Jesus Died A Natural Death.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by earl

Hmm-this raises an interesting interpretation of the terms Son of Man & Holy Spirit as well as "blasphemy." If we take the Holy Spirit to be the actions of "God" on a person perhaps "blasphemy" of it is in essence to turn away from its transforming effects-to turn away from the "kingdom of heaven." It would not be forgiven in the sense that we are turning away from the opportunity to grow into that kingdom, whereas to blapheme the Son of Man perhaps implies not responding to a particular embodiment of the Holy Spirit. Whatcha all think? Take care, Earl

This is much as I see it Earl. The context of this was when Jesus was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub and he retorts: "How can Satan drive out Satan?" The whole upshot seems to me to that if you deny that which is the blessing of the Spirit, in effect say that those fruits are not good, you are denying that there is really truth and goodness and mercy and peace and joy and grace. And if you deny it, how can you partake in it? Jesus has gone around healing people and instead of calling this good people accuse Him of being a demon, which is saying that something good is actually evil. Very much like turning away from the Kingdom, denying oneself the opportunity to commune with God. Take it to an extreme, say someone who has acted very evil their whole life, yet they perform one beautiful act of mercy or healing. They may have acted demonic most of the time, but to say that that good act is demonic is to blaspheme the Spirit. And at the other end of the spectrum, someone who has had a life totally filled with the fruit of the Spirit, yet does not "believe" in God/Jesus. To say that that person is not of the Spirit is to deny that very Spirit. Probably going to get flamed for this one...

[Bandit]

it appears to me also that the scribes here were found guilty of a sin for which there is no forgiveness for?
BECAUSE they refused to acknowledge the power & work behind Jesus & that was of the Holy Ghost (God).

What they were doing was calling Jesus unclean for doing a good thing denying the power & authority that backed Him which was the power to cast out Satan.

Now back to the forgiveness part. They can blaspheme Jesus (son of man) & be forgiven (yes they can be forgiven).
But if they blashpheme the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven as in NEVER.

so which is it? can the scribes be forgiven or not?
it is obvious they did not want to partake in it & rejected it.

& HOW is it one can blaspheme the person Jesus & be forgiven, but to blaspheme the Holy Ghost & not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28 & Matt 12:31

so what I think it is, one can blaspheme the person Jesus, but not the power that was in Jesus, which is the Holy Ghost (God).

IMO, this would apply to unbelievers & preclude forgiveness & preclude repentance, that there heart would be so hardened that they cannot see the difference in that which is of God & that which is of Satan.
reminds me of Pharao dealing with Moses, but denying the power that was behind Moses.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

right. this all looks right to me too but there was more than just love being shed there. there was reconciliation & obedience to a commandment also.

An other way to see the same thing is to see love before it, during it, and after it. Love of God for man and man for God. Love calls reconciliation and obedience and all the divine qualities, grace, forgiveness.... If it was mear tenderness or affection, it wouldn't bear reverence.

Originally Posted by Bandit

i have read your writings on God & Jesus smkolins, seeing each other in a mirror & that is how i see it too, but we cannot make Jesus any less than what the scriptures say he is, because in reality through essence Jesus is God in authority & in power, so he may as well be God

Simplification can make things simple, but also get one in trouble. For example, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." is not the same as "The Word was God."

If one's purpose is to note the relationship, then certainly the Baha'i Writings say "Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world."

But there is more to be said, and has been said. In the Baha'i Writtings it also says "And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: "Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is." And in like manner, the words: "Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee." He similarly saith: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants." The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: "I am but a man like you." "Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?" These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men's hearts."

Originally Posted by Bandit

the problem i see when people make him just a man is they make him less than who he really is. I believe he was just a man like us all, but there is way more to it....how ,when , what & where.

Certainly the truth.

[smkolins]

BTW, an interesting detail of the views about what a Manifestation of God is from a Baha'i view can be gleaned from noting the position of a moderately obscure figure from Christian history - the first attempt at splintering the Christian Church was by Arius. "Consider thou, at the time of Christ and after Him, how many childish attempts have been made by different persons! What claims they have advanced and what a multitude have they gathered around themselves! Even Arius attracted to himself a million and a half followers and strove and endeavored to sow the seeds of sedition in the Cause of Christ. But eventually the sea of Christ surged and cast out all the gathering froth and nothing was left behind save everlasting malediction."

