Jesus died: we're all saved? - Page 5

Faithfulservant · 12-28-2004, 02:08 AM

Greetings to you all

Reading this long thread there are many posts I would like to address but it would be too confusing at this point so Im going to post an addition to Bens post on bible prophecy.. Probably the most important prophecies were in regards to Jesus Christ

Psalm 22: 1-31

1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? 2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them. 5 They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people. 7 All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 "He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!" 9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God.

11 Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. 13 They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. 19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me! 20 Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. 21 Save Me from the lion's mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me. 22 I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. 25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. 26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord. Let your heart live forever! 27 All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. 28 For the kingdom is the Lord's, And He rules over the nations. 29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. 30 A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, 31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this.

And
Isaiah 53:1-12

1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked-- But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

There are of course many more but those ones can be shown fullfilled in the gospels easily.
I would also like to comment on one thing that was posted by Marsh earlier in the thread that I think needs to be further explained since a couple people didnt understand. When he said that you wouldnt understand it unless you were a Christian. Hes right. The bible was written by God through man. It would sound crazy to someone that did not know how integral the Holy Spirit is in Christianity. When you are born again you are baptized in the Holy Spirit he is our comminication between us and God who cannot be here to speak to us. When I read the bible I pray that the Spirit give me wisdom and understanding so that I may know what God wishes me to know. He then teaches me. You cannot possibly understand the truth without the Holy Spirit. I am in no way saying anyone is stupid or illiterate or unable to comprehend the written word. Im saying that Satan himself could not read that bible, which im sure he knows backwards and forwards, and understand the truth of the word.
Jesus taught in parables for a reason. One man can read one and totally get it another man will read it and wonder what drug he was on. The difference between the two men is the Holy Spirits interpretation. I can read one thing one day and see the words and the next day read the same thing and read the truth behind the words and think "aaaah thats what that means" and be overwhelmed with joy at such a gift that was revealed to me.
When a non-believer reads the bible it probably looks a lot like Shakespeare or something along those lines and its read like a novel or a poem. What that person is not seeing is the profound meaning by those words They will not see the heart of it.. they cant unless the Holy Spirit allows them to.
It goes the same way with being saved. We Christians could witness or share the gospel with everyone we came across but the Holy Spirit is who convicts those who are saved. We can sow the seeds but God reaps the harvest and he will do it in his time not ours.
I was very hesitant on posting on this forum because I wasnt sure that it would bear fruit but I see my two brothers in Christ trying to explain something profoundly confusing and I felt compelled to help them. I would say that the Holy Spirit compelled me to post
I wish on all of you the fruits of the Spirit
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Ben57 · 01-01-2005, 06:16 AM

Hi Sacredstar

Quote:

Do you feel this will include Christian Fundamentalists?

Please share your medical references it would be interesting to see if they corresspond with my own.

Personally I would not like to judge what God might think of other people. I do have personal thoughts but I feel that to name what person or group of people that might include makes me a judge and that is one responsability I do not want.

I have not had time to reaserch the medical aspecs of the Bible but some of the things that are unique to the Bible as an ancient book that has to do with medical science is the health and hygine laws that stopped the spread of desease among the Jews. Medical science has only realised the benefit of those laws in the last 100 yeasr or so. It truely is a book way before its time.

Ben

Quahom1 · 01-01-2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben57

Hi Sacredstar
Personally I would not like to judge what God might think of other people. I do have personal thoughts but I feel that to name what person or group of people that might include makes me a judge and that is one responsability I do not want.

I have not had time to reaserch the medical aspecs of the Bible but some of the things that are unique to the Bible as an ancient book that has to do with medical science is the health and hygine laws that stopped the spread of desease among the Jews. Medical science has only realised the benefit of those laws in the last 100 yeasr or so. It truely is a book way before its time.

Ben

"And man shall sit in judgement..."

Look it up. It is in the Bible. It isn't God that judges Man, it is Man that judges man. Oh, God stands in judgement, but we are our own worst enemy.

