Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah

inhumility · 03-02-2006, 05:29 AM

For one I want to make it clear that I believe in the person of Jesus, his love with one God, and God’s love with him, his message, his profound love with humanity, his sacrifice for the truth, his humility, his courage, his un-sinfulness - he is one of the outstanding personalities of the world, I really love him and the Christians.
Some of the learned members have observed in another thread in the Forum titled “Jesus-Neither Literal Son of God nor God” published in the Comparative Studies Board that Jesus was a “Mystery”. I would rather say humbly that let not Jesus be a closed book -a mystery, to me he was an open book for the mankind and please let him remain one like that as his greatness is in that. Let him not be a dogma, a myth, a fiction character, let every body see Jesus in reality, and in open broad daylight. He himself had in fact unfolded this “mystery”, if any, in the likeness of a brilliant sign of Jonah of which he promised and prophesized as a last sign. I narrate it in the words of Mirza Tahir Ahmad:-

The Sign of Jonah

“We prove from the Bible that God did not abandon him and saved him from the ignoble death upon the cross. This can be studied in the light of the facts relating to the period before the Crucifixion, as well as the facts of the Crucifixion itself and after it, as related by the New Testament.
Long before that incident, Jesus promised that no sign would be shown unto the people other than the sign of Jonah.
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.’ (Matt 12:38–41)
So before we determine what happened to Jesus, we must understand what happened to Jonah, because Jesus claimed that the same miracle would be repeated. What was the Sign of Jonah? Did he die in the belly of the fish and was he later on revived from death? There is unanimity among all Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish. He precariously hung between life and death and was miraculously saved from that situation; while any other person in his place would have died. Yet some subtle laws of nature, under the Divine command, must have conspired together to save him from death. Remember, we are not debating the issue of that being possible or not. We are only pointing out that Jesus, when he pointed out that the like of what happened to Jonah would also happen to him, he could only have meant that what everyone understood to have occurred in the case of Jonah would occur in his case. No one in the entire world of Judaism, whether in the land of Judea or anywhere else the Jews had dispersed and settled, would have received a different message from this claim of Jesus. They all believed that Jonah, miraculously or otherwise, survived for three days and nights in the belly of the fish and did not die in that period for a single moment. Of course we have our own reservations regarding this view. The story of Jonah as told to us in the Quran does not mention anywhere that it was for three days and nights that Jonah suffered his trials in the belly of the fish. However we return to the case in point and try to bring to light the actual similarities which were predicted by Jesus Christ between Jonah and himself. Those similarities spoke clearly of spending three days and nights in extremely precarious circumstances and a miraculous revival from near death, and not of coming back to life from the dead. The same, Jesus claimed, would happen in his case.”
So Jesus did not die on cross, though he was badly injured became unconscious, went into a coma, yet he survived and was taken to a room like grave, where he was treated by his confidant disciples, when his wounds got healed up he went to spread the gospel among the lost sheep of the Israel (10 tribes of Jews) who had dispersed and settled there, this had also been prophesized by Jesus.

One of the wise members MagnetMan has rightly observed in the thread ‘Jesus-Neither Literal Son of God nor God’ and I quote “The fact that I believe Jesus was a man, makes him all the more remarkable in my view. Gods can do anything. Men struggle to establish a truth.”
The real beauty of Jesus is in that he was a man who struggled, when one deifies him his position is lessened instead of increasing.
Jesus was s/o of the Virgin Mary, she was neither touched by a man for the birth of Jesus nor did she become a wife of God, though she gave a natural birth to a son. Yes, being a man he was a metaphoric son of God as per the proverbial usage common in the OT, he was never a literal son of God.
One could say it is perhaps due to such mythology woven around the person of Jesus that it has provided ground to one Dore Williamson, in this age of rational enlightenment, science and technology, that he has proclaimed that he/she is Jesus s/o Mary, Jesus’ Return, his 2nd arrival in the latter days. One may contact him on website www.dorewilliamson.com .His e-mail address is: dorewilliamson@verizon.net
Those who believe in the first mystery logically may believe in this one also.

