Jesus Died A Natural Death.

[Bandit]

thanks Luna. i appreciate that, bringing the two ways of seeing it together that way. especially since you have been on both sides of the fence.
i personally dont have an interest in discussing the different trinity doctrines, but maybe someday in a one on one, if you like we could do that.

i do have an interest in hearing what some of the other monotheists beliefs are concerning Jesus & God & it seems like a good place to discuss it with them on common ground

i do agree with you, we fall short. but not because God has limited us as humans, but because we lack understanding & quick understanding.

thanks again.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Bandit

thanks Luna. i appreciate that, bringing the two ways of seeing it together that way. especially since you have been on both sides of the fence.
i personally dont have an interest in discussing the different trinity doctrines, but maybe someday in a one on one, if you like we could do that.

i do have an interest in hearing what some of the other monotheists beliefs are concerning Jesus & God & it seems like a good place to discuss it with them on common ground

i do agree with you, we fall short. but not because God has limited us as humans, but because we lack understanding & quick understanding.

thanks again.

Hi Bandit, thank you for your response about my post. Really it's just some "out loud" thinking on my part, shared so that others can give me their perspective and maybe point out any serious errors in my understanding of doctrine. I don't feel like I have pat answers to any of this, but I grow by wrestling with it all...

peace,
lunamoth

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

As this conversation has turned to a discussion of the nature of a Manifestation of God, I'd just like to add that I have found both the Baha'i Model and the Christian Trinity to be helpful and enlightening in my quest to know God. These ideas are different and at odds, to be sure, but I think this is only because both ultimately fall short and are limited by human language and understanding. "It's a wave! No! It's a particle! But it has properties of a wave! But see, here it has the properties of a particle!" (1 Corinthians 13:12 NIV) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

great sentiments! I also happen to have a background in physics and specifically did much reading on quantum mechanics!

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The Baha'i model of the sun and mirror really helped me get a "feel" for the incarnation of God in Jesus. ...In the Baha'i Model, as far as I understand it, the Manifestation not only comes to give us guidance and love, but also then acts as a kind of secondary mirror. The Spirit that we personally receive in our lives is that which is reflected off, or through, the Manifestation of God. I alway got the picture of something like a filter, actually, protecting us from the full force of the knowledge, or Face, of God, which as we read in the OT would kill us instantly.

Actually there are references to this idea too ---"Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation hath been vouchsafed unto men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity. Consider the sun. How feeble its rays the moment it appeareth above the horizon. How gradually its warmth and potency increase as it approacheth its zenith, enabling meanwhile all created things to adapt themselves to the growing intensity of its light. How steadily it declineth until it reacheth its setting point. Were it, all of a sudden, to manifest the energies latent within it, it would, no doubt, cause injury to all created things.... In like manner, if the Sun of Truth were suddenly to reveal, at the earliest stages of its manifestation, the full measure of the potencies which the providence of the Almighty hath bestowed upon it, the earth of human understanding would waste away and be consumed; for men's hearts would neither sustain the intensity of its revelation, nor be able to mirror forth the radiance of its light. Dismayed and overpowered, they would cease to exist."

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The Trinity is different. One of the main differences I see is that the Trinity is not hierarchal, as the Baha'i sun and mirror model is: The Father, Son and Spirit are all equal and "interpenetrating" Persons of God in the Trinity. The Father is still often viewed "at the top," but all three Persons are involved in every act of God, rather than being three different phases of God. I've seen some explanations of the Baha'i model that suggest that Baha'u'llah, while being the return of Christ, is the return of Christ Spirit as the Father, rather than as the Son. However, with the exception of the sacrifice, the work of Jesus the Son seems to me to be the same as the work of the Manifestation Mediator in the Bahais view: teaching, loving, healing, redemption, salvation (although Baha'i does not emphasize redemption and individual salvation and, to my understanding, uses different language and metaphysical construct around this whole concept: no fall, no original sin).

