Jesus died: we're all saved?

[Sacredstar]

Also let is not confuse Jesus the man with Christ who is GOD.

Although GOD doesn't care what you call him/her.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[lunamoth]

Dear Sacredstar, in all gentleness, could you please give the sources for your quotes?

(edit: somehow post I replied to the wrong post by SS; this refers to the reference to the Pope's statements.)

[Drachen]

Wow, really interesting link. Good points, a few viewpoints I hadnt considered.
Thanks!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

"The popular Catholic Pope John Paul II blatantly contradicted the Bible on December 7, 2000 when he proclaimed "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good," even for "those who ignore Christ and his Church." The Bible clearly teaches only those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will go to heaven and the Father. The December 8, Electronic Telegraph reported the Pope as saying that "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good." The Pope was also quoted as telling an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build the kingdom of God."

Another point

Scientific evidence is affected by conscious intent see papers by Professor William Tiller www.tillerfoundation.com

Hello Sacred,

First :

Sometimes we hate having our eyes opened (like a newborn to the sun's light), none the less we eventually must open them.

I've come to realize that the Bible was never written by anyone. 51 to 62 "books" are included in today's Bible, however 11 to 27 books were rejected, a little while after Pope Constatine. So some brilliant minded group of politically/religiously motivated power brokers, decided without the concensus of the multitude (because they were the ignorant sheep), what would be taught and what would not. Of course, adding the little blurb at the end of John's Revelations about adding to or taking from this "holy writ" would cause serious consequenses (perhaps to keep the superstitious, superstitious).

Now I do believe that the individual scriptures were inspired by the Spirit of God, but how they were pieced together, was strictly a human construct.

Perhaps the Pope was letting those with an open mind "hear" the truth. After all...there are still places on Earth that have never "heard" of Jesus, or Budah, or Mohhamad, or anyone but their own idea of God. Many of them it has been discovered, live peaceful and benevolent lives...until modern man intrudes on their pristine place. Is that ignorance is bliss? Or is that innocence lost to corruption?

Second:

Scientific evidence is in fact affected by conscious intent. One very small case in point is the research on stem cells...not one shred of evidence leads to the healing properties of using 'embryonic' stem cells, HOWEVER, overwhelming evidence shows not only promise, but actualization in the healing properties of "ADULT STEM CELL RESEARCH" results. Do we hear that good news in the the media, or by those funding the scientists in their research (aside from the US Government, which the media chooses to ignore, adnauseam)? Nope.

That is just one tiny little piece of disinformation, and disruption of scientific fact, in a long long list.

At the risk of being archaic, the Old Testament warned us at the confounding of the people of Babylon, that there is nothing man can not achieve, that he puts his mind to... "God" I think He meant good or bad...but mostly bad.

Maybe He was right. I mean, we can't even keep the "Good News" of Christ, good, without getting someone killed.

Food for thought.

v/r

Q

[Sacredstar]

Dear Qauhom1

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That there is nothing man can not achieve, that he puts his mind to... "God" I think He meant good or bad...but mostly bad. Maybe He was right.

Q

Well he certainly was right and there is now celluar biology evidence to back it up. www.brucelipton.com The Biology of Belief what we think, perceive and believe affects our cells and the action they take.

Onwards and upwards.....

But as the scholars are now saying that Jesus never lived and they are making a film about the evidence surely, it makes this thread title a little historical. So how do other Christians feel about this news?

Brian the Christianity forum could turn into a history forum before we reach 2012!

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

But as the scholars are now saying that Jesus never lived and they are making a film about the evidence surely, it makes this thread title a little historical. So how do other Christians feel about this news?

I feel that my faith can stand up to just about any argument. Let them make a movie, true faith can't be disporven. I like to hear opposing views, it usually strengthens my resolve in the end.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Drachen

I feel that my faith can stand up to just about any argument. Let them make a movie, true faith can't be disporven. I like to hear opposing views, it usually strengthens my resolve in the end.

I agree 100% I challenge people to challenge my faith...Its a rock that cant be moved.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Qauhom1



Well he certainly was right and there is now celluar biology evidence to back it up. www.brucelipton.com The Biology of Belief what we think, perceive and believe affects our cells and the action they take.

Onwards and upwards.....

But as the scholars are now saying that Jesus never lived and they are making a film about the evidence surely, it makes this thread title a little historical. So how do other Christians feel about this news?

Brian the Christianity forum could turn into a history forum before we reach 2012!

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

The best stunt that Satan has pulled off, is to make people think he doesn't exist. Now, if the scholars can pull off the stunt of making people think Jesus doesn't exist, then what do we have left? Nothing but today, and no reason to live well, do right, think of others first. We have the beginnings of anarchy. Not very smart of the scholars to attempt to set such a movement rolling...wouldn't you think? Society in absolute chaos, unless and/or until the power mongers declare that they are God, and man should obey them...then maybe it is rather clever of the scholars, after all.