Bandit · 03-02-2006, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inhumility

For one I want to make it clear that I believe in the person of Jesus, his love with one God, and God’s love with him, his message, his profound love with humanity, his sacrifice for the truth, his humility, his courage, his un-sinfulness - he is one of the outstanding personalities of the world, I really love him and the Christians.

everyone loves Jesus & I love Jesus & i love you too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inhumility

So Jesus did not die on cross, though he was badly injured became unconscious, went into a coma, yet he survived and was taken to a room like grave, where he was treated by his confidant disciples, when his wounds got healed up he went to spread the gospel among the lost sheep of the Israel (10 tribes of Jews) who had dispersed and settled there, this had also been prophesized by Jesus.

this part needs a little work. the tomb is what is compared to Jonah. 3 days in the belly of a whale, 3 days in the tomb - not - 3 days on the cross dying.

there would be no gospel to spread if Jesus had not died, been buried & rose from the dead. see, Jesus gave his life for the sheep because he loves the sheep. his scars remained but there were no bandages or paramedics. He did not need that to be resurrected from the dead.
His death, burial & resurrection itself IS the Gospel.
when he rose from the grave, he had a changed body that could never never be hurt again & no one could ever kill him again, thus to show us that we will have eternal life & be like him.

taijasi · 03-02-2006, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inhumility

The real beauty of Jesus is in that he was a man who struggled, when one deifies him his position is lessened instead of increasing.

I think this is something deserving of consideration ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by inhumility

So Jesus did not die on cross, though he was badly injured became unconscious, went into a coma, yet he survived and was taken to a room like grave, where he was treated by his confidant disciples, when his wounds got healed up he went to spread the gospel among the lost sheep of the Israel

And so is this. It doesn't lessen the importance of what Jesus taught one iota. In fact, it simply makes more sense, and is in complete concert with what the Yogis of the East have been able to do for millenia. If our emphasis of faith is on the life and works, the Message, of Jesus of Nazareth ... I fail to see how alternate views of his death (or lack thereof, according to common accounts & presentations), could matter in the least.

Unless, of course, we like those whom Christ rebuked, saying "a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign!" If people simply want magic tricks and "miracles," there are a host of other messiahs that performed them in Jesus' day. In India, for a few rupees, you can witness what apparently to some, are miracles. Do they prove that the given Yogi is god, or the son of god? We can pronounce them physically dead, and hours or days later, they can wake up again, walk & talk. Is their resurrection proof ... of Divinity? hmmmm ....

Not so.

andrew

Faithfulservant · 03-02-2006, 06:53 PM

I take it that Q hasnt seen that post yet? lol

We've all heard this before.. its not a new idea introduced to Christians by those trying to deny Christs ultimate sacrifice. If its posted for the sake of discussion its welcomed.. but Im afraid that its not. There is a section on this forum where these ideas are more than welcomed.. I would try posting it there it might receive the response you desire... As it is now.. Its not worthy of discussion in my book because its old and tired as far as Im concerned.

Peace.

wil · 03-02-2006, 07:12 PM

I've got to go back and find the historical background...but if I remember correctly the story of Jonah was a satyrical op/ed piece written about 400 BC...about a politician who wouldn't follow through with his appointed duties...

Again all memory....gotta see if I can find more..

and I also recall a discussion of Lazurus' rising and drugs that were being utilized to cause the three day coma...but we can't discuss this here.

Faithfulservant · 03-02-2006, 07:18 PM

The wolves.. ACK!

*looks for the Shepard*

Bandit · 03-02-2006, 07:26 PM

this thread aint about Jonah. it aint about Lazarus either. it is about changing the story of the gospel of Jesus Christ & turning it into a lie.

it is about removing our beliefs in the death burial & resurrection of Jesus. it is about making him not the Son of God. it is about going for the throat of the core of what Christians believe & what the 27 books of the NT affirm, confirm & reconfirm happened & it is about kicking against the pricks of the heart.

Jesus did NOT need any bandages or an IV or special ambulances & firemen to raise himself from the dead.

Bandit · 03-02-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

The wolves.. ACK!

*looks for the Shepard*

Quahom1 · 03-02-2006, 07:30 PM

First of all Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the Christian Forum. This is not the place to di-sect Jesus, or Christianity or anything that has anything to do with Christianity.

The whole of Christianity is a mystery, and has been since day one. To attempted to pick apart the life and essence of Jesus on the Christian forum is frankly a slap in the face to other Christians. This is becoming an attack on the foundations of Christianity and it will stop here and now. I strongly suggest if it hasn't been done, that you read the Code of Conduct here at CR. It can be found HERE

Furthermore, this discussion can be continued on the belief and spirituality board.

v/r

Quahom

wil · 03-02-2006, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

The wolves.. ACK!

*looks for the Shepard*

notta woof, just a sheep in woof's clothing that enjoys the discussion...

Quote:

it is about going for the throat of the core of what Christians believe

I think the breadth of christianity goes way beyond the conventional core today...

