Jesus-Neither Literal Son of God nor God

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Andrew -

Have you ever thought that perhaps ... and this is a distinct metaphysical possibility ... the man is the message?

Thomas

1 Corinthians 1

[wil]

The Jeffersonian Gospels are still in print today and available. Thomas Jefferson, Christian, founding father of the US, Author of the Declaration, Instrumental in the Constitution, 3rd President of the United States, part and parcel of In God we Trust...

He took out virgin birth, resurection, only begotten son....just the stuff we are discussing...

[Thomas]

Hi Wil -

Why? Because of his incredulity, I wonder?

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;" (1 John 1:1)

John, in his epistle, expresses that what the apostles spoke of was not myth, not metaphor, but an actual, physical reality.

+++

John, here and elsewhere, uses the word 'arche' which translates as 'beginning' but in much more than a temporal sense. It also translates as 'Cause' or 'Principle' ... couple this with Word, the translation of 'logos', which again has a far wider scope than the Latin 'verbum' from which the English 'word' stems, and you have quite a profound metaphysical statement - that Jesus Christ is the manifestation of the Principle of Being.

We are beings, according to that principle, but we are not the 'principle of being' as such, which alone is Jesus Christ - Son of the Father, or the Arche (Principle) of the Arche Anarchos (Principle without Principle).

Non-Christian (and not a few Christian) denominations insist that Christ is 'according to the principle' which makes him like us, as I am like you (but he's just better at it, you might say) .... but Scripture would seem to be adamant that Christ is not a saint, an avatar, a sage, a prophet, a teacher ... all of whom 'embody' the spirit of life to a greater or lesser degree ... but rather that Christ is the Incarnation of the Logos itself ...

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
(Colossians 1:15-17)

In short, to quote another American President, one should "either **** or get off the pot" - either accept revelation or deny it, but don't try and rewrite it - that's basically dishonest.

Thomas

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Andrew -

Have you ever thought that perhaps ... and this is a distinct metaphysical possibility ... the man is the message?

Thomas

Originally Posted by seattlegal

1 Corinthians 1

Without a doubt, Christ is not divided. Only his followers (of whatever faith or tradition), sometimes amongst themselves, and sometimes - within themselves!

I maintain, that Christianity could have existed without Jesus of Nazareth, since it did exist prior to his appearance as such. I don't actually like to imagine what this world might be like had Jesus not chosen to appear, but my own understanding/belief is that the path of approach to God has always existed, just as it always will. Truth is One, paths are many.

I will not eat the man, but I do have interest - in digesting his message. It remains useless, while not applied. And a man, nailed to a cross, may give me much to reflect upon ... but its greatest lesson, for me - is Renunciation. Would we be willing to give whatever is required ... if asked? Careful how you answer. The requirements for discipleship, last time I checked, are not to be taken lightly! Death - is not what's asked. Death to self, however, is! ... sighhhh. Now that's tough.


andrew

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

We are beings, according to that principle, but we are not the 'principle of being' as such, which alone is Jesus Christ - Son of the Father, or the Arche (Principle) of the Arche Anarchos (Principle without Principle).

Non-Christian (and not a few Christian) denominations insist that Christ is 'according to the principle' which makes him like us, as I am like you (but he's just better at it, you might say) .... but Scripture would seem to be adamant that Christ is not a saint, an avatar, a sage, a prophet, a teacher ... all of whom 'embody' the spirit of life to a greater or lesser degree ... but rather that Christ is the Incarnation of the Logos itself ...

Hmmm, this is where not all agree. Church Dogma certainly has a lot to say about it, but the Mystics, I find ... tend to agree with the notion of Elder among Brethren, which I believe is also a Biblical Teaching. Look it up!

By the way, whose scripture is "adamant" about all that? I think I can show otherwise. Incarnate Logos adds weight to each of those roles and titles. It does not change them. Also, Avatara is an incarnation of the Divine. Eastern concept, with Universal import. Truly Universal. Irrespective of tradition. From the Sanskrit: avatarati - He descends.