Would I want man to act as my defense before a court of God? Forget it.

God offered a plea bargain for man...and we would be stupid not to take it.

That is unless you think you are innocent... (Christian thinking here, so chill. Like the advertisement, somethings are not for everyone).

v/r

Q

Blue · 01-01-2005, 07:52 PM

With due respect, Quahom1, when you say:

"Would I want man to act as my defense before a court of God? Forget it."

you are only making a personal and affective self-validation. The reality, so far as anyone knows, is that we have no choice... it is a 'man' or 'woman' or no-thing with existence beyond yourself validation.
There is certainly no external (beyond yourself) validation for such a question.

How do you KNOW there is a 'court of God'? You only affirm it. There is no evidence, even if you were to quote the Bible or any other religious text, which themselves were written by human beings.

It doesn't have to have existence beyond yourself, just because you say it does - to yourself! That is the nature of FAITH.

It is just a part of your honest and sincere Faith... which is why it has no evidence beyond yourself.

What I suggest is that no one can legitimately generalise such statements as if they have any truth beyond personal affirmation.
-----------
New Year greetings.

Faithfulservant · 01-02-2005, 12:33 PM

Hello Blue

How do you KNOW there is a 'court of God'? You only affirm it. There is no evidence, even if you were to quote the Bible or any other religious text, which themselves were written by human beings.

-Not everyone believes it was written by mere human beings. If you would like I could list verses where the bible states that the Holy Spirit is responsible for the words. Who Am I to call God a liar. You want proof thats its anything other than man that is responsible. Ask God yourself. Maybe he will let you test him. There doesnt have to be a rational explanation for everything in this life.

It doesn't have to have existence beyond yourself, just because you say it does - to yourself! That is the nature of FAITH.

-I couldnt imagine living this life without faith. It would be so hard. Is Faith so bad?

When my dad died I had faith I would see him again some day.. what a comfort that was.
When I am sad or depressed I have faith that my Lord hears my prayers.
When I dont know where the next rent checks coming from I have faith that God will provide.
When Im in need of guidance I have faith that the Lord will show me the way.
When I sin and I know its a sin because I feel guilt I have faith that im forgiven so I can forgive myself.
When I disobey God I have faith that hes going to spank me for it and boy does he.
Faith is a beautiful thing. And God has NEVER let me down.

It is just a part of your honest and sincere Faith... which is why it has no evidence beyond yourself.

-I have personally witnessed miracles that deny any rational explanation. I have personally experienced miracles that deny any rational explanation.

What I suggest is that no one can legitimately generalise such statements as if they have any truth beyond personal affirmation.

May I remind you that you are posting on a christianity thread. If you want rationality you're probably not going to get it if someones speaking on faith. I think your job here might be to prove that its just personal affirmation. I would be interested to see that.

Thanks

Faithful Servant

Quahom1 · 01-02-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

With due respect, Quahom1, when you say:

"Would I want man to act as my defense before a court of God? Forget it."

you are only making a personal and affective self-validation. The reality, so far as anyone knows, is that we have no choice... it is a 'man' or 'woman' or no-thing with existence beyond yourself validation.
There is certainly no external (beyond yourself) validation for such a question.

How do you KNOW there is a 'court of God'? You only affirm it. There is no evidence, even if you were to quote the Bible or any other religious text, which themselves were written by human beings.

It doesn't have to have existence beyond yourself, just because you say it does - to yourself! That is the nature of FAITH.

It is just a part of your honest and sincere Faith... which is why it has no evidence beyond yourself.

What I suggest is that no one can legitimately generalise such statements as if they have any truth beyond personal affirmation.
-----------
New Year greetings.

Oustanding point argued! In fact scripture backs your point up strongly. In both the old and new testaments, God decrees that He is a personal God. "Personal" implies by its very nature, subjectivity.

