Jesus is not God....part 2

[shannon]

Originally Posted by bruce

Look what Jesus Christ said John 4:23,24 "But the hour cometh and now is,when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:for the Father seeketh such to worship him.God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Hi Bruce. You appear to have a habit of posting a catch all statement and arrogantly avoiding any responses... which is very consistent with my experience with JW's. They cannot listen and reason with you... they are always trying to 'convince' you of their own reasoning. Very poor listeners. Why? Fear of thinking anything other than what the WT teaches, and because you don't know the Holy Spirit who if you did know... could guide you... intead of the WT organization guiding you. Faith in the seen is not faith at all. Compare Holy Spirit with WT.

So... Please answer these 4 questions.

1. Did Jesus accept worship?

2. Does the WT allow worship of Jesus or not? Has that always been their doctrine or has it changed over time?

3. Who is the only One we must worship?

4. If the "Word was 'a' God" (john 1:1) then was Jesus a True God or a False God since there is only 1 true God (never was and never will be another, right and all others are False Gods.

I am not stuck in my beliefs. I am willing to listen to you. I eagerly await your reply so that I can better understand and consider whether your God is the God of the Bible.

Thank you.

[Mus Zibii]

I hate to continue to 'attack' JWs, but this site (after a good skim) does a better job at explaining some things than I have, and provides reproductions of examples, too.

Here's the explanation behind 'I am'.

http://neirr.org/egoeimi.htm

The link to the mainpage is at the bottom. But it also goes after some other religions, so don't explore unless you want to chance being offended.

[shannon]

No offense meant to JW's but I believe Bruce only posts and never answers because JW's are forbidden from reading literature other than that WatchTower and expecially anything that questions the WT doctrine.

I bet he never even reads the responses... and if he does... he cannot post or he is contradicting WT doctrine which is cause for disfellowship.

Bruce can you confirm or deny this please? I don't mean offense... just trying to understand you.

[Mus Zibii]

You know, I never thought of that. What exactly are the restrictions? It seems insulting to say that, but my best friend in grade school was JW, and I remember the constant worry about the possibility of him signing a birthday card, or having the concept of free election stressed in class (he'd have to step into the hallway).

[Ben57]

Hello Shannon,



I will start to answer these question for you one at a time. But first I wouls like to say that I do not know Bruce and I do not know why he has not answerd any of these questions. Second to the person that said JWs are not allowed to read material from other people well that just is not true.

I will deal with this forst question only for now and aanswer the others when readers are satisfied with this one question. NOTE: I will not use the NWT as most people are under the missleading idea that it is inacurate, so I will use may different Bibles and Non JW dictionaries.

=shannon

1. Did Jesus accept worship?

First I would like you to think about just what you mean you mean by "worship"? Second are you aware that there are three different words used for "worship" in the Christian Greek Texs of theBible"? I mention that because in tranlating into English some translators found it easier to to simplified renderings of Greek words into English. Unfortunately this can have adverse consequences on the readers as pre concived ideas about a word might spring to mind and not the idea that the original writer had in mind.

I will give you the rendering from Strongs Greek Lexicon first and then from the New American Standard Greek Lexicon. The Numbers refer to where the word is in Strongs Lexicon, and the three lexicons that I have use the same numdering system I will preface each with with ST (Stongs) or NAS (New american Standard) In the quotes from NAS you will see other numbers. These refer to the amount of times that particular Greek word was translated in to English with the different meanings.

(ST) 4352. proskunew proskuneo pros-koo-neh’-o; from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship.

(NAS) 4352. proskunew proskuneo; from 4314 and kunew kuneo (to kiss); to do reverence to:—
NAS-bow down (1), bow down before (1), bowed down (1), bowed down before (2), bowing before (1), bowing down (1), prostrated himself before (1), worship (32), worshiped (17), worshipers (1), worshiping (1), worships (1).

Notice The basic meaning of this particular word is (.. to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand);So proskuneo is used for anyone of highr position. A Governer, a King, God, in order to show due respect for their possition. This I think is clear by the 12 different ways the NASV uses the word.


The next word to be translated “worship” is



(ST) 4576. sebomai sebomai seb’-om-ahee; middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to revere, i.e. adore:—devout, religious, worship.