And the idea that via Christed Jesus, the Logos was incarnate - I buy that. But so is the Logos incarnate in every human heart. Again, degree of perfection. That, too, is Biblical. Oh, unless you toss Paul out the window. Many do, but if I'm to take Corinthians seriously, then I'll look a the rest of Paul, too.

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13) - [no doubt that could craftily be rendered 6 ways from Sunday, I'm sure ... but I'll take the 7th!]

I salute the Divinity in you,

andrew

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I maintain, that Christianity could have existed without Jesus of Nazareth,

lunamoth

[Thomas]

no doubt that could craftily be rendered 6 ways from Sunday, I'm sure ... but I'll take the 7th!

I think that's the one thing about you I can rely on.

Thomas

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by wil

The Jeffersonian Gospels are still in print today and available. Thomas Jefferson, Christian, founding father of the US, Author of the Declaration, Instrumental in the Constitution, 3rd President of the United States, part and parcel of In God we Trust...

He took out virgin birth, resurection, only begotten son....just the stuff we are discussing...

Man after my own heart.

[wil]

John, in his epistle, expresses that what the apostles spoke of was not myth, not metaphor, but an actual, physical reality.

From my understanding the Gospel of John is pretty much determined not to be written by the apostle...(due to the style differences) and it is questioned whether he even supervised the writing (as it is dated around 100 AD) I read other notes questioning his faculties in his elder years...

As for Thomas Jefferson and his removing of items he thought were contradictory to Christianity...I had read he removed those items which were obviously copied from previous religions yet added for affect and mystery...

[quote]I maintain, that Christianity could have existed without Jesus of Nazareth/QUOTE] In my mind if anthroplogists, archeaoligists, and historical discovery PROOVED Jesus never existed....It would have very little affect on my Christian beliefs, it would not tear any foundation out from under me, as as with Genesis, the value is in the allegory, the analogy, the understanding and lessons learned from the story...not any sort of historical accuracy that it revolves around.. As Andrew indicated Christianity concept was around prior to the stories or the man...

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Taijasi

I maintain, that Christianity could have existed without Jesus of Nazareth,

Originally Posted by lunamoth

lunamoth

lol ... okay, okay, at least a caveat is in order ...

Christianity as usually practiced and believed ... certainly holds Jesus of Nazareth - and faith in such, as central, and no distinction is made between the Nazarene, and the Christ.

But let's not forget, that the very use of these terms - chrestos, and Christos - long predated the Christian Era. They were imported from the Mystery Traditions, which taught that the spiritual neophyte, or candidate for Initiation, was chrestos. The chrest is worthy, and good, but as yet still possesses an unregenerated nature. Christos, simply means Annointed (kind of like Buddha simply means Awakened), and signified that the candidate had passed the last degree and become a full initiate. The Divine had become Incarnate.

It has been pointed out by some ... that what we know as Christianity is a syncretism of borrowings from Neoplatonism, neo-Pythogoreanism, Greek Gnosticism, and Hebrew religion. The word Christos was commonly used in the Greek translation of the Bible as a title of the Jewish Kings, those who had been anointed for reigning -- a symbolic rite taken originally from the Mysteries. In marked constrast, St. Paul's use of the word shows that he understood its true mystical meaning, but spoke with precaution in his public epistles or writings.