However, I find it very difficult for the scholars to prove anything as noted above, without presenting concrete proof that there is no such thing as love.

Dr. Lipton is printing now, what my mother told me 35 years ago. Like the US Federal government being made up of three parts, and the Christian Trinity being made of three parts, Man is comprised of three parts - body - mind - spirit.

And when any one of the three fall ill, the tendency is for the other two parts to suffer as well. Likewise if one of Man's parts is "super charged" with profuse energy, it tends to lift the other two parts back into a better equalibrium.

This all may be repackaged in some neat new boxes and bows, but it is the same old song and dance that has been going on for centuries.

Nothing new under the sun

v/r

Q

p.s. Dear Sacred...when did you and I become "senior members" ?

[Blue]

With due respect, Quahom,
I do not understand this statement:

"if the scholars can pull off the stunt of making people think Jesus doesn't exist, then what do we have left? Nothing but today, and no reason to live well, "

You seem to be saying no one can be altruistic, or kind, or have empathy and value honesty, without believing Jesus existed.

Surely,even a cursory view of world history shows this to be wrong.
Human beings before Jesus could behave perfectly well, with genuine humanity and understanding withouit ever having knowledge of him.

Today, much of the world would not describe itself as 'Christian' and what you have said seems to suggest that all those millions are not capable of humanity, love, kindness and atruistic empathy with others.

What you say also seems to condemn atheists. Why should an humanitarian atheist not also be thoroughly rational and humane, and altruistic in their beliefs and motivations, while actually denying Jesus?

Surely - in reason and rationality - you have every reason to "live well" as you put it, just as well as a Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Pagan, Sikh, follower of Islam,or any other religion or 'no religion'?

What you always have left is your heart, your affective nature and nurture, Quahom... and that is not dependent in some way on the God you may worship. The latter only arises from your basic affective nature and nurture. Is that not the case?

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Blue

What I do feel is wrong, with no deference to political correctness, only rationality, you again condemn - directly - all those with Islamic faith, or any other...

I have not condemned anyone; who am I to condemn, when I am not the one judging? Just because you stand in judgment doesn't mean you are condemned. Does every person who goes to trial get convicted? You have misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Blue

Belief that a monotheistic God speaks to you personally or through ancient texts, or whatever, is ONLY a personally validated belief of yourself. There is no evidence, and I quite openly reject such a patently domineering and proselytising view projected upon others...

No. My belief is validated by God. That is the whole point of believing. In the same way that you say I have no evidence to back up what I am saying, the Pharisees told Jesus that he had no evidence. But wisdom will be proven right by her actions.

And incidentally, when did I ever tell you to repent and be baptized, Blue? What makes you think that I care whether or not you come to call Jesus your Saviour? Isn't it you who are assuming this? You have misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Blue

I find it very hard to accept in reason that you have a 'truth' that is universally applicable... especially in view of the sincerely held faiths by millions of other people across the world...

There are many different versions of the truth, but in the end there is only one truth. For many years Europeans sincerely believed that the world was flat. This didn't make the world flat, though.

Originally Posted by Blue

You argue too as if a Thread called 'Christianity' is solely there/here for you to declare that this.. your personal faith ... is the only 'true' faith for all.

If I wanted to question whether or not Jesus is the Christ, I would hang out in the Monotheism section. That's what it's for. In here, I assume the fact that Jesus is the Christ, so that I can discuss issues with other Christians without being blind-sided by people who don't believe in him.

Originally Posted by Blue

Nothing makes personal declarations 'true' just because they are declared, and it is obvious that these views of yours denigrate, to a lesser and subordinate level, all other sincerely held faiths apparent in the world, because it is perfectly clear that you do.

It is not what I have declared; it is what God has declared. But in the same way, are you not simply declaring that I am wrong in my assertions, and by this are you not convicted as false by your own logic?

Originally Posted by Blue

I don't recall in the actual purported words of Jesus of Nazareth anything about people being anything but equal before their God...

And I don't recall saying anything of the kind either. Did I not say that none of us are special, and that we will all stand before God? And does God not say that we will all be judged according to our actions? And if this is the case, and if Jesus is the Christ, will God not reward those who held their faith as truth, even amid persecution?

Originally Posted by Blue

I am sorry if I may sound harsh, but hopefully it is in the cause of reason and rationality, and not irrationality. Your affective views as posted do appear to be intolerant. I would suggest mine at least border on being tolerant of other peoples and faiths.

Who's proud now?