Many people note the Council of Nicea for other reasons but the key development of this meeting was the tearing out of the Arian heresy (which btw has nothing to do with the Nazis, however heinous that issue is as well.) For an interesting read consider this wikipedia article

Specifically consider his theology
"- that the Logos and the Father were not of the same essence (ousia);
- that the Son was a created being (ktisma or poiema); and
- that though He was the creator of the worlds, and must therefore have existed before them and before all time, there was a "time" [although Arius refused to use words meaning time, such as cronos or aion] when He did not exist."

These are not Baha'i positions. But in reacting to the arian heresy, perhaps Christianity leapt a bit farther than it had to. Simplification can get you in all kinds of trouble.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by smkolins

An other way to see the same thing is to see love before it, during it, and after it. Love of God for man and man for God. Love calls reconciliation and obedience and all the divine qualities, grace, forgiveness.... If it was mear tenderness or affection, it wouldn't bear reverence.

yes & also the love of one man for the rest of the human race that we all could have eternal life.
Jesus was the only one who could do this & he was the bondman (so to speak). Jesus did NOT want to go to the cross, but he did because he knew he had to do it. It was required & it was required of a perfect sinless man.


"Lo I come through the volume of the book, to do thy will it is written of me..."
It was God looking at himself through the man Jesus & Jesus ion his life submitting to the perfect will of God, thus Jesus becomes God manifested in the flesh. NOT God in the flesh, but God manifested.

Originally Posted by smkolins

Simplification can make things simple, but also get one in trouble. For example, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." is not the same as "The Word was God."

I agree. I dont discuss this verse with too many people because they miss WHAT BEGINNING & when was the beginning. Everyone jumps first gear.

Originally Posted by smkolins

If one's purpose is to note the relationship, then certainly the Baha'i Writings say "Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world."

I do note the relationship of God & Jesus, but i cannot tell if you are putting Jesus on the same level as the others of Gods servants. Jesus is at the top, though a servant & mediator, he is also above us & equal with God.

Originally Posted by smkolins

But there is more to be said, and has been said. In the Baha'i Writtings it also says "And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: "Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is." And in like manner, the words: "Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee." He similarly saith: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants." The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: "I am but a man like you." "Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?" These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men's hearts."

I cannot tell what you are trying to say here. it reminds me a little of the Christian Science Church.

This part does not sound right to me

And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal

Jesus is the tie of direct intercourse that binds the one true God with His creation & Jesus is that resemblance.
the rest looks ok to me, but that is just me
& yes there is more to be said & i have enjoyed talking to you a lot.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by smkolins

BTW, an interesting detail of the views about what a Manifestation of God is from a Baha'i view can be gleaned from noting the position of a moderately obscure figure from Christian history - the first attempt at splintering the Christian Church was by Arius. "Consider thou, at the time of Christ and after Him, how many childish attempts have been made by different persons! What claims they have advanced and what a multitude have they gathered around themselves! Even Arius attracted to himself a million and a half followers and strove and endeavored to sow the seeds of sedition in the Cause of Christ. But eventually the sea of Christ surged and cast out all the gathering froth and nothing was left behind save everlasting malediction."

Many people note the Council of Nicea for other reasons but the key development of this meeting was the tearing out of the Arian heresy (which btw has nothing to do with the Nazis, however heinous that issue is as well.) For an interesting read consider this wikipedia article

Specifically consider his theology
"- that the Logos and the Father were not of the same essence (ousia);
- that the Son was a created being (ktisma or poiema); and
- that though He was the creator of the worlds, and must therefore have existed before them and before all time, there was a "time" [although Arius refused to use words meaning time, such as cronos or aion] when He did not exist."

These are not Baha'i positions. But in reacting to the arian heresy, perhaps Christianity leapt a bit farther than it had to. Simplification can get you in all kinds of trouble.

Yes i know. I have studied all this too. No one acheived what they wanted.
I dont follow Arius either, but i understand what he believed. i think he just had his timing off a little on when Jesus actually came into the picture in his preeminence. Kind of like God made a spirit by giving birth to it or something.

God can make spirits & make flesh, but he can only beget the spirit of men. He does not beget angels & deities.