And the Hebrew Messiah, from mashiah, is the same as `Christos' - Annointed.

sighhh ... but I've said nothing here that everyone doesn't already know, correct?

andrew

[MagnetMan]

[quote=wil]
As for Thomas Jefferson and his removing of items he thought were contradictory to Christianity...I had read he removed those items which were obviously copied from previous religions yet added for affect and mystery...
quote]

Stone Age animism (a naive, unquestioning belief/contact with universal spiritual forces) got diluted in the Bronze Age, as man became preoccupied with reorganizing the social order into more complex human relationships. The tedium of chore-based existence introduced sloth, laziness and deceit into the former innocent hunter/gatherer psyche. Shamans (gifted psychic adepts - ie former animists) were then required to mediate between guilty individuals and their ancetral spirits - who were then expected to take their prayers on to God. As clans evolved into powerful entities, each claimed exclusive rights to the ear of God - via the divinity of their original clan founder. So we warred our way into clan union via ruthless tyrants - into the Iron Age of nationalism, all believing in the Divine appointment of our kings. Seen from the roots up, everything in our religious scriptures (forged into rigid dogma to keep national unions intact) is simply an evolution of the common spiritual foundations of animism and shanism. Arguments over who is god and who's god is higher, without factoring in the primitive origins, leaves one stranded high up in the twisted branches of the family tree, trying to trace our way back down through a labyrinth of ethnic taboos, to our common roots. Why not just go directly to the root and start there? By the grace of the Gods I was fortunate to be born in Africa amd grew up among a faithful simple brotherhood who remained at mankind's ancetral home. while the prodigal protestant son went abroad to gambled with his inheritance. God knows that I am no scholar, and hopefully do not sound all-knowing, but I have found that Africa keeps my bearings while I am abroad, as I listen to all the endless snapping of twigs up above as former monkeys loose their innate grip on reality and grasp at fresh air.

[gteeter]

You seem to have alot of information here, but the history you describe seems to be soiled with all sorts of personal and selfish interest. We have a scripture, "there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end it leads to death." Certainly, a wise man would choose otherwise. Secular history and the Bible (66 books) proves that Jesus not only lived, but was a prophet, a man and God. Read the book of John, if you doubt. He performed miracles and raised the dead and was raised from the dead himself.

The real people who gamble are those who here the word, but immediately forget what they heard and never ask God to reveal himself to them so that they can differential truth from untruth. A wise person will seek truth until he finds it and like a precious stone sell all he has to purchase it!

[inhumility]

Hi!
The scriptures of all Revealed Religions are, be they Noah-ides, Jews Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs etc whoever and wherever there are people claiming they are or they had in the past received God’s word, all included provide the sum total of the revealed stock of guidance provided by God to man- a common treasure for the whole humanity as against the atheism or not-believing who have received non. Scriptures are Word of God, if they contain the words of God in the original language in which it were revealed, rather than meanings in the form of translations or different versions or interpretations of somebody or are written observations of a scribe/disciple /apostle or comments of simply a reader/writer .Science is the ACT of God depicted in the whole universe, not what the scientists say (scientists so often talk of theories, that are not yet science, strictly speaking, unless these are considered as Scientific Laws. The Scientific Laws are not creation of the scientists, they just discover with experiments what has already been created by God, they only verify with their experiments and close observations what already exists and created by God.
The source of Word of God and Act of God is the same i.e. one God-the Supreme Creator, the All–Knowing and All-Wise, therefore there cannot be logically any contradiction in both.
If there is prima facie a contradiction or difference, a gap in the two, then this has to be investigated truthfully and logically, the fault if any is of the humans involved. Either the Word of God has been wrongly interpreted/translated or interpolated by the humans or yet a Law of Science is in the process of making/not yet fully discovered. This would require reconciliation of the two with facts and one with the fault would be amended/updated accordingly .The religious people ,being human beings, are also prone to err, get carried away into superstitions , myths ,unreal mysticism due to their becoming over zealous or sometimes under pressure, the same is true of the scientific people ( not the scientists).

