Jesus (pbuh) - failed Prophet

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

And I see us all as servants of G-d, as is every living thing (animals, trees, Prophets, angels, demons - you name it they are servants of G-d). He is the Master of everything.

It is one of the mental changes you have to make Wil when you convert. The only way I can think to describe it is to liken it to that day when you are a teenager and your Dad says "I have given you everything in life, now it is time you learn the value of money and start earning your keep". I admit, I went through a period of harsh adjustment, I had lost my soft safe bubble of Christianity, that safe internal child that believed G-d wrapped His love around me and protected me. I now had to submit and work hard, to think about every deed, every word I spoke. I had to accept that I had to be deserving of G-d's love, mercy and compassion, not assume it by virtue of believing in Him. After a while I learnt to really enjoy being a servant, when I realised just how amazing my Master is.

That was the way I felt before I got to know Christ, although you stated it more succinctly than I would have. Before I had a relationship with Him, I was an excellent employee. I was treated well and received ample pay. Once I became a Christian, I was family and my Fathers work became more important than anything. I ceased to be a servant. I was a trusted family member no longer on the outside looking disdainfully in. My heart and mind were opened to the beauty of this world. The "master" is my Father.

As for “a warm bubble of protection”, I only really got to know Jesus a few years ago. As a child, I relied on the aforementioned “pump jockey.”

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

think of it the same way you (presumably) think of booze and that ought to help.

That is the strange thing BB, drink was so easy to stop, I just said to myself it is strictly against my religion and stopped. Cigs on the other hand is so much more difficult but perhaps that just shows my lack of willingness to stop, as I make excuses for myself and try to convince myself it isn't really prohibited (which I know is only lying to myself). I am weak but shall keep trying.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

As if, "He loves me because I serve him." I do NOT find that in the Qu'ran, but I do find it in parts of both Islam and Churchianity.

It is not in the Quran and not quite what I meant, I am finding this very difficult to explain as it is such a personal and individual feeling.

Originally Posted by Dondi

It is like a marriage. When two people get married, they don't perform or love their spouses in order to stay married, but they perform or love their spouses because they are married. They are bound by a promise to love, honor, and obey.

Maybe I can explain it better using your example of marriage Dondi. A marriage takes work, if you neglect it then it can fail. I am aware that G-d loves me and is rooting for me to follow the path and do well (as your example of a father). G-d has provided me every assistance He can to find Him and submit to Him but as they say you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I must do my part, I must work at that relationship, I have made a promise, through my submission, to put the work into that relationship. Do I do it so that I may be rewarded, no, I do it because it makes G-d happy, my service pleases Him, which in turn pleases me. Sometimes that is the hardest part, to be totally selfless and do something purely to please G-d, not because it makes you feel good because you are doing something good for G-d (does that make sense?).

Perhaps my difficulty is that I never understood how to be a good Christian? I felt as though I could not fail, as long as I didn't kill anyone (but even then if I truly repented there was hope for me). As with the father child relationship, G-d will always love me but if I fail I should be punished, as you would punish your child in order to teach them right from wrong. As a Christian I felt that if I repented honestly that sin would be forgiven and wiped out. As a Muslim I know nothing can be wiped out, my bad deeds will be shown to me on the Day of Judgement and weighed against my good deeds, insh'allah my good deeds will outweigh my bad. Allah is All Merciful, All Forgiving but I cannot allow myself to try to take advantge of that and assume I will be forgiven if I love Him enough.

I accept it was my failing but I was just trying to explain my personal feelings. As a Muslim I feel more accountable for my every deed. It has gone from a general feeling of doing good to thinking about my every small deed. Maybe that is just the level of concentration I need in order to succeed?

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

if this person who wrote this article, and the many muslims who continue to say "jesus is a prophet (pbuh), etc..." why not continue reading about him; the parables, the miracles, the teachings, the healings, and all the good he went about doing?

Blazn we do not deny the miracles or the good deeds or his exceptional teachings. We simply believe G-d worked through him as a man, not that he was G-d Himself. If we take miracles as proof of divinity should we not also take Moses (pbuh) as G-d? I hope we will agree that Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and that G-d permitted him to perform miracles.

Originally Posted by pattimax

That was the way I felt before I got to know Christ, although you stated it more succinctly than I would have. Before I had a relationship with Him, I was an excellent employee. I was treated well and received ample pay. Once I became a Christian, I was family and my Fathers work became more important than anything. I ceased to be a servant. I was a trusted family member no longer on the outside looking disdainfully in. My heart and mind were opened to the beauty of this world. The "master" is my Father.