Another one i found interesting was Tertullian. he had God as one substance. then God like(sort of) divided himself into 3rds, then at the end of the plan, God goes back to being one substance. He never used the word persons like some of the others. His beliefs pretty much got trampled too, even though he was one of the first to come up with the belief of trinitarianism.

I stick with what the Bible says the best that I can, word for word w/o adding or creating words or a doctrine to try & explain it.
The bible says Jesus was a man.

I think they messed up too the way they treated each other for some kind of earthly power. I dont follow any of them & have no plans of joining any organized religion. But i think some people need something to get them started in the right direction, so even in all the turmoil & confusion they put each other through, i think it had to be that way in order to get it to us in our generation.

i dont know exactly how Bahai sees it, but so far you & i have been pretty close to seeing it the same as far as the godhead part. (i think)
not sure what you see in the preeminence end of it.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Bandit

it appears to me also that the scribes here were found guilty of a sin for which there is no forgiveness for?
BECAUSE they refused to acknowledge the power & work behind Jesus & that was of the Holy Ghost (God).

What they were doing was calling Jesus unclean for doing a good thing denying the power & authority that backed Him which was the power to cast out Satan.

Now back to the forgiveness part. They can blaspheme Jesus (son of man) & be forgiven (yes they can be forgiven).
But if they blashpheme the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven as in NEVER.

so which is it? can the scribes be forgiven or not?
it is obvious they did not want to partake in it & rejected it.

& HOW is it one can blaspheme the person Jesus & be forgiven, but to blaspheme the Holy Ghost & not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28 & Matt 12:31

so what I think it is, one can blaspheme the person Jesus, but not the power that was in Jesus, which is the Holy Ghost (God).

hello bandit,

my question might not seem adequate however i understood as there are two souls in one?
though is there a milestone in Jesus's life that holy sprit entered personna Jesus, making him the Christ or is it in just referring, blasphemy is not forgettable you say?

summer

[Faithfulservant]

I agree with you on the blaspheming the Spirit, luna. I believe its the continual rejection of God. I believe that Paul and John speaks of sin leading to death which I believe is concerning spiritual death.. which is the continual rejection of Christ.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

hello bandit,

my question might not seem adequate however i understood as there are two souls in one?
though is there a milestone in Jesus's life that holy sprit entered personna Jesus, making him the Christ or is it in just referring, blasphemy is not forgettable you say?

summer

that is what i see. two souls in one. God was IN Jesus, making Jesus the Christ. Prior to Jesus, God held back his spirit from becoming one with man because of Adams transgression. Then after Jesus' death burial & resurrection, God poured out his spirit upon all flesh.

(not forgettable, but unforgivable)
i feel what Jesus was saying here is something like this, (& this is just my interpretation)

"You can say bad things about me, you can spit on me, you can deny me & reject me & crucify me & it will be forgiven. But if someone denies God or slanders God, or cannot see the good works & power that God THROUGH Jesus, was manifesting, it is a sin that will not be forgiven.
In reality it is a two edged sword & the person who blasphemes God or the power & works of God, they bring judgment on themsleves & decide not to be partakers in the inheritance with Christ.
They reject God, so what else is God supposed to do?

i think there is more than one way to blaspheme. Fortunately I have not known too many people in my life who do this.

What do you think?

& i dont understand what you mean by this:

though is there a milestone in Jesus's life that holy sprit entered personna Jesus

or do you mean was there a specific time the Holy Ghost entered Jesus?
if that is what you mean, then my answer is yes.

Luke4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.

Jordan was the begining of his ministry & the first time on record that God spoke & declared Jesus as His son. all other references are prophecy and after Jordan. as you can see here, Jesus was being LED by the spirit...& he was not doing this all by himself.

The Holy Ghost is God taking His abode in us & becoming one with us.


I hope that helps & you can talk about it with me if you want to


What do you think about it PersonaNonGrata?

