Jesus is not God....part 2

[mee]

Originally Posted by Ahanu

Hi, I believe the Christian belief is that after Jesus' death and after He was taken up to Heaven, He resumed His title as Jehovah. I have no more information to give you other than this.

shall we see what the bible says ,

But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. Hebrews 10;12


(Romans 8:34) Who is he that will condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.



(Colossians 3:1) If, however, YOU were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God....


he was serving as high priest at Gods right side .

but now in these days that we are living in , he has been given great aurthority , he has been given kingship .DANIEL 7;13-14and he is a ruling king in the heavenly kingdom goverment ,Daniel 2;44 that God set up in 1914 inline with bible prophecy and chronology.



when Jesus went back to heaven he had to wait a while to recieve his legal right of kingship ,but now he is a ruling king and he is accomplishing great things especially since 1914 .
and he is behind a great preaching work that is global .


And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14
and he even has ANGELS working along with him directing this great global preaching work .

he sure is a reigning king , and he is acomplishing great things .

(Revelation 14:6) And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

thrillling times indeed

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Before ever saying our father which art in heaven, christ was god in heaven as well, he was the word of god who created all things, sent to be salvation, and who upholds all things, for all things were created thru him and for him. being born a man, he was under the law and emptied himself to become a servant. so it is not a mystery that he prayed to god the father in heaven, as he was a man as well. but he was also god and received prayer and worship to those who sought the truth, those eyes were opened and saw that he was the messiah. he could not speak or do anything other than what the father in heaven would do, as he is the express image of god, whatever the son does the father does and whatever the father does the son does--they are one. every attribute of the father in heaven is in christ. god is salvation, christ is salvation, god raised him, christ raised himself, god is glorified, christ is glorified, god is worshiped, christ is worshiped, god forgives sins, christ forgives sins, god can read people hearts, christ can read peoples hearts, god sits on the throne in heaven, christ sits on the throne in heaven, god always existed, christ always existed, god is holy, christ is holy, god is YHWH, christ is YHWH.

Is Jesus the only one filled with the Holy Ghost? Is Jesus the only one who can forgive sins?

[Ahanu]

Saltmeister, what you said on page 8 is attuned to my beliefs.

You said:

What do they suggest? They seem to imply that "Jesus is the concept" leading to God. That must also mean that God is projecting Himself through Jesus, and that Jesus is in some way revealing God.

In that sense, Jesus "is" God because the meaning of God is being conveyed by him to those around him. God is not being experienced through anything or anyone else except through him. What that would have meant was that God had chosen to localise His interaction with human beings in Jesus. That kind of hints at Colossians 2:9 that the "fullness of the Deity" dwells in bodily form.

God was channelling Himself through Jesus and wanted people to experience him that way. If God projects Himself through Jesus, Jesus takes on the identity of God, even though he is not God materially and in substance.

Abdul-Baha gave a simple explanation to explain this mystery. By the way, think of Colossians 15:1.

A Divine Manifestation is as a mirror reflecting the light of the Sun. The light is the same and yet the mirror is not the Sun.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 66-67

Perhaps there is a way to reconcile this view with Surah 3:64. So one can definitely say that God has no partner, yet the fullness of God's light shown in Jesus. So one can also say "He is the image of the invisible God" (Col 15:1).

Well, I am simply adding a thought, and I can not proceed any further, because I have not really investigated the matter.

O SON OF DUST!
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved...
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Is Jesus the only one filled with the Holy Ghost? Is Jesus the only one who can forgive sins?

jesus sends the spirit and wishes for everyone to be filled with it and not reject it--he has the authority to do that, and no one else. if one receives the holy spirit, one receives christ, and if you receive christ, you receive the father. yes, only jesus can forgive sins that one would be judged in heaven for doing that could lead to everlasting damnation. if a disciple ever forgave a sin, it is because christ specifically gave them the spirit and the authority to do that for the spreading of the gospel and building of the kingdom so they know they are of god. but it is not man's authority, it is god's authority which is also christ. and if you forgive a man for a sin, it is right to do so, because god will not forgive your sin, if you do not forgive also. as we forgive, it is taking a step in the direction that pleases god. however, only god knows a man's heart and if he is truly sorry. if you forgive someone of their trespass, they still need to reconcile with god, which is christ.

[Operacast]

I was somewhat surprised at no one's attempting to grapple with the five Jesus remarks taken from -- arguably -- the earliest textual strata in the various Gospels, canonical and non-canonical. I do appreciate that it may entail some pretty close reading of some pretty knotty passages. Still, I just wanted to be sure to give others some space first before jumping in myself. I suppose it may jump-start some discussion after all if I jump in now with my two cents.