Generally correct - however each Manifestation was given a specific Mission, a Revelelation which had eternal truths as well as specific applications to that era. Each religion established also set a specific mechanism for the promulgation and protection of that Revelation among the believers which Baha'is call the Lesser Covenant (the Greater Covenant being that the Manifestation is the Mediator of God's love and grace and our obedience and training.) Jesus' Station as the Son is the core of His Revelation in that sense.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

...
What I think is added by the concept of the Trinity is the powerful emphasis on the message that God is Love, and the love between the Three Persons of the Trinity is the source and perfect example of all the love we have and can have for God and each other.

While I agree that the reality referred to by the term Trinity depends on a most profound and penetrating personal love and sharing, the problem very inherent is that this description must be self-limiting to only Jesus' religion as we find it today. If the Trinity is the measure of that love for you, you can never find it in Krishna, Buddha, Moses, and so on. A Christian might agree with me there - but I say so not because that love was not present among Them as a Christian perhaps would maintain but because the word Trinity by definition must refer to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God-the-Father and not any other. It's alittle like the problem in religion studies when reviewing the divisions in a religion and calling them denominations when speaking of Islam or Buddhism. Denominations are explicitly a Christian reference. The idea is present in other religions but if you must us denomination as your measuring stick, then you are placing a barrier to other ways this idea is presented and supposing somehow Martin Luther is applicable to what happened to Ali and his successors which begs all kinds of cultural barriers.

Another thought I would share is that the wealth of Scripture the Baha'is have cannot be encapsulated in a few posts. Even a lifetime of study cannot adequetly attain to a full understanding of even one divine quality let alone the most important ones. And from our view the essence of this problem is the same in all the religions. Any path, taken seriously, with the full measure of heart, mind and soul, will be rewarded by God not because we will have earned it but because God loves us trying.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

In Baha'i we do not get the message of a bride marrying her Bridegroom, that final and complete merging with God for which we yearn in this life, an eternity in perfect love. In the next world, in the Baha'i view, we continue to strive, aided or perhaps handicapped by what we've accomplished or not here in this life.

Immediately I think of this albiet a preliminary translation. There are other things I can think of but the details require more time and care.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Just as with the Christian view of Jesus as fully human and fully divine, the dual station of Baha'u'llah poses a problem for the human intellect.

You may pardon the length but here's a quote from one of the greatest Baha'i philosophers about this very issue - and it's final resolution:

One of the laws and ordinances peculiar to the Bahai religion is the law prohibiting the interpretation of the Word of God. For interpretation of the Words and exposition of personal opinion has been one of the greatest means of dissension in the former religions. the cause of darkening the horizon of faith and concealing the real meaning of the Book of God.
It is an evident fact that learned men differ in their minds, and the natural gifts of sagacity and intelligence or the lack of understanding and comprehension vary in degrees among them. Thus when the door of interpretation and perverting of the Words from their outward meaning is opened, strange opinions and curious contradictory interpretations will result and different sects will arise among the one people and one religious community.
Consequently Baha’u’llah has explicitly commanded His followers to wholly abandon the door of interpretation and follow the Words revealed in the Tablets according to their outward meaning, so that the events which have transpired among the past nations should not recur among the Bahai people, and the unwelcome happenings which appeared among the various sects due to difference in mentality and viewpoint should not become manifest in this new auspicious day, which is the day of the glorious Lord.
Thus one of the explicit commands of this great Manifestation is the ordinance abrogating differences which separate men. It is because one of the occasions of dissension is difference of scholars with regard to the station of the Manifestation of the Cause. In former religions, even as testified by history, it has become evident that when in a question of this kind a difference has arisen between two of the doctors of religion, both parties were firm in their standpoints and held tenaciously to their sides, while the laity, according to their usage, would adhere some to one and some to another, thus closing the doors to agreement and unity to such an extent that religious fraternity was changed into deep and bitter enmity, scientific dissension terminating in bloody strife and warfare. This is illustrated by differences which arose between Arius the priest and Alexander the Bishop of Constantinople, regarding the Trinity, in the fourth century AD; also the Nestorian differences which took place in the fifth century between Nestorius the Bishop of Constantinople and other bishops, which caused terrible wars and the shedding of precious blood. The effect of these sad dissensions has lasted until the present day. These are clear proofs and evidences for the point at issue.
Time does not allow us to make mention of the numerous sects and divisions of the Gnostics and others, of which the church historians have counted more than thirty, and incorporated them under the term: “Born of philosophy.” All seekers of full accounts are referred to authoritative books on the subject, in order that they may clearly realize that all these divisions and sects came from the disagreements of the doctors as to the degree and station of His Holiness Christ, and their persistence in their respective opinions. The subject of disagreement by the doctors as to the station of the Manifestation of God has been one of those abstruse and difficult questions to solve which proved beyond the power of great minds and baffled a mighty king like Constantine the Great. For notwithstanding the assistance and co-operation of the great bishops of the East and West he could not reconcile the various parties to the Aryan controversy. Nay, during this long time the power of local councils, the sword of European powers and the verdicts of Inquisitorial Boards failed to remove divisions and schisms caused by metaphysical discussions. But the removal of this indissoluble knot and incurable disease by the easiest of means has been announced in the holy Bahai literature, for Baha’u’llah in one of His holy Tablets has clearly revealed the following: “Since men differ in their degree of knowledge, if two persons should be found to possess different viewpoints as regards the degree and station of the Manifestation of God, both are acceptable before God, for, in accord with the blessed verse: `Verily, we have created souls different in degrees;’ God has created men different in understanding and diverse in manners. But if those having two points of view engage in conflict and strife while expressing their views, both of them are rejected. For, by knowing the Manifestation of God it is intended to unify the hearts, cultivate souls and to teach the truth of God, whereas conflict and strife of two persons with two different points of view would do harm to the Cause of God. Consequently both of them are referred to the fire.” This was the purpose of the blessed Tablet in brief. Accordingly in the Holy Cause no one has power to create inharmony, and because of fear of falling, no one dares to persist in his own opinion at the expense of harmony."

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Better to not worry too much about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and just leave it up to our hearts.

I offer this in the Spirit of greater understanding and I welcome any insights you all might have.

Allah u'Abha Friends, and In His Peace,
lunamoth

You have spoken well and we are in much aggreement.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Bandit, thank you for your response about my post. Really it's just some "out loud" thinking on my part, shared so that others can give me their perspective and maybe point out any serious errors in my understanding of doctrine. I don't feel like I have pat answers to any of this, but I grow by wrestling with it all...

peace,
lunamoth

what? you dont want a free bus ticket to know it all land? (tease)
neither do i

stay cool & sweet as pie, sister Lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Hello, Steven, thank you for the reply to my post. Much to think about. I agree with the Baha'i view that we should not allow our various interpretations and understandings to act as barriers between us. I do not try to make excuses for the atrocities and violence done in the name of doctrine, be it the Christian Trinity or another doctrine. I try to be very aware of harm coming from doctrine wherever I see it.

Isn't it also a Baha'i teaching that every Word of God has many meanings? Certainly when people read The Seven Valleys they uncover many layers of meaning with each new reading. Maybe I read it wrong, but the long quote you posted seemed in imply that Baha'u'llah's writings have one literal sense and that is all anyone should try to take away from it. But, I admit, I read it kind of fast. I'll try to come back and give it more time later.

peace,
lunamoth

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Isn't it also a Baha'i teaching that every Word of God has many meanings? Certainly when people read The Seven Valleys they uncover many layers of meaning with each new reading.

It is in general true that every Word has many meanings - but some of them are literal. Ussually not ONLY literal, but at least sometimes yes, literal.

And may I say the Seven Valleys is perhaps my most favorite Baha'i Scripture!? Just wonderful, though complimented by other Works as well.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Maybe I read it wrong, but the long quote you posted seemed in imply that Baha'u'llah's writings have one literal sense and that is all anyone should try to take away from it. But, I admit, I read it kind of fast. I'll try to come back and give it more time later.