G-d does indeed work in mysterious ways Patti. We have each found our path to G-d by changing places. I have become closer to G-d by stopping thinking of myself as a child and now thinking as a faithful and humble servant. You have found your path by becoming G-d's child. Alhamdolillah and I pray we each find peace and guidance on our chosen path.

Salaam

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Blazn we do not deny the miracles or the good deeds or his exceptional teachings. We simply believe G-d worked through him as a man, not that he was G-d Himself. If we take miracles as proof of divinity should we not also take Moses (pbuh) as G-d? I hope we will agree that Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and that G-d permitted him to perform miracles.Salaam

moses was ntclaiming what jesus claimed, and moses didnt forgive sins of his own authority either. its not just miracles, its his teachings as well, if one is to continue to respect him and seek truth, why are his words not sought after, since the quran is lacking in this respect, and with many other prophets as well.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by pattimax

The owner of a gas station can call himself a “pump jockey”, but his children feel the need to set the record straight to those who don’t know him.

Was Jesus a prophet or not? You say NOT, but Jesus said YES... according to the gospels in the bible. Are you claiming the gospel is wrong... or that Jesus was wrong?

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

G-d does indeed work in mysterious ways Patti. We have each found our path to G-d by changing places. I have become closer to G-d by stopping thinking of myself as a child and now thinking as a faithful and humble servant. You have found your path by becoming G-d's child. Alhamdolillah and I pray we each find peace and guidance on our chosen path.

Salaam

I am wondering how well you knew Christ. A child is humble because they want to be, a servant is humble because they feel they have to be. On a previous thread you said you didn't remember learning something about the bible as a child in Sunday school. I responded that it was rather naive to depend on Sunday school for biblical teaching. At that point, you insinuated that I was rude. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If anyone depends on Sunday school as their sole souce of biblical instruction, their knowledge is sorely lacking.

That is what was going on when Christ originally came. The pharisees looked so good on the outside, but it was all show. They had convinced the people that they had to be humble servants and the only way to God was through them. (They were like depending on Sunday school.)Meanwhile, they were pure hypocrites that were always looking for loop holes in the law.

Jesus came to show us that yes, God is creator, and we should pay the utmost respect, but He is also our Father and he loves us. Unconditionally. When that love is reciprocal (Father-child), you don't serve him because you have to, you serve him because you love Him. He is your Father, not your boss. You are his child, not the hired help. You don't have to kiss up to Him, just remember the humility and grace of His sacrifice.

I will genuinely pray that Christ touches your heart.

Karen

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Was Jesus a prophet or not? You say NOT, but Jesus said YES... according to the gospels in the bible. Are you claiming the gospel is wrong... or that Jesus was wrong?

No. I am stating that you are wrong. Post #16, have you read it? Jesus was not a mere prophet.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by pattimax

They had convinced the people that they had to be humble servants and the only way to God was through them.

Hi Karen

That is one of the beauties of Islam, you don't have to go through anybody to get to G-d, we have a direct connection. Every man, woman and child can connect to G-d through prayer, directed straight at G-d.

Originally Posted by pattimax

Jesus came to show us that yes, God is creator, and we should pay the utmost respect, but He is also our Father and he loves us.

We just see things differently. For me G-d is Creator and we should pay the utmost respect. Then the fullstop, there can be no 'but'. G-d is the ultimate ..... 'everything' and that deserves absolute respect.

Originally Posted by pattimax

Unconditionally. When that love is reciprocal (Father-child), you don't serve him because you have to, you serve him because you love Him.

I hope what I said didn't suggest I feel that I 'have' to serve Him, as thought I do it out of obligation or fear of punishment. No. I do it out of love, respect, to honour Him and because He deserves my service. As for G-d not being my boss, well I would beg to differ, He is the ultimate Boss, in this life and the next.

Salaam
Sally

[Pico]

I'm sorry I didn't have time to read through the whoel thread, but I wanted to ask you, Muslimwoman, why was Jesus crucified?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by pattimax

No. I am stating that you are wrong. Post #16, have you read it? Jesus was not a mere prophet.

Yes... are you reversing from your Post #13:

Originally Posted by pattimax

Really don't have time right now, but has anyone pointed out that Jesus Christ was NOT a prophet at all.