For what it's worth, I erred on the side of inclusion rather than exclusion when it came to any remarks in these earliest strata -- any -- that might at all seem to imply direct familial connection to God. In fact, while I frankly take the modern scholarship (the scholarship that singles out the Q remarks in Luke, the Vat./Sin. Mark and the Thomas gospel as the earliest strata) very seriously, I don't necessarily view all five remarks that I singled out as implying the same thing. I merely bent over backwards to keep in anything -- anything -- that could possibly be viewed as a statement claiming divine "blood ties". I wanted to see which remarks would be viewed as clearly unambiguous by others -- if any.

Personally, I find more ambiguity than not in a few of these (not all).

On the one hand, Luke:22:28-30 seems pretty overt:



"Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."



It's hard to see this as anything other than a direct expectation of personal, individual and divine inheritance.

On the other hand, Luke:10:21-22 might be taken various ways -- I feel:



In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."



Does this simply mean that the Son is indeed Jesus, and that only the Son Jesus, being the Son, can really hope to reveal the identity of his Father (i.e., God) to others? Or is something broader meant? Does one become a Son of God by dint of certain behavior or certain insights, and is "knowing" the Father less a matter of clarifying the Father's identity and more a matter of gaining a wider insight into the Father's essence? Is it reading too much into this to parse this as follows? --

"All things have been revealed to my understanding by an unusual spiritual connection to the Father of us all, and only the Father is able to single out those who can be his spiritual Son by their unusual level of connection and spiritual understanding, and only the Son who has had this special insight into the Father can know if he is a true Son of the Father. And when the Son knows that he is the Son of the Father by the awakening of a deep insight into the essence of what makes the Father tick, then knowledge by others of the Father is also possible, especially through the Son's personally choosing to reveal the Father's essence to those others, who likewise learn deeply of the essence of the Father, thus becoming Sons and Daughters of the Father as well."

-- Is this reading too much into this passage?

As for Mark:14:61-62, there seems to be a directly claimed connection to divinity here:



But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said, "I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."



Query: Is this as direct and overt as Luke:22:28-30?

The Thomas ones also split off -- for me -- into tantalizing versus overt. Thomas:61 --



Jesus said, "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and other will live." Salome said to him, "Who are You, man, that You, as though from the One, have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?" Jesus said to her, "I am He who exists from the Undivided. I was given some of the things of my Father." <Salome said,> "I am Your disciple." <Jesus said to her,> "Therefore I say, if he is <undivided>, he will be filled with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness."



-- seems more tantalizing than overt. Just who is the Father here? Is the "Undivided" and "my Father" one and the same? Or are they two different entities? Could there even be a joke here aimed at a partly endearing single-mindedness in the ways of Jesus' earthly father, Joseph, and is Jesus self-deprecatingly conceding his own tendency to stubbornness (far-fetched, yes, but does anything in this text directly contradict such a reading)? This entire passage just doesn't seem all that straightforward to me.

As for the other Thomas remark, do others here also see it as essentially implying the same thing as Luke:22:28-30? Or is it less straightforward than the Luke remark? It's Thomas:99:



The disciples said to Him, "Your brothers and Your mother are standing outside." He said to them, "Those here who do the will of My Father are My brothers and My mother. It is they who will enter the Kingdom of My Father."



To me, this is pretty much of a piece with Luke:22:28-30. Again, a personal inheritance is strongly implied. Thoughts?

So I'd be curious if others here also find Luke:22:28-30; Mark:14:61-62; and Thomas:99 pretty overt as a group, while the remaining two do in fact seem the more ambiguous -- please? Or am I overstating things either in one direction or the other?

Thanks,

Operacast

[cyberpi]

Blazn, so which is it, do you have the authority to forgive sins, or not? Do you have the power to forgive sins, or not? Do you forgive sins, or not?

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

jesus sends the spirit and wishes for everyone to be filled with it and not reject it--he has the authority to do that, and no one else.

It is the 'no one else' claim that I find peculiar.

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

yes, only jesus can forgive sins that one would be judged in heaven for doing that could lead to everlasting damnation.

So if the judgment that could lead to everlasting judgment awaits in heaven, then what awaits in hell?

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

but it is not man's authority, it is god's authority which is also christ. and if you forgive a man for a sin, it is right to do so, because god will not forgive your sin, if you do not forgive also. as we forgive, it is taking a step in the direction that pleases god.