(NAS) 4576. sebw sebo; a prim. vb.; to worship:—



NAS-devout (1), God-fearing (3), worship (4), worshiper (2).





Please notice the way the NASV shows that this particular word is used in relation to religious worship



The next Greek word used is



(ST) 3000. latreuw latreuo lat-ryoo’-o; from latriv latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render, religious homage:—serve, do the service, worship(-per).





And from the ASV



(ASV) 3000. latreuw latreuo; from latriv latris (a hired servant); to serve:—



NAS-offer (1), serve (15), served (1), service (1), serving (1), worship (1), worshiper (1), worshipers (1).





Now for the next word



(ST) 2151. eusebew eusebeo yoo-seb-eh’-o; from 2152; to be pious, i.e. (towards God) to worship, or (towards parents) to respect (support):—show piety, worship.





(NAS) 2151. eusebew eusebeo; from 2152; to show piety towards:—



NAS-practice piety (1), worship (1).





Word Number 5



(ST) 2356. yrhskeia threskeia thrace-ki’-ah; from a derivative of 2357; ceremonial observance:—religion, worshipping.





From NASV



(NAS) 2356. yrhskeia threskeia; from a der. of 2357; religion:—



NAS-religion (3), worship (1).





So do you start to see a problem that could easily arise? The wrong use of an English word for a Greek word can and does cause misunderstandings.



No the only word used in relation to Jesus is the first one proskuneo. This having a braod usage for any one in authority. None of the words that denote relgous worship are used of Jesus.



So Yes Jesus did receive worship of honour or dignity die to him as the Son of God but he did not ever receive worship of a religious nature.

[Mus Zibii]

Eh... that's a good lot of fooling around with semantics and if it weren't for so many contrary remarks in the gospel story it'd make a substantial argument. But semantics aside, Jesus demands (one of the elements of Christianity I ignore because I find it adverse to my preferred interpretation) worship, demands to be acknowledged as a singular passage into the favor of god. Now, apart from the gospel of John his identity doesn't appear to be synonymous with god. Mark's Jesus seems to be a prophet, Matthew's the Messiah, Luke's Son of God, and finally John's as God himself. Those descrepancies can be harmonized to fit virtually any interpretation, except possibly the JW's preference.

[Ben57]

You may view that as "a good lot of fooling around with semantics ", and you are entitlted to view it that way. The question I was answering was "Was Jesus Worhiped". The simple answer is he received due hour and "worship" as someone in a higher positio. That facts are Jesus NEVER received religous worship only honour due to one of higher rank. Even in Johns writtings Jesus is kept seperate from God.

All the apostles writtings are in complete harmony with each other, and The JW view of Jesus being a created individual and the Son of God is in full harmony with All the Bible. But fro now I am answering the 4 questions posted to Bruce aboyt "worship". Respond with reason as to why my concluions above are wrong. instead of avoiding the issue.

[Mus Zibii]

Well, due to opinions like 'all the apostles writtings are in complete harmony with each other' I'm not sure how possible such a discussion is.

I apologize for saying 'a good lot of fooling around with semantics'. While technically, that's what I meant it sounded more rude than I intended it. I only glimpsed at the word-study and it seems accurate, but I don't think there's enough ambiguity in the words to warrent such examination. Certainly in the instances of the 'I am', but otherwise not so much.

The most difficult element of this discussion is my lack of clarity of what JW's doctrine is. I was unaware that Jesus is thought of as 'son of god'. Does that mean that Mary bore a unique offspring or fragment of God that sets Jesus apart from every other religious character? If so, then that seems to go against Bruce's assertion that Jesus was a man.

Anyway, back to Jesus' begging veneration. First off, I'm excluding the line where Jesus says 'bring those who will not worship me before me and slay them'. I just don't know what the hell to make of that line. I'd prefer it just disappear.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 10:38 ...that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father,

Joh 16:23Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever, ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in nthee, that they also may be one in us.

I'm neglecting to quote the epistles of Paul and the other fraudulent epistles. Though these say clearly that Jesus is God, JW acceptance of them is as of yet unclear to me. I'm also leaving out the numerous so-called prophecies of Jesus from the OT which clearly reference the Hebrew god in many cases. If nothing else such would show that the authors modelled the story after a mystical midrash of Pslams, Isaiah, etc.

