Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah

[taijasi]

It is the opinion of many, and I trust more than hearsay, that the Knights Templars, who were most certainly the faithful servants of Christ ... were known to "fraternize with the enemy." In their time, though fierce opponents on the battlefield, the Templars were quite respectful of the faith (and practice) of the Saracens, and it would appear that much was exchanged between them. If my recollection serves - and it has been more than 9 centuries - the Saracens were welcome in the Temple of Jerusalem, after the latter city had been taken by the Christians in 1099. Thus, accord between the Faith of Islam, and Christianity, dates back more than nine centuries.

Since I started this business about the crusades, I thought this point might be worth emphasizing.

Sol Invictus ...

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Since this will disappear anyway, now that the prevailing christian sentiment shall rule the day ... let's just remember whose history of tearing down who is greater:

Crusades
Inquisition
Witch Hunts

... all of which continues to this very day. To wit: You don't just have to play along nicely, the ongoing feeling of victimization on the part of christians - especially fundamentalist christians - which emerges each and every time there is the slightest thing said to challenge the prevailing, dominating view ..... THAT is demonstration enough for me, that there is no real interest in discussion. All that matters, is quoting scripture back and forth, until one turns blue in the face.


Sol Invictus

As a baptized Christian who is ashamed of the un-neighborly attitude taken against you, I will be creating a new thread that should illustrate just how far Christian dogmatists have strayed from the charitable path Jesus laid out for us. Please see Who is the Anti-Christ? in Comparative Studies.

[didymus]

I feel like i'm going to the back of the school for an after class fight.

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Dor

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Sorry I was told to be either hot or cold not lukewarm by Jesus Christ the Son of God, Saviour of the World, First and Last, The Word. So I will continue to wear my faith on my sleeve and respond to anyone trying to tear him down.

Dor, I am anxiously awaiting your reply to this scripture you quoted.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by didymus

I feel like i'm going to the back of the school for an after class fight.

yah, i know how much you llike to fight with Christians in your postings & try to make them look bad. punish the christians. make them pay!

Originally Posted by didymus

Dor, weren't these the words of John? Even if from Jesus, this verse is open for interpretation. If one is luke warm in their spiritual progress or their attitude towards God they will not receive the fullness. John says that God prefers that we would be cold or hot. Why would God want us cold rather than luke warm?? I think John was extra expressive in revelations because he was feeling the full brunt of the Roman army. He saw his faith and beliefs being threatened. You can imagine the duress under which he wrote this book.

that is not what it says. i dont see anything there about recieving the fulness. it says if you are lukewarm you get SPIT OUT. then you use the roman army...like Jesus really needs that to get his words out.

why? because God knows the hearts of men & he knows who really loves him & who is pretending & who is in & out of love. Jesus says dont be lukewarm, but you say it is ok to be lukewarm (you just dont get the fulness). it figures

i like my beverages hot or cold, not lukewarm. i also like my relationships hot, not cold or lukewarm.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Dor, I am anxiously awaiting your reply to this scripture you quoted.

It means that Jesus does not accept a fence walker, for He can do nothing with him. Either one is angry with or hates, or one is "jubilant" and loves Christ and Christ's ways. A fence walker does Christ no good...

v/r

Q

[didymus]

I agree that God would rather us not be luke warm in our walk. My point is I don't take this as a proof that God will damn us for a luke warm faith. When I said the fullness of God I meant the real fruits that can be reaped. If i go about my faith and walk with God in a so so fashion there won't be any real growth. I will stagnate and miss the real blessings and friut of God's love. That was my point. My reference to being hot or cold rather than lukewarm still stands. Why would God rather a person be cold rather than lukewarm and what do you take this to mean?

Bandit, I know you probably mistrust me but I am not trying to disprove Christianity. I like to look at scriptures in a variety of ways. The particular scripture that Dor quoted spoke to me but not in the same way you may read it. I take issue with people throwing scripture around condescendingly and arrogantly with the underlying implication that one will be barred from eternal life with God or relegated to the fiery pit if they don't believe or act a certain way.

[didymus]

My point with the Roman army was that John wrote this book after being exiled to Patmos after he had seen his faith and city get sacked and destroyed by the Romans. This book was believed to be written somewhere around 100ad or so. Am I correct? Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70ad. Everything was coming apart at the hinges especially for Christians and their faith.

[Bandit]

spue in that passage means to vomit. i always thought it meant spit, but it has a stronger meaning to it than just spit. IOW- lukewarm makes him sick & they are vomitted out. as in puke or throw up. i always flush my luke warm puke down the toilet & spit out lukewarm coffe because it is gross.
if one is cold, then he has never entered the love of God to begin with & there is no relationship being had.

John did not say these things. Jesus told John to write down what Jesus said to each angel of those churches. Johns isolation from the world is probably what made his special experience with Jesus happen, enabling him to better focus & write what he saw & heard, thus getting the message to us.

i dont think it is wise to try & walk the fence or be lukewarm when it comes to loving Jesus.

my 2 cents

[lunamoth]

I think that lukewarm statement gets abused a lot, as didymus said. A lot of time people use it to mean "if you don't believe exactly as I believe..." I think it speaks more about our passion for Christ. One can be passionate in their faith, but also hold moderate or liberal theological views. Lukewarm seems more like, "whatever..," not enough interest to care one way or another, as Q indicated.