Do you ask Jesus first before forgiving a sin, or do you just do it without authority? Do those who don't know Jesus just do it without the authority? Do you have the authority to forgive or not?

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

however, only god knows a man's heart and if he is truly sorry. if you forgive someone of their trespass, they still need to reconcile with god, which is christ.

You think the criteria for being forgiven, is whether or not you are truly sorry???

[Quahom1]

The ability to forgive others of sins, is not for them Cy. The authority is given to the forgiver, for the fogiver's sake. As a side note, the forgiven "might" be grateful, but then again not. So the purpose of forgiveness is to releive the harborer of wrong, of the stress of being wronged.

But then, you knew that already...

v/r

Q

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Blazn, so which is it, do you have the authority to forgive sins, or not? Do you have the power to forgive sins, or not? Do you forgive sins, or not?

It is the 'no one else' claim that I find peculiar.

So if the judgment that could lead to everlasting judgment awaits in heaven, then what awaits in hell?

Do you ask Jesus first before forgiving a sin, or do you just do it without authority? Do those who don't know Jesus just do it without the authority? Do you have the authority to forgive or not?

You think the criteria for being forgiven, is whether or not you are truly sorry???

we can forgive others for sins against our person, but the one that sinned still needs to reconcile with god for sinning against him. there can be forgiveness among sinners, that doesn't mean they are living right with god. and as far as the spirit, it does not proceed from man, it proceeds from god. we can be filled with it, but we can not send it, nor do we know where it goes, only god does.

[Ahanu]

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."



Does this simply mean that the Son is indeed Jesus, and that only the Son Jesus, being the Son, can really hope to reveal the identity of his Father (i.e., God) to others? Or is something broader meant?

Hey, these questions sort of hint at what I was discussing with a friend yesterday because I wanted to have more answers for the thread. We were talking about the status of a Messenger. Let us look at the definition. A Messenger is one who carries a message from one person to another. So God is the one sending the message, and then Manifestation delivers it to mankind.

Jesus said:

14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(King James Bible, John)

When we obey Jesus' commands, we also are obeying God. When we turn away from Jesus, we also turn away from the face of God. Therefore, He reveals the identity of the Father to others that are willing to accept the Messenger that brings the teachings, word, and laws from God. So, as Salty would say, In that sense, Jesus "is" God because the meaning of God is being conveyed by him to those around him.

Again, just another thought.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

we can forgive others for sins against our person, but the one that sinned still needs to reconcile with god for sinning against him. there can be forgiveness among sinners, that doesn't mean they are living right with god. and as far as the spirit, it does not proceed from man, it proceeds from god. we can be filled with it, but we can not send it, nor do we know where it goes, only god does.

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, ALL manner of SIN and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall NOT be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:28-29 Verily I say unto you, ALL SINS shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blashpheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment.

So then, reconciliation with the Father is not what you claim. All is forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is never forgiven. It is already laid out. Is there criteria for the Father's forgiveness?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

How do you read those last two verses? Is my Father your Father? Is my Father not Jesus' Father?

Matthew 10:20 For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Now, if Jesus the Son, who the Father was IN, and he IN the Father, if Jesus says that the Spirit of your Father speaketh IN you...

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Operacast

Again, a personal inheritance is strongly implied. Thoughts?

Depends on the definition of inheritance. I witness that a person who does the will of another does always inherit something. Matthew 25:34-36 looks important.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, ALL manner of SIN and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall NOT be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:28-29 Verily I say unto you, ALL SINS shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blashpheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment.

So then, reconciliation with the Father is not what you claim. All is forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is never forgiven. It is already laid out. Is there criteria for the Father's forgiveness?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

How do you read those last two verses? Is my Father your Father? Is my Father not Jesus' Father?

Matthew 10:20 For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Now, if Jesus the Son, who the Father was IN, and he IN the Father, if Jesus says that the Spirit of your Father speaketh IN you...

the difference with your first question is a matter of knowledge. with jesus, many sin against him or blaspheme against him or are not ready yet. jesus will stand at the door and knock, so someone might come to you and say jesus loves you, or someone might invite you to a christian church, or you hear about how jesus is the son of god. so even though he knocks one might not answer right away. it is because they do not know who he is, are scared, do not truly trust in god yet or do not want to change their life at the moment, have too much invested in their religion/culture, or want to please men. if they did know him, they would not do such things but rather they would honor, worship, and please him instead. but god is patient and waits for you to call out to him, for he wishes all to come to repentance and that none should perish but believe in his son and find life. however with the spirit, his main purpose is to give wisdom and knowledge and reveal that jesus christ is god. so with the spirit, once it has come to you, it will reveal all that christ is, and one would know that jesus is the lord god. then rejecting what the spirit has revealed as truth and knowing that it is truth, especially upon losing ones life with this rejection in the heart, it is the sin that cannot be forgiven.