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I agree with you on the blaspheming the Spirit, luna. I believe its the continual rejection of God. I believe that Paul and John speaks of sin leading to death which I believe is concerning spiritual death.. which is the continual rejection of Christ.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

all negative words? Besides righteousness is a very elastic word if you ask me.
Like are there codes for sins? Say like giving grades?

i totally agree on blaspheming the sprit might put a curtain in your eyes. SİN. Even may lead you darkness and make a personna see the place he lives in a place where there is no hope, left him in despair or a world not to bother for, or make you leave an unpleasant taste. NO? Most of our actions determine, the Will!
Results all comes back to you when you die? I really dont think so, it is affecting this consciousness' as well if you ask me.
So, thats a very nice paraphrising of Bible, i mean Romans 6:16

a little ironic as well:/

[PersonaNonGrata]

Thank you much more clearer Bandit, though dont you think its at least a little bit weird that Holly Sprited Body had to suffer a lot? but right no damage could be done to the Soul.
So I see inner you as the utmost Bandit, Jesus was Jesus accusing Him could be forgiveable, though NOT ethic AT ALL.
On the other hand soul is God's or one can take it to a step saying who else is God if not ME, thus this deeper ME must be Respected fully and any blasphemy will be punished in hell.

yes thats how i think

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

Thank you much more clearer Bandit, though dont you think its at least a little bit weird that Holly Sprited Body had to suffer a lot? but right no damage could be done to the Soul.
So I see inner you as the utmost Bandit, Jesus was Jesus accusing Him could be forgiveable, though NOT ethic AT ALL.
On the other hand soul is God's or one can take it to a step saying who else is God if not ME, thus this deeper ME must be Respected fully and any blasphemy will be punished in hell.

yes thats how i think

that is what i think too. the Holy Spirit suffered with Jesus. but it is different because God is bigger & more powerful than people & God is the comforter for our soul. One day there will be no more suffering for anyone. Only eternal peace & joy, that only God can give & the pain of death will be no more.
Like you say, when the soul of man becomes one with the soul of God, there can be no damage

I think Jesus was giving a warning of the danger we can be in, when he told them not to blaspheme & like you say, God must be respected.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I do note the relationship of God & Jesus, but i cannot tell if you are putting Jesus on the same level as the others of Gods servants. Jesus is at the top, though a servant & mediator, he is also above us & equal with God.

Someone has put it this way :

This part of the symbol comprises three levels.... Together they represent the underlying belief which is the basis of all the religions of God. They are as follows:
(1) The World of God – The Creator
(2) The World of the Prophets or Manifestation – Cause, or Command
(3) The World of Man – Creation.

The followers of all religions believe that man, left to himself, can never recognize God and attain His presence; nor is man able to fathom the mystery and purpose of his own creation. God, in His unlimited bounty has singled out His Chosen Ones and will continue to do so, sending them to man at different times and ages in order to grant him penetrating insight and to enable him to have a glimpse of the unfading glories of the innumerable worlds beyond.

The Prophets accept descent from their realms on high and suffer the abasement of living in human temples, walking amongst men and speaking their languages. The Manifestations are invariably denied, ridiculed, humiliated and even put to death. Were it not for their spiritual upliftment and leadership, man would have continued to live as a wild beast and would have been eternally doomed to deprivation and loss.
...
Contrary to this, mystics believe in only two worlds; the world of God and the world of man. They proclaim that should man cleanse himself from all worldly desires and earthly attachments, he will be enabled to attain the presence of his Lord, the Creator. The mystics claim there is no need for an intermediary link between God and His creation. They therefore believe in, and practise, ascetic life which sometimes takes them to secluded corners of the world, occasionally in the mountains, forests, and jungles. This hermit's life is utterly forbidden by the mighty Pen of Bahá'u'lláh because He desires every man to be a fruitful member of the society he lives in.
The Bahá'ís believe that no matter what height of spiritual, scientific and material success man may reach, he is and will forever be in need of divine guidance bestowed upon him by the Prophets of God. It is only through Them that man can comprehend the secrets of true civilisation and recognize the Will of God and His Purpose.
...
Let us ponder once more upon this design and behold with our own eyes the perfect realization of Christ's prayer. The lights of the Kingdom on High are mirrored forth by the Manifestations of God upon the plane of creation, thus fulfilling the promise of the appearance of God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven.

Originally Posted by Bandit

Quote:
And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal

This part does not sound right to me Jesus is the tie of direct intercourse that binds the one true God with His creation & Jesus is that resemblance.

"since there can be no tie of direct intercourse... He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven...."

Originally Posted by Bandit

& yes there is more to be said & i have enjoyed talking to you a lot.