2 c,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

lukewarm is like there was a relationship started & then it stopped. you go from cold & start to get hot, but stop at warm. OR you start out real hot & then the love fades away & you go back to a lukewarm 'whatever'.

some people grow apart, but they still love each other, it is just not the same HOT kind of love that once was there. you go your way, i go mine.
people fall in & out of love all the time & when they fall out of love, the realtionship changes too & people take two different paths as they grow apart...called seperation & divorce.

the church of Ephesus was told they had left their first love, but they did not love another as the Nicolaitions.

these letters were warning signs.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

lukewarm is like there was a relationship started & then it stopped. you go from cold & start to get hot, but stop at warm. OR you start out real hot & then the love fades away & you go back to a lukewarm 'whatever'.

some people grow apart, but they still love each other, it is just not the same HOT kind of love that once was there. you go your way, i go mine.
people fall in & out of love all the time & when they fall out of love, the realtionship changes too & people take two different paths as they grow apart...called seperation & divorce.

the church of Ephesus was told they had left their first love, but they did not love another as the Nicolaitions.

these letters were warning signs.

Right, Luna and Bandit, one cannot simply go with which ever way the wind blows. A western "dust devil" comes to mind. A "leaf" caught in the whirl of a dust devil can do nothing but go with the wind. A fence post buried deep in the ground (but surrounded by the dust devil) still hold's its position, hence the fence stays intact, hence the animals stay penned within the fence, hence the farmer does not lose his livestock. And when the whirlwind finally subsides, the "leaf" falls to the ground and rots, or is trampled by the livestock.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Here's another perspective on lukewarm: During WWII, the Allies were fighting the Axis powers well before the United States became involved in the war. We knew good and well what an evil force the Nazis were. We were well aware of their plans, their methods, and the dangers present. But not until the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the day living in infamy ... did the US go to war.

We were clearly lukewarm, as an entire nation, and should not have been, imo. It nearly cost us (as in, us, the world) the war. And inasmuch as that would have fairly well meant the victory of darkness over light, I do think this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Fortunately, the US threw her entire strength on the side of the Allies, and Germany was defeated. Yes, the world situation has changed somewhat, but WWII was certainly not the first instance in history where lukewarm occurred on a large scale.

Thank God we finally got off the fence.

Also, from a more personal point of view, I don't think God damns anyone. And I think we anthropomorphize a good bit when we picture "him" spitting anything out. Yes, I know the Biblical scripture, the passage being referenced. And I think that the fence-sitters ... have simply taken "the long way home" (as SuperTramp might put it). Or, as Jethro Tull sings:

So as you push off from the shore,
won't you turn your head once more
and make your peace with everyone?
For those who choose to stay,
will live just one more day
to do the things they should have done.

This lyric from Skating Away on the Thin Ice of the New Day, also seems relevant. There is such a wealth of Wisdom ... in music.

Namaskar to all,

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Here's another perspective on lukewarm: During WWII, the Allies were fighting the Axis powers well before the United States became involved in the war. We knew good and well what an evil force the Nazis were. We were well aware of their plans, their methods, and the dangers present. But not until the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the day living in infamy ... did the US go to war.

We were clearly lukewarm, as an entire nation, and should not have been, imo. It nearly cost us (as in, us, the world) the war. And inasmuch as that would have fairly well meant the victory of darkness over light, I do think this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Fortunately, the US threw her entire strength on the side of the Allies, and Germany was defeated. Yes, the world situation has changed somewhat, but WWII was certainly not the first instance in history where lukewarm occurred on a large scale.

Thank God we finally got off the fence.


Also, from a more personal point of view, I don't think God damns anyone. And I think we anthropomorphize a good bit when we picture "him" spitting anything out. Yes, I know the Biblical scripture, the passage being referenced. And I think that the fence-sitters ... have simply taken "the long way home" (as SuperTramp might put it). Or, as Jethro Tull sings:

So as you push off from the shore,
won't you turn your head once more
and make your peace with everyone?
For those who choose to stay,
will live just one more day
to do the things they should have done.

This lyric from Skating Away on the Thin Ice of the New Day, also seems relevant. There is such a wealth of Wisdom ... in music.

Namaskar to all,

andrew

Prior to the "official" entry of the US into WW II, American pilots entered the Canadian and RAF squadrans. Some of the best Canadian and British fighter pilots were "Americans"...imagine that. Prior to the "official" entry of the US into WW II the United States was shipping raw material and finished goods to Great Britian, enmasse. US warships were already escorting convoys between North America and Great Britian. (USCGC Campbell WPB-32) comes immediately to mind. One of the crucial reasons that England did not fall immediately to German onslaughts was because the Canadians and "AMERICANS" were shipping material as fast as possible. We just didn't send troops at any large number (primarily because we weren't asked).

One should know history before quoting it...

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

One should know history before quoting it...

I think I know history well enough in this case, Q. What you say does not change the fact that officially we were not involved, and "because we were not asked" sounds like a copout. I did not do anything to serve God ... because I was not asked. ???

In no way am I passing judgement on America, or Americans, by citing our national status as lukewarm during the early years of the war. As you have illustrated, some individuals (groups, units, etc.) were doing something. But the apathy that existed as the prevailing sentiment, then as now, bears witness for itself.

I think the real point - is that once we were involved, as a nation, the Axis powers had a force to reckon with. Perhaps, had Italy and Japan not taken up sides with Germany, things might have played out differently. But as it was, we had a hard fight ahead of us, and America did not save the day without great effort, and great cost in both blood and materials.

The life of the nation is reflected in the lives of its people, in more ways than one ... and vice versa. No mystery there, I guess.

andrew