It is a bit long, but thought the weight of the subject deserved some length.

But no it doesn't mean that the Writtings have one literal sense. It means that people's perception of truth varies fundamentally because people differ - though usually there is significant overlap. So a full resolution of any theological position may be impossible if limited to only one pov. So multiple points of view may be inevitable as well as necessary and {executive summary about to start} differing views that do not result in needless argument or estrangement are ok, while ones that do are *both* wrong. Or to put it even more quickly - "if two argue, both are wrong." This is a general maxim in the Baha'i Faith but it was established originally about the very question of the of the nature of the Manifestation.

Sounds great short and sweet - but as the quote above notes, no other teachings has caused more division and strife, including a fair amount of bloodshed, that people differing over the nature of the Manifestation. However I would also note that just because people differ doesn't make them right.

[smkolins]

Now perhaps but more time on the question of the Bride and Groom....

One theme related is reference to the "Maid of Heaven" - this does not mean a cleaning lady - it means a Maid as in Maiden. Here's a search of references.

Another weighty angle on the issue is the form the Holy Spirit has taken, from a Baha'i pov, with regard to the "the Vehicle of [each] newborn Revelation"in augurating each Revelation "... the soul-shaking experience of Moses when confronted by the Burning Bush in the wilderness of Sinai; of Zoroaster when awakened to His mission by a succession of seven visions; of Jesus when coming out of the waters of the Jordan He saw the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove and light upon Him; of Muhammad when in the Cave of Hira, outside of the holy city of Mecca, the voice of Gabriel bade Him "cry in the name of Thy Lord"; and of the Báb when in a dream He approached the bleeding head of the Imám Husayn, and, quaffing the blood that dripped from his lacerated throat, awoke to find Himself the chosen recipient of the outpouring grace of the Almighty.
...
such a Revelation was, as already noted, born amidst the darkness of a subterranean dungeon in Tihrán.... Wrapped in its stygian gloom, breathing its fetid air, numbed by its humid and icy atmosphere, His feet in stocks, His neck weighed down by a mighty chain, surrounded by criminals and miscreants of the worst order, oppressed by the consciousness of the terrible blot that had stained the fair name of His beloved Faith, painfully aware of the dire distress that had overtaken its champions, and of the grave dangers that faced the remnant of its followers--at so critical an hour and under such appalling circumstances the "Most Great Spirit," as designated by Himself, and symbolized in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the Angel Gabriel respectively, descended upon, and revealed itself, personated by a "Maiden," to the agonized soul of Bahá'u'lláh.

"One night in a dream," He Himself, calling to mind, in the evening of His life, the first stirrings of God's Revelation within His soul, has written, "these exalted words were heard on every side: `Verily, We shall render Thee victorious by Thyself and by Thy pen. Grieve Thou not for that which hath befallen Thee, neither be Thou afraid, for Thou art in safety. Ere long will God raise up the treasures of the earth--men who will aid Thee through Thyself and through Thy Name, wherewith God hath revived the hearts of such as have recognized Him.'" In another passage He describes, briefly and graphically, the impact of the onrushing force of the Divine Summons upon His entire being--an experience vividly recalling the vision of God that caused Moses to fall in a swoon, and the voice of Gabriel which plunged Muhammad into such consternation that, hurrying to the shelter of His home, He bade His wife, Khadíjih, envelop Him in His mantle. "During the days I lay in the prison of Tihrán," are His own memorable words, "though the galling weight of the chains and the stench-filled air allowed Me but little sleep, still in those infrequent moments of slumber I felt as if something flowed from the crown of My head over My breast, even as a mighty torrent that precipitateth itself upon the earth from the summit of a lofty mountain. Every limb of My body would, as a result, be set afire. At such moments My tongue recited what no man could bear to hear."