Rev 1:8 I am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.

Compare to:

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside, me there is no God.

[Ben57]

G'day from Oz

The idea of examining original Greek Words is extreemly important in understand the Bible. To see how they are used and the context they are used in and the way different translators use them.

I wiil email you a discution on the JW view of Jesus if you like.

I can answer all those texts you quote bellow not using the NWT but any other Bible as well as the lexicons that I have to show thaT Jesus is not God. Beside the original Greek words used the context is also important.

But not to side step just yet the topic was the worship of Jesus. Lets stay on that for now unless you have nothing more to say on the use of that word in relation to Jesus.

Perhaps we should start a new thread so that other readers know that this discution is happening.

[I, Brian]

New threads are always welcome, to help keep discussions focussed on particular issues.

[shannon]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

New threads are always welcome, to help keep discussions focussed on particular issues.

The title of this tread is appropriate and the above few posts would be relevant to this as well as a new thread.

We are inside of question 1 of 4 questions I posted above. The topic at the moment is "Did Jesus accept Worship" and we're looking at the definition of worship as translated from the greek. This may answer questions 2 (in part) and 3 as well.

Ben57: Thank you for your response I will respond to the issue of proper translation from the greek, both specifically and generally, shortly. My internet from home is supposed to be up on friday.

[Mus Zibii]

Again, I have to say that language isn't at fault here. By the restrictions of logical fallacy, this is called a 'straw man'. There are curious vague passages, but there are far more that outweigh what is at play here. And if Christ claiming to be the sole pathway to salvation isn't demanding worship, I don't know what is.

In the gospel of John the 'jews' try to kill Jesus for the blasphemey of 'because you, a mere man, claim to be God'.

Jesus replied:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

NOTE! He did not say, worship me not, I ain't God. By JW standards, Jesus is lying about himself. Now, as the Moslems would claim, this gospel might be heretical and corrupted by fools, but that's the only out I can see.

[Mus Zibii]

I'm going to exploit the conception that the four gospels are harmonious. Keep in mind, this isn't my belief, but for the sake of the argument it seems permissible.

On accepting worship:

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship (proskuneo) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship (proskuneo) him (angel of the lord which JW's say is of the rank of Jesus). And he said unto me, See thou do it not:I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

Rev 22:8 And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (proskuneo) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not:

Act 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out.

Jesus did not turn away from worship:

Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped (proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped (proskuneo) him.

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship (proskuneo) him.

Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped (proskuneo) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Luk 24:52 And they worshiped (proskuneo) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshiped (proskuneo) him: but some doubted.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

By JW standards (and Moslems), Jesus let these men sin.

Why did they 'worship' him?

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be, in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man,he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

[Ben57]

Hi Mus Zimii

I apreciate that you are stepping outside of your belife sytem in answering this, but can I please ask that you keep the texts that you use ti those that directly relate to the "worship" of Jesus.

I havn't got the time right now to answer all the texts bellow but I will give a comment on a couple of them. Before i do thou, may I make a suggestion that will aid in this discution and any others? When you quote a text can you please say why you are using that particular text. An explanation as to what you are thinking will help me and possibly others understand what it is you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by Mus Zibii

On accepting worship:

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship (proskuneo) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

This si an interesting text. I am not sure exactly what it is you are trying to say with this, but it does highlight the need to understand the Greek words being used here.

First you rightly point out that the word 'worship' here is derivied from the Greek (proskuneo). There is another word in this text that adds extra meaning to that word. I will now copy some information from another Lexicon, the On LineBible Greek Lexicon (GOBL) as it gives some extra details about the word (proskuneo)

from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); TDNT-6:758,948; v

AV-worship 60; 60

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

3a1) to the Jewish high priests

3a2) to God

3a3) to Christ

3a4) to heavenly beings

3a5) to demons

As you can see this word is used in wide range of settings. So the first part of that Text in affect is saying

"Thou shalt Kneel 'down and show respect' to the Lord thy God". Now to get to the other part of that text that is important ...."and him only shalt thou serve.." The important word here is the word 'serve'. This is the Greek word as per Strongs

3000. latreuw latreuo lat-ryoo’-o; from latriv latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render, religious homage:—serve, do the service, worship(-per).