criteria for fathers forgiveness: ask god for forgiveness in jesus' name whom the father has put over all things, who has died for all of our sins and who is the saviour of the world and makes us new and gives us eternal life. all of which is not laid out until one chooses it. a prerequisite, if you will, to be being forgiven by god is to come to him with a humble heart that is in the right place. if you hate people, are unforgiving, have no compassion,think god owes you, or even deny god, then it is better to fix these things with gods help, then ask god for forgiveness.

im not exactly sure what you meant by the last two verses.. but the spirit of the father is the same as the spirit of christ, which is the holy spirit of god. this was given to the disciples of christ to start the church and so that people knew there were of god they were specifically given power for a specific time. being filled with the spirit will always point to jesus christ being god.

[Sean H.]

Just to add some more stuff to the discussion ()

There are only a few passages to look at in which one could try to say that Jesus is God.

10:30 I and my Father are one.
(King James Bible, John)

Of course, the context of this passage is never posted.

10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
(King James Bible, John)

Jesus is talking about the deeds that he does and that he does them in God's name. In fact he is saying that the Father is greater than all, and in another passage Jesus specifically says that the Father is greater than him.

4:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(King James Bible, John)

Then there's the beginning of John

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[...]

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So, it's possible that one could think Jesus was God based on these two passages unless of course you read just a few more lines.

1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(King James Bible, John)

This one line should be the tell-all here that the John 1:1 and 1:14 need to be interpreted spiritually rather than literally. Nay, this line should be the tell-all for the entire idea that Jesus is God!

You'll notice that most of the quotes used to try to say that there is a trinity use John, and the possible interpretations in which one could possibly think that Jesus is God are later refuted in the text, and in the first chapter, no doubt.

The only leftover quotes are a few that come from Colossians, Timothy, Hebrews, and a couple of others. These aren't Jesus's words. They're words from recollections of people that were later written down. Secondly, they don't contradict the belief that Jesus is not God at all. Jesus simply manifests the qualities and virtues of God. It doesn't make Jesus God.

As Ahanu already posted

14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(King James Bible, John)

What's interesting too is the belief that God is one is in full harmony with other religions. In Judaism...

6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one
(King James Bible, Deuteronomy)

In Islam

4:171. O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to Him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
(Qur'an, Yusuf Ali tr.)


(Just for clarity, the passage is saying that God is exalted above having a literal son...but that's another topic). Here's a little more

6:162. Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds:

6:163. No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His Will.
(Qur'an, Yusuf Ali tr.)

And, in the Bahai Faith

O God, my God! I bear witness to Thy unity and Thy oneness, and that Thou art God, and that there is none other God but Thee.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 43)

Zoroastrianism proclaims the oneness of God too, but I'm having trouble finding the appropriate quotes.

[Ahanu]

This could mean something broader.

1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(King James Bible, John)

1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
(NIV, John)

Here, peep this quote on self-knowledge. Like the Sun and the mirror, it is another good analogy.

Kahlil Gibran said:

Your hearts know in silence the secrets
of the days and the nights.

But your ears thirst for the sound of
your heart's knowledge.

You would know in words that which
you have always known in thought.

Maybe I am just putting quotes together, but they seem to fit nicely to give a clearer meaning. To me, he is saying we are in the heart of God, but we need to awaken to the knowledge of God. Like a boundless ocean, He is measureless and contains infinite wisdom. While keeping this in mind, the Messenger reveals what we remain sleeping on. They bring a message from what our "hearts know in silence," and reveal the "sound" and "words" of what God is saying. Thus "He is the image of the invisible God" made visible.

4:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(King James Bible, John)

Sean, I also think this expresses the fact that Jesus was never to proud to call Himself a servant of God or a Messenger of God. So, while Jesus was on earth, He revealed the knowledge of what remained hidden, and told people to worship God, not His cage or human form. For God is one.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Sean H.

There are only a few passages to look at in which one could try to say that Jesus is God.

that is incorrect in that there are only a few passages, in fact there are many passages that speak about the attributes of the son of god and the attributes of god the father and how the are one in the same. and there are passages that show christ is prayed to, worshiped, and is called Lord God and Saviour. and there are passages that show that when christ was calling himself the son of god to those that were intimate with his preaching and what he was claiming understood it to be that he was calling himself god. and there are passages that show how god declares his son and calls him god, even with his glory.