Bandit · 03-02-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

notta woof, just a sheep in woof's clothing that enjoys the discussion...I think the breadth of christianity goes way beyond the conventional core today...

not funny

Quahom1 · 03-02-2006, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

notta woof, just a sheep in woof's clothing that enjoys the discussion...I think the breadth of christianity goes way beyond the conventional core today...

No, it is a personal attack on a particular group's faith...and it will not be tolerated.

Q

taijasi · 03-02-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, it is a personal attack on a particular group's faith...and it will not be tolerated.

Q

No, Q, you're taking things a bit personally, methinks. As have others. There is no slap in the face intended. I stand by my belief(s) ... and just because they do not concur with yours, or even those of most of the rest of the world's 2.1 billion Christians ... does not mean that they are any less valid. Or that they are necessarily inaccurate, as far as facts go.

It is indeed unfortunate, that many wear their faith pinned to their sleeves, or would stand - firm, as militiamen, daring others to disturb the proverbial chip. No one seeks that kind of confrontation, and the display of bravado is totally unecessary. Perhaps the discussion does rightly belong on this thread ... and I have practically no knowledge of the texts being discussed.

But recall, if you will, that my opening line, after agreeing with inhumility, was that "It [the notion that Jesus didn't die on the cross] doesn't lessen the importance of what Jesus taught one iota." Sadly, there are those who cannot toleratethe slightest deviation from what is old hat, surely, to everyone who calls him or herself Christian. If differing ideas and interpretations, and beliefs, have no place at CR ... then indeed, proceed with the Inquisition.

Sol Invictus!

andrew

wil · 03-02-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, it is a personal attack on a particular group's faith...and it will not be tolerated.

Q

Just because my view of the scope of what a follower of Jesus could be differs from yours, does not make mine a personal attack....Now of course if I were in the Catholic Forum or the Baptist Forum...I would have to agree... And while I feel that this discussion as the other that inhumility started could rightly be in the christian forum, it really doesn't matter. You've booted them both out....to belief and spirituality...where now my beliefs be they christian or pagan or scientific are now within the realm.

I am saying that the 2.1 billion people who make up christianity won't agree on many tenents, rituals, beliefs of their denomination v. mine or yours...the path is much wider...that is what I said...truth is their are many chrisitans in those 2.1 billion that don't believe in the virgin birth, original sin, trinity, diety of Jesus, resurection....but they count themselves as christian because they believe the value of what Jesus spoke....whether any of these are true or not...

brucegdc · 03-02-2006, 08:48 PM

Moved to proper place in Comparative Studies from Belief & Spirituality.