The faithful believes and has to believe the truth whichever and wherever and wherefrom the truth has emerged , with continuous search instead of the blind faith which is yet another form of not- believing that causes believing in myths and fiction rather the facts. This is the system from God.
Evolution of human thought and progress of scientific knowledge in every branch of knowledge provides us ground to evolve our centuries old religious concepts, while every thing else is progressing , adapting to the new realities which surface due to new knowledge and technology, on the basis of undisputed facts brought by history , archaeology or sciences etc. The old concepts of clergy, theologians were mostly based on their limited knowledge of that time, which needs to be updated and not to be followed blindly as the new but real facts have emerged. Why to believe in the religious establishment when it is proved wrong.
The original post is not intended to provoke any controversy or to weaken faith of the Christians or it is not an attempt unnecessarily to convert them to some other faith. This is intended to make Christians a better Christians which fact is also evidenced by splitting of Christianity into some two thousands sects.
After all there is some discrepancy somewhere. This is every individual’s own duty to do this exercise himself; others can only help, which is the true intention.
I learn that the original post has been moved from Christianity Board. I don’t have any complaint in this regard. However, I would like to point out that this would convert Interfaith-Dialogue or Comparative Religions Forum to a sort of monologue forum, one faith religious forum. Since no conflicting debate is intended, as I abhor such debates. One enjoys and one’s knowledge gets improved by wisdom of the learned fellow human beings who think otherwise. With their wise and free comments other side of the concept is presented which provides one rich food of thought and rather than creating confusion one improves ones’ thoughts and beliefs which is only possible when we cross-examine our concepts with the opposing concepts. It is a positive exercise, there is no compulsion, and it develops free, logical and rational thinking, after all every body has finally to decide for himself. It would have been more appropriate if the original post had been displayed on both the Boards to make most use of wise people of both the boards.

When one cannot reconcile science and religion one normally does not share or discuss such thoughts with others especially with the clergy, the so called religious people, imbued with extra zeal that normally happen to be very narrow minded and close hearted, not to speak of the opposing views, one even does not discuss within the same faith people. By and by such silent people sometimes become atheists. Most of the people (be Christians or for that matter of any other religion) seldom go to the Churches (or synagogues or mosques or temples), which shows that inwardly they have become dormant in their faith or nearing or turned atheists or not-believing. These peoples have to be “awakened” in the faith by providing them the amended facts, the God sent reality without man–woven myths, which is only possible be reconciling Word of God with Act of God or vice versa, in the light of and updating with the new undoubted facts which are common treasure of man, or searching the true word of God from the existing scriptures, also a common Treasure of man. All believers of any religion have to make concerted efforts for revival of their faith to salvage growing silent atheists or dormant believers of the faith. The question is not of converting of a Christian to any other faith more important issue is of reclaiming the present Christian to the true Christian, Jew to a true Jew, Muslim to the true Islamic faith, Sikh to the true Sikhism etc, all bowing to the true will of God. To me, these are the natural allies-being believers in one God and must be loved. Inter-faith dialogue or study of the Comparative Religions is logically done to bridge this gap a man made gap between the Word of God ( the scripture) and Act ff God (pure laws of science ). The decision again rests with the individual.

[Dondi]

You statements ring true, inhumility. That fairly represents what the CR board is all about, although I respect the opinion of athiests/agnostics if their disbelief is genuine and well thought out. You cannot make someone believe in God when such is difficult, if not impossible, to objectively prove. My hope in this forum concerns those who are dormant in their beliefs will be enlightened to possibilities and areas to be explored in search of the truth, whatever that may be. Moreover that their lives will be enhanced because of a renewed hope in the things unseen.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by Dondi

You statements ring true, inhumility. That fairly represents what the CR board is all about, although I respect the opinion of athiests/agnostics if their disbelief is genuine and well thought out. You cannot make someone believe in God when such is difficult, if not impossible, to objectively prove. My hope in this forum concerns those who are dormant in their beliefs will be enlightened to possibilities and areas to be explored in search of the truth, whatever that may be. Moreover that their lives will be enhanced because of a renewed hope in the things unseen.

Amen Brother!
Or, as the shamans of Africa say Siavuma!