External reality (the physical world around us), may be grounded in the laws of science and nature, and therefore pondered objectively, but even that is questionable (we've already proven that time, gravity and space are relative, not fixed). Internal reality is truely as subjective as the individual living it. That does not make it any less real, or true, just very personal, and unique.

v/r

Q

StrandgecK · 01-02-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross_+_Flame

From a traditional Christian viewpoint (not my own, but seeing it from their perspective), consider an example posed by one of my own.

Let's say you are poor and in debt beyond what you have any capability of paying. I have enough money to pay all of your debts and completely eliminate them and I am completely willing to do so for you. In fact I have written you a check to cover every single one of them. Until you accept the gift (cash the check) I am offering, you are still just as poor and in debt. The means for eliminating the debt is there but you are refusing to accept it so you are still in debt.

Therefore, in this understanding, Jesus died to pay for all the sins of all mankind BUT we have to individually accept what he did for us in order for our sins to be forgiven. If we refuse to accept his gift we are still in debt for the sins we commit. And to accept the gift requires an assent that what you are doing is real.

Wouldnt this analogy only work if it was gods' fault that we where in debt? He owns every company we are in debt too, takes all of our things and throws us out on the streets then his son comes and for decides to give us back everything but only if we give total blind devotion to him and his father can we one day have our stuff back, but untill then we have to live out in the cold.

Drachen · 01-02-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrandgecK

Wouldnt this analogy only work if it was gods' fault that we where in debt? He owns every company we are in debt too, takes all of our things and throws us out on the streets then his son comes and for decides to give us back everything but only if we give total blind devotion to him and his father can we one day have our stuff back, but untill then we have to live out in the cold.

It isn't ours to begin with, how can god take away somthing that isn't ours?

What is meant by the analogy you quoted is, that yes god owns everything, and through his son, Jesus Christ, we are able to whipe all our debts (sin) clear. We still had the debt, but it has been paid for. If we do the same thing again we will be right back in the same debt as before. We have to accept the payment, or it dosent apply to us. If we understand that Christ died to atone for our sins, but we refuse to accept Christ as the way to god then our sins will still ravage us. In essence, god wants to pay for our spiritual debt, but we have to let it happen.

StrandgecK · 01-03-2005, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drachen

It isn't ours to begin with, how can god take away somthing that isn't ours?

What is meant by the analogy you quoted is, that yes god owns everything, and through his son, Jesus Christ, we are able to whipe all our debts (sin) clear. We still had the debt, but it has been paid for. If we do the same thing again we will be right back in the same debt as before. We have to accept the payment, or it dosent apply to us. If we understand that Christ died to atone for our sins, but we refuse to accept Christ as the way to god then our sins will still ravage us. In essence, god wants to pay for our spiritual debt, but we have to let it happen.

I'm not sure I understand how Christ is the way to God (and the only way apparently)? Why even if I live a life as any follower of christ would, sans the belief that Christ died for me or that god exists, would I still not be worthy of heaven in gods eyes?

Faithfulservant · 01-03-2005, 06:43 AM

Hello Strangedeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrandgecK

I'm not sure I understand how Christ is the way to God (and the only way apparently)? Why even if I live a life as any follower of christ would, sans the belief that Christ died for me or that god exists, would I still not be worthy of heaven in gods eyes?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Without Jesus noone could ever be "good enough" When we ask him for forgiveness he wipes off the slate any trace of the sin which we repent for. Its like being able to start over.. again and again and again. There is no forgiveness without Jesus. Its very simple.

Faithful Servant

Drachen · 01-03-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrandgecK

I'm not sure I understand how Christ is the way to God (and the only way apparently)? Why even if I live a life as any follower of christ would, sans the belief that Christ died for me or that god exists, would I still not be worthy of heaven in gods eyes?

Well, In my opinion, and the majority of christianity, none of us are "worthy" of heaven. We are gifted with the ability to know God through the love of the son, Jesus Christ. Many people wrestle with Christ being the only way to the father (myself included, for a very long time), but biblically speaking he is the only way. Accepting Christ is integral to forming a personal realationship with God. I personally think that heaven is knowing God, i.e. being saved and being apart from god is hell. The only way to truly know god is through acceptance/love of the son and then we are shown ( the Holy Spirit ) how to truly love God and be the way we are made to be.