[Faithfulservant]

Blue

You said:

I am sorry if I may sound harsh, but hopefully it is in the cause of reason and rationality, and not irrationality. Your affective views as posted do appear to be intolerant. I would suggest mine at least border on being tolerant of other peoples and faiths.
Im sorry but I have seen nothing from you showing tolerance for people believing in their respective faiths. Namely Christianity. You have not seen the Christians on this forum Telling people to repent because they will be doomed.. All we do here is to discuss our beliefs with other people and discuss their beliefs and their faiths. We are not here to cast stones. We are not here to discuss the sliver in your eye. All we want to do is have intelligent conversation with other people. With all due respect, you are the one that so adamantly opposes the fact that we are convicted that our faith is the one true faith. We dont come on here claiming to everyone that they are wrong for believing what they do. You have taken every opportunity to attack Christians with our conviction. We have never told you that you are wrong to not share our beliefs. We have never told anyone that they are wrong for believing what they do.. We would just like the opportunity to be respected As intelligent human beings with something to add to this world we call Comparative Religion!!

I find your narrow minded attitude towards Christians as a thing to be sad about. You try to come across open minded.. you claim WE are narrow minded but we arent attacking you at every turn because we know theres no point in it. You are not open to discussion with us in any sort of friendly manner. Its always in the mode of attack.

You should go back and read your posts. Theres a chance you might find some enlightenment.

Faithful Servant

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Blue

With due respect, Quahom,
I do not understand this statement:

"if the scholars can pull off the stunt of making people think Jesus doesn't exist, then what do we have left? Nothing but today, and no reason to live well, "

My comment was not meant for all faiths, or atheists, etc. I should have been more concise...I will do so here. If Jesus is taken away from the "Christian", Blue, we would have nothing left. There is no Christianity without Christ. More than a faith, it is a way of life. It gives a great many Christians purpose. If there is nothing more to look forward to after death than, a grave, what good is living for?

Not everyone feels this way of course, however, the Christian faith has molded many of us to this expectation, and hope. So we try to do what is good and right, because our faith compells us to try to "please" our God, and find pleasure in our selves when we believe we have pleased God. Christianity also gives many of us a sense of comfort in the belief that we are going to live forever (or exist as a viable entity). Finally, I look forward to one day, touching the face of God. From one carpenter to another, we can have conversations on wood butchering and cabinet making, while He gives me a tour of His creation (the universe).

I for one do not want to place my faith in anything but Jesus. Certainly not in man. To do so is an automatic set up for failure (in my opinion).

These "scholars" are attempting to ruin Christianity, not seek the truth for truth's sake. It is simply another attempt to attack Christianity, and I find that very interesting, and sad.

Also, roughly 1/3 rd of the population of earth professes to be of the Christian persuasion (of one type or another) 2,000,000,000 people is no small chunk of change.

I respect other peoples' rights to choose for themselves what they believe is best. I expect the same courtesy. Alas, some people do not concur and seem to take delight in attempting to debunk what I and many others hold dear.

That is truly a shame.

v/r

Q

[Kaspar]

I'd just like to ask a quick question that has little to do with this thread.

Some Christians believe that you will only go to Heaven if you accept Jesus as the son of GOD. What happened to people when they died before Jesus was born? Did they go to hell because they didn't accept jesus as their GOD?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Kaspar

I'd just like to ask a quick question that has little to do with this thread.

Some Christians believe that you will only go to Heaven if you accept Jesus as the son of GOD. What happened to people when they died before Jesus was born? Did they go to hell because they didn't accept jesus as their GOD?

Grace is a wonderful thing. It allows God to invoke the "grandfather clause". Many did not meet Jesus, but believed in a Christ to come, and lived in accordance with that belief.

We don't have to be "Christians" to go to heaven. We have to have a Christlike faith within our hearts, whether we know the name of Jesus or not, we know He is there. Hard to explain, but easy to understand. The laws of life and death are imprinted in every man's essence. We know better, and we know what is wrong, and what is right. We know God would never abandon us, but we attempted to abandon Him (still are to this day).

Christianity is not a name, or a religion, it is a way of living.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Kaspar

I'd just like to ask a quick question that has little to do with this thread.

Some Christians believe that you will only go to Heaven if you accept Jesus as the son of GOD. What happened to people when they died before Jesus was born? Did they go to hell because they didn't accept jesus as their GOD?

I am a rare case of Christian so I can only speak for myself. I have never believed Jesus is God, but rather the Son of God and the first begotten of the father spiritually. I see God the same way the Jews see Him.
I see Jesus as an intercessor and a mediator between God and man.

I believe he was a man (son of man) with the spirit of a mortal man who was the first to be given the indwelling of the spirit of God making him (Son of God). In other words BEGOTTEN of the father, because God begets the spirit of men. (like a spirit of adoption)
He begets us all, the same way, only Jesus was the first.
Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead, in that God raised Jesus up from mortality to immortality.

I do believe he is the Messiah and Savior and that he was here to manifest the invisible God in his life and to show us there is a God, so that we can SEE God through and in him. I see Jesus as more than just a prophet.

I see the blood of Jesus reaches all of the righteous in the O.T., and in the N.T. clear up to today.

Here is one thing Jesus said about what you are asking. I hope this helps a little.

Luke12:8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:12:9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.