, as I did say that it was written by politicians, lawyers, statesmen. It must therefore, be understandable by people who have the minds of politicians, lawyers, statesmen. My advice is this: read about politics and political history. By understanding politics, you can understand religion. There is a lot of ambiguity in the language used in politics, but through experience and use of intuition, people in politics work out, without any ambiguity, what a word or phrase is supposed to mean. They know how words are used and know it could not be used to mean something else.

There is a lot of ambiguity in the words in the Bible and our aim is to work out what it was intended to mean. Interpretation of Scripture is a political exercise. If your knowledge