Thanks. It gave me a chance to dig up some thoughts I've had over the years.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by smkolins

Someone has put it this way :.

Yá Bahá'u'l-Abhá – This is an invocation. It means "O Glory of the All-Glorious."

I did read this page, but for some reason they left out the connection there with Jesus & his name. Because the scripture says Jesus was given a name above all names & that the whole family of heaven & earth is named after him & neither is there salvation in any other name... Wether it be Jesus, Yeshua, Iesous Christos, Jezus, or other language.
I wonder why they left Jesus name out when they made the name here? It appeared they left out some of the New Testament, while looking at the other books. Not sure.

This part of the symbol comprises three levels.... Together they represent the underlying belief which is the basis of all the religions of God. They are as follows:
(1) The World of God – The Creator
(2) The World of the Prophets or Manifestation – Cause, or Command
(3) The World of Man – Creation.

i agree & we could see it like this too if we drop the 'L'...
1. the Word- God the spoken word in creation
2. the Word- the bible the written word in manifestation
3. the Word- Jesus the living word

The followers of all religions believe that man, left to himself, can never recognize God and attain His presence; nor is man able to fathom the mystery and purpose of his own creation. God, in His unlimited bounty has singled out His Chosen Ones and will continue to do so, sending them to man at different times and ages in order to grant him penetrating insight and to enable him to have a glimpse of the unfading glories of the innumerable worlds beyond.

yes i agree & he gave some teachers, some prophets, some evangelists & some pastors...

The Prophets accept descent from their realms on high and suffer the abasement of living in human temples, walking amongst men and speaking their languages. The Manifestations are invariably denied, ridiculed, humiliated and even put to death. Were it not for their spiritual upliftment and leadership, man would have continued to live as a wild beast and would have been eternally doomed to deprivation and loss.

well, i am not going to question or ridicule others for seeing someone as a prophet. i may not agree but it is not my place to try & talk someone out of that. it almost sounds kind of like mysticism & I am not a mystic, but i understand what is being said here. I cant say the prophets were above us, then descended into human temples, not even Jesus. i see it the other way around. they started out as men, then went on to share the glory of God because they did there best while on earth.
but if you want to see it the other way around, that is ok.
...

Contrary to this, mystics believe in only two worlds; the world of God and the world of man. They proclaim that should man cleanse himself from all worldly desires and earthly attachments, he will be enabled to attain the presence of his Lord, the Creator. The mystics claim there is no need for an intermediary link between God and His creation. They therefore believe in, and practise, ascetic life which sometimes takes them to secluded corners of the world, occasionally in the mountains, forests, and jungles. This hermit's life is utterly forbidden by the mighty Pen of Bahá'u'lláh because He desires every man to be a fruitful member of the society he lives in.
The Bahá'ís believe that no matter what height of spiritual, scientific and material success man may reach, he is and will forever be in need of divine guidance bestowed upon him by the Prophets of God. It is only through Them that man can comprehend the secrets of true civilisation and recognize the Will of God and His Purpose.

I agree with the Bahai here. I am not a mystic & yes we need divine guidance. this is why God will put his spirit into us, so that he will guide us into all truth. We live in a different dispensation since Jesus & the prophets, the age of grace.
all the other prophets have not been resurrected yet that i can see, but only Jesus was resurrected so far.
...

Originally Posted by smkolins

Let us ponder once more upon this design and behold with our own eyes the perfect realization of Christ's prayer. The lights of the Kingdom on High are mirrored forth by the Manifestations of God upon the plane of creation, thus fulfilling the promise of the appearance of God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven.

this looks good to me & we are in agreement.

Originally Posted by smkolins

"since there can be no tie of direct intercourse... He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven....":.

this is worded better with the ... in between & the way i see it too, but i am still seeing Jesus as the only one who was pure & stainless in his whole life, but i believe we can become perfected & reach that state of perfection over time if we try.

Thanks. It gave me a chance to dig up some thoughts I've had over the years.