03-02-2006, 05:29 AM	#1 (permalink)
inhumility New Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22	Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah For one I want to make it clear that I believe in the person of Jesus, his love with one God, and God’s love with him, his message, his profound love with humanity, his sacrifice for the truth, his humility, his courage, his un-sinfulness - he is one of the outstanding personalities of the world, I really love him and the Christians. Some of the learned members have observed in another thread in the Forum titled “Jesus-Neither Literal Son of God nor God” published in the Comparative Studies Board that Jesus was a “Mystery”. I would rather say humbly that let not Jesus be a closed book -a mystery, to me he was an open book for the mankind and please let him remain one like that as his greatness is in that. Let him not be a dogma, a myth, a fiction character, let every body see Jesus in reality, and in open broad daylight. He himself had in fact unfolded this “mystery”, if any, in the likeness of a brilliant sign of Jonah of which he promised and prophesized as a last sign. I narrate it in the words of Mirza Tahir Ahmad:- The Sign of Jonah “We prove from the Bible that God did not abandon him and saved him from the ignoble death upon the cross. This can be studied in the light of the facts relating to the period before the Crucifixion, as well as the facts of the Crucifixion itself and after it, as related by the New Testament. Long before that incident, Jesus promised that no sign would be shown unto the people other than the sign of Jonah. Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.’ (Matt 12:38–41) So before we determine what happened to Jesus, we must understand what happened to Jonah, because Jesus claimed that the same miracle would be repeated. What was the Sign of Jonah? Did he die in the belly of the fish and was he later on revived from death? There is unanimity among all Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish. He precariously hung between life and death and was miraculously saved from that situation; while any other person in his place would have died. Yet some subtle laws of nature, under the Divine command, must have conspired together to save him from death. Remember, we are not debating the issue of that being possible or not. We are only pointing out that Jesus, when he pointed out that the like of what happened to Jonah would also happen to him, he could only have meant that what everyone understood to have occurred in the case of Jonah would occur in his case. No one in the entire world of Judaism, whether in the land of Judea or anywhere else the Jews had dispersed and settled, would have received a different message from this claim of Jesus. They all believed that Jonah, miraculously or otherwise, survived for three days and nights in the belly of the fish and did not die in that period for a single moment. Of course we have our own reservations regarding this view. The story of Jonah as told to us in the Quran does not mention anywhere that it was for three days and nights that Jonah suffered his trials in the belly of the fish. However we return to the case in point and try to bring to light the actual similarities which were predicted by Jesus Christ between Jonah and himself. Those similarities spoke clearly of spending three days and nights in extremely precarious circumstances and a miraculous revival from near death, and not of coming back to life from the dead. The same, Jesus claimed, would happen in his case.” So Jesus did not die on cross, though he was badly injured became unconscious, went into a coma, yet he survived and was taken to a room like grave, where he was treated by his confidant disciples, when his wounds got healed up he went to spread the gospel among the lost sheep of the Israel (10 tribes of Jews) who had dispersed and settled there, this had also been prophesized by Jesus. One of the wise members MagnetMan has rightly observed in the thread ‘Jesus-Neither Literal Son of God nor God’ and I quote “The fact that I believe Jesus was a man, makes him all the more remarkable in my view. Gods can do anything. Men struggle to establish a truth.” The real beauty of Jesus is in that he was a man who struggled, when one deifies him his position is lessened instead of increasing. Jesus was s/o of the Virgin Mary, she was neither touched by a man for the birth of Jesus nor did she become a wife of God, though she gave a natural birth to a son. Yes, being a man he was a metaphoric son of God as per the proverbial usage common in the OT, he was never a literal son of God. One could say it is perhaps due to such mythology woven around the person of Jesus that it has provided ground to one Dore Williamson, in this age of rational enlightenment, science and technology, that he has proclaimed that he/she is Jesus s/o Mary, Jesus’ Return, his 2nd arrival in the latter days. One may contact him on website www.dorewilliamson.com .His e-mail address is: dorewilliamson@verizon.net Those who believe in the first mystery logically may believe in this one also.

03-02-2006, 06:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
Faithfulservant Executive Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 2,101	Re: Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah I take it that Q hasnt seen that post yet? lol We've all heard this before.. its not a new idea introduced to Christians by those trying to deny Christs ultimate sacrifice. If its posted for the sake of discussion its welcomed.. but Im afraid that its not. There is a section on this forum where these ideas are more than welcomed.. I would try posting it there it might receive the response you desire... As it is now.. Its not worthy of discussion in my book because its old and tired as far as Im concerned. Peace.

03-02-2006, 07:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
wil UNeyeR1 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 5,638	Re: Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah I've got to go back and find the historical background...but if I remember correctly the story of Jonah was a satyrical op/ed piece written about 400 BC...about a politician who wouldn't follow through with his appointed duties... Again all memory....gotta see if I can find more.. and I also recall a discussion of Lazurus' rising and drugs that were being utilized to cause the three day coma...but we can't discuss this here.

03-02-2006, 07:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
Faithfulservant Executive Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 2,101	Re: Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah The wolves.. ACK! looks for the Shepard

03-02-2006, 07:26 PM	#7 (permalink)
Bandit Executive Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,631	Re: Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah this thread aint about Jonah. it aint about Lazarus either. it is about changing the story of the gospel of Jesus Christ & turning it into a lie. it is about removing our beliefs in the death burial & resurrection of Jesus. it is about making him not the Son of God. it is about going for the throat of the core of what Christians believe & what the 27 books of the NT affirm, confirm & reconfirm happened & it is about kicking against the pricks of the heart. Jesus did NOT need any bandages or an IV or special ambulances & firemen to raise himself from the dead.

03-02-2006, 07:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
Quahom1 moderator inaslittleas... Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 7,451	Re: Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah First of all Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the Christian Forum. This is not the place to di-sect Jesus, or Christianity or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. The whole of Christianity is a mystery, and has been since day one. To attempted to pick apart the life and essence of Jesus on the Christian forum is frankly a slap in the face to other Christians. This is becoming an attack on the foundations of Christianity and it will stop here and now. I strongly suggest if it hasn't been done, that you read the Code of Conduct here at CR. It can be found HERE Furthermore, this discussion can be continued on the belief and spirituality board. v/r Quahom

03-02-2006, 08:48 PM	#15 (permalink)
brucegdc Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 415	Re: Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah Moved to proper place in Comparative Studies from Belief & Spirituality.

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