In His Súratu'l-Haykal (the Súrih of the Temple) He thus describes those breathless moments when the Maiden, symbolizing the "Most Great Spirit" proclaimed His mission to the entire creation: "While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden-- the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord--suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt earth and heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God's honored servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in heaven and all who are on earth, saying: `By God! This is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His Treasure, the Cause of God and His glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of Revelation and of creation, if ye be of them that perceive.'"

[lunamoth]

Hi Steven, thank you for your replies. What can I say except that I agree with the Baha'i view that metaphysical beliefs should never be a reason to argue and divide. Not that everyone needs to believe the same thing...I think by listening to each other we can grow spiritually stronger.

I love The Seven Valleys--really Baha'u'llah's deepest and most mystical work. I did not have time to read the long poem on love that you said was a provisional translation--perhaps there are a lot more mystical works left untranslated.

Thanks too for the post on the Maid of Heaven. I think Barefootgirl has a thread here somewhere on a similar theme. Certainly it is a moving passage.

Allah u'Abha,
lunamoth

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Steven, thank you for your replies. What can I say except that I agree with the Baha'i view that metaphysical beliefs should never be a reason to argue and divide. Not that everyone needs to believe the same thing...I think by listening to each other we can grow spiritually stronger.

It is interesting that there is a Month of Questions in the Baha'i Calendar, but not one of Answers!

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I love The Seven Valleys--really Baha'u'llah's deepest and most mystical work. I did not have time to read the long poem on love that you said was a provisional translation--perhaps there are a lot more mystical works left untranslated.

Have you read Attar's Conference of the Birds? It's the model of the formula Baha'u'llah uses for the Seven Valleys.

Also you should read Gems of Divine Virtues and the Book of Certitude - both elaborate on some details (especially Gems - it mentions valleys not mentioned in Seven Valleys except vaguely, and has another angle about this and the Book of Revelations that raised my eyebrows!)

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Thanks too for the post on the Maid of Heaven. I think Barefootgirl has a thread here somewhere on a similar theme. Certainly it is a moving passage.

I recall one about spirituality and women. I was grappling with the theme of the Bride and the Groom - there is more there to be plummed. Notably the topic personal love and devotion... for example:

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.

O SON OF UTTERANCE!
Turn thy face unto Mine and renounce all save Me; for My sovereignty endureth and My dominion perisheth not. If thou seekest another than Me, yea, if thou searchest the universe for evermore, thy quest will be in vain.

O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.

O SON OF MAN!
Be thou content with Me and seek no other helper. For none but Me can ever suffice thee.

O SON OF SPIRIT!
Ask not of Me that which We desire not for thee, then be content with what We have ordained for thy sake, for this is that which profiteth thee, if therewith thou dost content thyself.

O SON OF THE WONDROUS VISION!
I have breathed within thee a breath of My own Spirit, that thou mayest be My lover. Why hast thou forsaken Me and sought a beloved other than Me?

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Allah u'Abha,
lunamoth

Allah'u'Abha!

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by smkolins

Have you read Attar's Conference of the Birds? It's the model of the formula Baha'u'llah uses for the Seven Valleys.

Also you should read Gems of Divine Virtues and the Book of Certitude - both elaborate on some details (especially Gems - it mentions valleys not mentioned in Seven Valleys except vaguely, and has another angle about this and the Book of Revelations that raised my eyebrows!)

I've read the Kitab-I-Iqan, but not the Conference of the Birds or Gems of Divine Virtues. I did not realize that Baha'u'llah wrote anything else specifically explaining St. John's Revelation.

O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.

O SON OF UTTERANCE!
Turn thy face unto Mine and renounce all save Me; for My sovereignty endureth and My dominion perisheth not. If thou seekest another than Me, yea, if thou searchest the universe for evermore, thy quest will be in vain.

O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.

O SON OF MAN!
Be thou content with Me and seek no other helper. For none but Me can ever suffice thee.

Allah'u'Abha!