Me too & any time smkolins

[lunamoth]

As this conversation has turned to a discussion of the nature of a Manifestation of God, I'd just like to add that I have found both the Baha'i Model and the Christian Trinity to be helpful and enlightening in my quest to know God. These ideas are different and at odds, to be sure, but I think this is only because both ultimately fall short and are limited by human language and understanding. "It's a wave! No! It's a particle! But it has properties of a wave! But see, here it has the properties of a particle!" (1 Corinthians 13:12 NIV) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The Baha'i model of the sun and mirror really helped me get a "feel" for the incarnation of God in Jesus. Probably both Baha'is and Christians will object to this particular synthesis, but I'll press on... As I understand it, the Sun is a metaphor for God, the source of all light and being. The Spirit is God's light, His love and the "force," if you will, of all His attributes, shining down on us all the time. The Manifestation of God in Jesus is the perfect reflection of God's Light limited only by the human frame and the physical limits of our universe, as a sun's rays are limited by the mirror. But, as much of God as a human could possibly comprehend was fully present in Jesus, and since we are not talking about material world light here, but the spiritual light, I think it is appropriate to say this was the incarnation of God. Jesus was fully human and fully God, but God was not limited to Jesus' human frame during His time among us. In the Baha'i Model, as far as I understand it, the Manifestation not only comes to give us guidance and love, but also then acts as a kind of secondary mirror. The Spirit that we personally receive in our lives is that which is reflected off, or through, the Manifestation of God. I alway got the picture of something like a filter, actually, protecting us from the full force of the knowledge, or Face, of God, which as we read in the OT would kill us instantly.

The Trinity is different. One of the main differences I see is that the Trinity is not hierarchal, as the Baha'i sun and mirror model is: The Father, Son and Spirit are all equal and "interpenetrating" Persons of God in the Trinity. The Father is still often viewed "at the top," but all three Persons are involved in every act of God, rather than being three different phases of God. I've seen some explanations of the Baha'i model that suggest that Baha'u'llah, while being the return of Christ, is the return of Christ Spirit as the Father, rather than as the Son. However, with the exception of the sacrifice, the work of Jesus the Son seems to me to be the same as the work of the Manifestation Mediator in the Bahais view: teaching, loving, healing, redemption, salvation (although Baha'i does not emphasize redemption and individual salvation and, to my understanding, uses different language and metaphysical construct around this whole concept: no fall, no original sin).

The Trinity emphasaizes the experience humans have had of God as recorded in the Bible and also the centrality of Love and personal relationship with God. This is not a scholarly view, just my own. God as Creator and Father is not something unknowable or distant as the sun, but in the Baha'i view God the Creator is unreachable, unfathomable. I don't really disagree with the Baha'i view that ultimately God is unknowable (in this life); there's just no equivalent place for the experience of God the Father in the Baha'i model. Likewise, Baha'i view Jesus as what He claimed, the Son of God, there is no uniqueness attributed to this particular Manifestation, and indeed the Son as Jesus is replaced by the return of the Christ Spirit as God the Father. I'm not arguing with this, just pointing out what I see as the differences. The personal relationship Baha'i can have with God is only via the Manifestation of God, which actually seems very similar to how many Christians view their relationship with Jesus. What I think is added by the concept of the Trinity is the powerful emphasis on the message that God is Love, and the love between the Three Persons of the Trinity is the source and perfect example of all the love we have and can have for God and each other. In Baha'i we do not get the message of a bride marrying her Bridegroom, that final and complete merging with God for which we yearn in this life, an eternity in perfect love. In the next world, in the Baha'i view, we continue to strive, aided or perhaps handicapped by what we've accomplished or not here in this life.

The Trinity defies human logic, the Trinity is in finality a Mystery. For some this is an obstacle, but I find in it also a truth about the limits of human understanding and an example for meditation that God's ways are not our ways. It's hard to contemplate "no time, no place," just as it is impossible to reconcile 3=1. Baha'i is seemingly more logical and rational. We're used to hierarchies and linear thinking, we don't have to worry about breaching the Unity of God in our mind with the Baha'i model, although I know most Baha'is do grapple with exactly what the station of Baha'u'llah is (do we pray to Him? through Him? Is He God?). Just as with the Christian view of Jesus as fully human and fully divine, the dual station of Baha'u'llah poses a problem for the human intellect.

Better to not worry too much about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and just leave it up to our hearts.

I offer this in the Spirit of greater understanding and I welcome any insights you all might have.

Allah u'Abha Friends, and In His Peace,
lunamoth