As blue is great at pointing out, this is all just personal perspective and validation of feelings, but really, what in our existence can't be narrowed down to personal perspective. The real message that Christ brought is love. And real love, god driven love, is something that is the same for us all. But again, thats a personal belief. *shrug*

/rant off

Blue · 01-04-2005, 01:03 AM

Quahom, POST 66.

I agree absolutely, and so glad you confirm it.

I think others should hopefully learn from your wise commentary, re: the personal nature of Faith.
========
FaithfulServant,

I fully understand the reliance you put in the Bible to support your personal faith, but you see - just stating that it is the 'will of God' or 'the word of God' does not prove anything beyond your personal and sincere faith. It isn't true beyond your personal faith. It has no reality beyond yourself, in fact; but we do, in fact, know that the texts were written by human beings, whether they were inspired or not.

Incidentally, do you personally put the Bible before other spiritual writings? OR to put it another way, do you think the Bible is somehow superior to the Koran, or any other ancient texts, be they Jewish, Jain, or Pagan?

Blue · 01-04-2005, 01:13 AM

Thankyou fror your comment, Drachen:

"As Blue is great at pointing out, this is all just personal perspective and validation of feelings, but really, what in our existence can't be narrowed down to personal perspective."

I would like to try and answer the last part of that though.

Is it not true, Drachen, that there is so very much that be appreciated, analysed, understood beyond your personal perspective?

Do I need a personal perspective to understand the solar system or some of the workings of DNA? The perspective is in the objectivity of the subject. I don't depend upon my personal perspective.. I refer to the empirical results of objective experimentation and testing for my validations.
If I am a research scientist, I make my hypothesis.
I devise means to empirically test it and ensure that any results are repeatable. I then submit my findings to other scientists for their independent testing re: repeatability. If they find errors, the whole process may go right back to the beginning again, with refined research techniques.
Personal perspectives do not exist in scientific methodology... if they do,the research is recognised pretty quickly as flawed.

Drachen · 01-04-2005, 01:48 PM

Good ideas, I really like to hear thoughts that are contrary to my own.

I do however have to disagree, everything in this existence is your personal perspective.

Quote:

Is it not true, Drachen, that there is so very much that be appreciated, analysed, understood beyond your personal perspective?

How? Explain to me how i can analyse something as someone else and truly believe it? If i did, then i would have a new line of thinking, and a new personal perspective, it is impossible to not think as yourself. I can, as myself, appreciate a concept, but that only means that concept exists only as an idea in my reality, not necessarily a standard. If we percieve anything, then that is our personal perspective, by definition.

Quote:

Do I need a personal perspective to understand the solar system or some of the workings of DNA?

Technically speaking, no. But you still have personal perspective, and it changes how you understand somthing, thereby altering reality for you. It is really imposible to prove anything, much less that there are any other perspectives than your own. You can choose to believe that there are, but that is just your validation that you are not the only consciousness in existence.

Quote:

Personal perspectives do not exist in scientific methodology... if they do,the research is recognised pretty quickly as flawed.

Personal perspectives change the hypothesis. If personal perspective truly wasnt a factor at all in the scientific process then we would only test the same things over and over, never testing anything new. We would have no need becuase we would all percieve the world the same way. I think personal perspective is the very soul of science, it makes us see our world in a different way that will make us question existing ideas, and put them to the test.

Sacredstar · 01-04-2005, 08:56 PM

"The popular Catholic Pope John Paul II blatantly contradicted the Bible on December 7, 2000 when he proclaimed "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good," even for "those who ignore Christ and his Church." The Bible clearly teaches only those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will go to heaven and the Father. The December 8, Electronic Telegraph reported the Pope as saying that "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good." The Pope was also quoted as telling an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build the kingdom of God."

Another point

Scientific evidence is affected by conscious intent see papers by Professor William Tiller www.tillerfoundation.com