If you are saying that Jesus was/is more than a prophet... in Matthew 11:9-10 Jesus says the same of John the Baptist. If you are saying that Jesus was NOT a prophet at all... why? Since when did 'prophet' become a dirty word?

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Fine. Rather knee jerk on my part. I am just tired of seeing the lord of the universe being put on the same level as mere prophets.

Knee jerk- automatic reflex

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Karen

That is one of the beauties of Islam, you don't have to go through anybody to get to G-d, we have a direct connection. Every man, woman and child can connect to G-d through prayer, directed straight at G-d.

Sally

You're a converted Catholic, right?

[Dondi]

Perhaps my difficulty is that I never understood how to be a good Christian? I felt as though I could not fail, as long as I didn't kill anyone (but even then if I truly repented there was hope for me). As with the father child relationship, G-d will always love me but if I fail I should be punished, as you would punish your child in order to teach them right from wrong. As a Christian I felt that if I repented honestly that sin would be forgiven and wiped out. As a Muslim I know nothing can be wiped out, my bad deeds will be shown to me on the Day of Judgement and weighed against my good deeds, insh'allah my good deeds will outweigh my bad. Allah is All Merciful, All Forgiving but I cannot allow myself to try to take advantge of that and assume I will be forgiven if I love Him enough.

It's easy to come to think that Christians have some kind of "instant karma" thing going on, with the assumption that once saved, you don't have to worry about consequences of your actions, 'cause, well, you know, we're forgiven. I used to live like that myself, having been saved in my early teens, I took for granted the Grace of God, and ran with the pack in my own accord. Or that as long as I just to confessed my sins, then I could run back out into the world. Sadly, that is the state of many Christians today. The sacrifice Christ made on the Cross, then, becomes the very thing that brings one down, for one no longer believes he/she is responsible for their sins.

But the concept of grace isn't so that we can go out and sin and everything is honky dory. No, grace is there as a basis for forgiveness, but that grace is designed to propel you forward toward righteousness. It's God's way of saying, ok you messed up, now get up and sin no more.

It's kinda of like the ice skater that keeps falling down as she first learns to skate, but each time gets up and tries again and again until she perfects her routine. Soon she'll find that she falls down less and less. You get the picture here?

I don't think God wants us to live in constant fear of judgement. I believe He will be far more lenient to we are making progress and trying to live according to His Ways. Sure, we'll mess up time and time again, it's part of the sinful nature we have now. But the more we exercise in righteousness, the more righteous we'll become.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If you are saying that Jesus was/is more than a prophet... in Matthew 11:9-10 Jesus says the same of John the Baptist. If you are saying that Jesus was NOT a prophet at all... why? Since when did 'prophet' become a dirty word?

Jesus flat-out claimed to be God. In John 8:58 Jesus says: “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

The word I Am is the translation of the world YHWH, which is God's very own personal name. It's also translated as Jehovah, and Lord.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Pico

Jesus flat-out claimed to be God. In John 8:58 Jesus says: “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

The word I Am is the translation of the world YHWH, which is God's very own personal name. It's also translated as Jehovah, and Lord.

Except that the New Testament was written in Greek and we do not get YHWH in the translation of Jesus' "I am".

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pico

I'm sorry I didn't have time to read through the whoel thread, but I wanted to ask you, Muslimwoman, why was Jesus crucified?

Hi Pico

First may I point out that I do not want to get into an argument about Christianity or your beliefs, I was only trying to put right something said about my beliefs. I feel sure that if a Muslim said you believe x, y or z and it was totally untrue you would speak out.

The honest answer is that I am not G-d so cannot answer this question and I was not a witness to the crucifiction so cannot say whether it happened or not.

Why was he crucified? On a human level... politics. Pilate and the Romans saw him as an insurgent and therefore wanted him removed. Some things never change about humans. In reality I would think a handful of Jews, upset that he was converting Jews to Christianity played a part in accusations against him - however, that does not make the Jews responsible en masse for the crucifiction.

Why did G-d allow this? If it did happen, perhaps because it would remain in people's minds and therefore the message would also remain? Just a guess.

I know this doesn't agree with your beliefs but I can only state my own beliefs. Please don't say but the Bible says and hundreds of people witnessed, because I can say the same for Islam and the Quran but that doesn't mean you would accept it as truth, correct? We can only each state our personal beliefs.

Salaam