Rememder this from my previous post. Now I will post the extra wording from the GOBL

from latris (a hired menial); TDNT-4:58,503; v

AV-serve 16, worship 3, do the service 1, worshipper 1; 21

1) to serve for hire

2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen

2a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship

2b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship 2b1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office

This word renderd serve has by far a more religous role to it. Therefor to express the meaning of the original writer in more padded out way that text is telling us

"Thou shalt Kneel 'down and show respect' to the Lord thy God, and to him alone shalt though perform sacred service".

Remember as stated earlier the word (proskuneo) has a very wide usage, and just becuase it is used of one person does not mean that a second person receiving (proskuneo) is the same as the first. It was given to God, Jesus, High Priests amd even demons. The important thing to remember here is that humans wer due (proskuneo).

The only other text that I have time for at this time is

Originally Posted by Mus Zibii

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship (proskuneo) him (angel of the lord which JW's say is of the rank of Jesus). And he said unto me, See thou do it not:I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:

The first thing I would loke to point out is that JWs do not say that the (angel of the lord ....is of the rank of Jesus) We say it was just an angel.

Remember the word proskuneo was used of those of higher rank, but in this verse the angel is saying "do not kneel before me as I am also a fellow servant" The angel is putting 'himself' on the same level as John not worthy of receiving any reverace as some one of higher rank when John obviously thought that the angel was.

So both those texts show that correct usage of the word "worship" as translated from the Greek proskuneo. The same usage as referd to Jesus as recognising him "Jesus" as being of a higher rank, and there was nothing improper of his followerers doing so just as it was not improper to givethis sort of worship to the priests.

[Mus Zibii]

My reasoning for quoting Mat 4:10 was to establish the gospel understanding of worship. To look at its numerous connotations is to miss the context (Equivocation). In one instance Jesus says its wrong to 'worship' (with all its meanings) that which is not God. Paul freaks when he is worshiped as God. The Angel of God tells John not to worship him. Jesus, when bowed to, when his feet are embraced, praises he/she that prostrates himself/herself, especially so when Thomas identifies him as God. That was the point of my quotes, which you don't need to address on an individual basis unless you just want to.

Now, I'm thinking you consider the act of 'worship' as a church-related veneration. I believe this to be a modern misconception of 'worship' (see the thread elsewhere on this issue of semantics). But even if this is not so, you have the establishment of the Christian church/movement/etc. Jesus says, ask of God in my name. The Apostles say, come to God through Jesus. By any standard, this is 'worship' rightly or wrongly. There's a saying that deals with this semantics issue. Not all dogs are poodles, but all poodles are dogs. Not all worship is righteous, but all righteousness receives worship.

As I said before, you can dismiss the texts, say its a result of corruption or Satanic intervention, but to look at the instances where Jesus seems to indentify himself as something less than divine and reconcile his veneration by the Apostles and veneration in the book of John from that point is error. But here's the rub, every sect makes its own rules on how to reconcile the New Testament. And thus we return to the contention that the four gospels are perfectly in agreement.

If its any consolation, the acceptance of Jesus as God wasn't immediate. It certainly didn't become the orthodox interpretation until Irenaeus attempted to bring untity to the various sects during Christian persecution. The different sects worshipped different gospels. Some wanted to combine many gospels into one, but Irenaeus allowed the four most similar ones to represent the 'true' Christendom. It was an olive branch to the sects that might otherwise have not joined in his 'universal church' which was later adapted into Catholicism.

I have no illusions that I'm going to change your mind, and even if you did concede any point of contention I don't know what exactly that'd accomplish (I don't belong to a sect). What Christian interpretation boils down to, is conflict between church history and the heavily embellished creeds of various denominations (all of whom demand to be worshiped as singular). If this were a debate between JW and a secular view of Christian history, the burden of proof would rest on you. And the evidence that the JW doctrine existed before 1881 (or lack thereof) trumps point by point scriptural analyisis.