Lots of wisdom in those Hidden Words.

peace,
lunamoth

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I've read the Kitab-I-Iqan, but not the Conference of the Birds or Gems of Divine Virtues. I did not realize that Baha'u'llah wrote anything else specifically explaining St. John's Revelation.

And alittle typo - not "Virtues", "Mysteries" - "Gems of Divine Mysteries"

I'll have to dig up the particulars but alittle research brought me back to "descending with this city[the City of Immortality] from the heaven of the Unseen"

I've never seen any other reference to a City descending from Heaven except the New Jerusalem mentioned in St. John's Revelation.

[smkolins]

One last contribution to where this thread has gone... on the topic of the Bride and Groom... one of the ways this ideal is applied is when the community of Faith is wedded with the Call of God - and this is often concretely presented with the priestly or similar group and their living devotion and service to the community of the faithful.

The Baha'i Faith has it's history of individuals given special roles or authority. But the institutional life of the Baha'i Faith went a different direction. One detail is that the Baha'i Faith has no priestly class perse, or nuns or similar. We have appointed and elected institutions with various responsabilities and capacities but neither can be termed priestly. Ascetism and leading a life apart are denied Baha'is - our scripture calls us to engage and be with the world, though not of the world, (though exactly how is up to us.)

So the form of the Community of Faith as the Bride has a very different angle in the Baha'i Faith. Spiritual Assemblies, as precursors of the Houses of Justice, are the central institution remaining of the Faith - and the Universal House of Justice is the Capstone of that and all institutions of the Faith. We also have individuals who serve as supporters or protectors, of the community of the believers - with dependent authority on, ultimately that Universal House of Justice, as required by our Scripture, and the real emphasis is on the elected institutions.

And the primary means of the Assemblies connecting with the body of the community is through the Feast - where Scripture, discussion and breaking bread together happen. Where we listen to the concerns of the Assemblies, and where we offer our concerns to the Assemblies in a very mutual relationship.

[InChristAlways]

Christians may use the excuse of the Old Testament not being valid ecetera but jesus himself honoured the Old Testament and wanted his christians to follow it

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Embrace Islam you shall be saved

If Islam believes in Jesus, they also are "Christ-ans", since Christ means "anointed", you also are "anointed" unto belief of His name, correct?

Jesus honored the OC Law because as the Son of Man/Woman, He was born under Law/Flesh/Adam, but as the Son of God, He was born of the Spirit/Truth and the 2nd Adam.

The gentiles outside of Israel never had the LAW, only Israel did. And why would the Lord Jesus use the quote of "the Law "in relation to "heaven and earth" and I would wonder why Islam would believe in a Great Prophet that was sent to jews as a "Passover Lamb" to bring both their Nations of Judah and and its sister Israel together again and atone for their sins.

Half the Law was aborragated when God had the jewish temple and sanctuary destroyed in the first century, so instead of following the Whole Law and ordinances, they follow the ones put forth in their own Talmud and oral writings, much like Islam does through their Quran.

Matt 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy [#2647] the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[#4137] 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. [#4137]

Gala 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled [#4137] in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

This is what the jewish religion today is still waiting on. Who is the "jew" in Zech 8:23?

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/2houses.htm

ZECHARIAH 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations take firm hold the garment/wing of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that."God is with you ' "

Currently, most Jews (the House of Judah) don't accept Yeshua as the Messiah. Conversely, most Christians (the House of Israel) don't accept the necessity of keeping Torah (the Law). The Israel of God (Gal. 6:16), made up of those from both houses who are standing in the gap, accept both Yeshua and the Torah. But as numerous prophecies show, God will reunite Judah and Ephraim under the Messiah in the land of Israel. Very soon, Jews and Christians will recognize the respective flaws in their belief systems. Both houses of Israel will repent and be joined together, as Ezekiel prophesied. May that glorious day come soon. Baruch HaShem!

[Faithfulservant]

Unfortunately... We've all heard this opinion before. You are not breaking new ground posting it. Will it revolutionalize our thinking? no..

Have a nice day


FS

[taijasi]

You have a nice day too.

-A