Jesus Christ, he will return?

[mee]

. Jesus reassured John, as the apostle next relates. "And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’" (Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: "I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God." When Jesus presents himself by the title "the First and the Last," he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.

Jesus was indeed "the First" human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is "the Last" to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes "the living one . . . living forever and ever." He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called "the living God." (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is "the resurrection and the life." (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: "I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18

[didymus]

Mee, can you tell me what JW's believe and how it is different from more mainstream christianity? Do you believe that Jesus was and is God.

[Faithfulservant]

. Jesus reassured John, as the apostle next relates. "And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’" (Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: "I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God." When Jesus presents himself by the title "the First and the Last," he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection

Its interesting to me how this was reasoned. God is the First and the Last and Jesus is also the First and the Last but Jesus is not God?... Then how would Jesus share the glory with the Father before the world was.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus' resurrection is not such a unique thing..

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Others will be resurrected as well.

Jesus was indeed "the First" human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is "the Last" to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes "the living one . . . living forever and ever." He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called "the living God." (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is "the resurrection and the life." (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: "I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18

John 2:19-22 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

John 10:17-18 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Jesus resurrected Himself.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

The Holy Spirit raised Jesus...

Acts 2:24, 32
Acts 3:15
Acts 4:10
Acts 5:30
Acts 10:40
Acts 13:30
Acts 13:33-34
Acts 13:37
Acts 17:30-31
Romans 4:24
Romans 6:4
Romans 10:9
1 Corinthians 6:14
1 Corinthians 15:15
2 Corinthians 4:14
Galatians 1:1
Ephesians 1:20
Colossians 2:12
1 Thesselonians 1:10
Hebrews 11:19
1 Peter 1:21

God raised Jesus.....

If you believe the inerrancy of the bible.. you would have to conclude that God is the Father the Son the Holy Spirit.. because they all resurrected the body of Christ. So.. for you to say that Jesus' resurrection is unique because it was done by God.. you must not be reading the scripture in its entirety..

[mee]

Originally Posted by didymus

Mee, can you tell me what JW's believe and how it is different from more mainstream christianity? Do you believe that Jesus was and is God.

Christ is Gods son and is inferior to him. (matt3;17)(john 8;42)(john14;28)(john 20;17)(1 (1 corinthians 15; 28)corinthians 11;3)
christ was first of Gods creations (collosians 1;15) (revelation 3; 14)we do not believe the trinity manmade doctrine as it is not a bible teaching

[Dor]

Oh but Mee I must disagree it surely is supported by the Bible if not spoken directly.

[mee]

[quote=Faithfulservant]Its interesting to me how this was reasoned. God is the First and the Last and Jesus is also the First and the Last but Jesus is not God?... Then how would Jesus share the glory with the Father before the world was.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

QUOTE]
The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation," "the beginning of the creation by God." (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14)
because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me(john 6;38)

[Dor]

Ok lets start at the beginning. The word translated "God" some 2,570 times in the Old Testament is Elohim-a plural term. In all but 5 instances, it clearly refers to the one God who is Creator, Sustainer, and Master of everything.

God sometimes used a plural pronoun when speaking of Himself . For example we have Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and after Adam and Eve had ate of the fruit Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
When Moses declared that God is one Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: he used the same word he had employed to describe the "one flesh" relationship of a man and his wife Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

'echâd ekh-awd'
properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

Therefore we are given reason to believe that one can be more than one. This is beyond our ability to fully understand,but that is not reason to reject it, but to try to understand as much as we can of what God has revealed.

Some have attempted to explain the three-in-oneness of God by suggesting that God has three different ways of revealing Himself to us. The explanation of one God in three different roles might carry more weight if it were not for the evidence for plurality within oneness that we have already considered. The New Testament does not reveal these three Persons to us separately, but in a sense of unity. It shows all three in a relationship of oneness and love for one another and for us as well.

The Old Testament makes it clear that the one true God of the Bible is a jealous God. Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. God in the New Testament links his own name to the threefold designation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The New Testament also shows the Father makes our relationship to him dependent on our relationship to the Son, and our relationship to the Son dependent on our relationship to the Holy Spirit. This God certainly shares His glory among three Persons, who in turn offer Their love to all who will accept the love of the Father, Son, and Spirit.

The Father as God: Among people who belief in the authority of the Bible few if any doubt the full deity of the Father. In many different ways, the Father is revealed as the personal God of creation. The Bible reveals God as the Father of the nation of Israel Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee? Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Jesus called God His Father Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. And taught us to pray that way Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. He told us we are to come to the Father in His name Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. He declared that He and His Father(both) would send a divine Helper Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: What is important about the Father's revelation of himself, however is that He made our relationship to him dependent on our relationship with the Son.

continued in next post....

[Dor]

The Son as God: The New Testament writers repeatedly refer to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. But what does this title mean? Jehovah's Witnesses take this expression to mean that He was a son of God, much like angels and other human beings. They believe that Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus Christ is the "only", the unique Son of God Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. God shares His love with angels and mortals. But with Christ the Son, He shares His glory. We have strong evidence that Matthew, Mark and Luke were written before AD 70. And although the Gospel of John was not produced until around AD 90 the evidence strongly shows it belongs to the apostle John, who was actually with Jesus throughtout his earthly ministry.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. He said that to a group of hostile religious leaders and notice he didnt say Before Abraham was, I was born. Abraham was born within the framework of time. Jesus declared that His own existence transcends time. He has always existed. He had no beginning. While this declaration that He never had a beginning is enough to establish Christ's deity, some Bible students see something more in this statement. They claim that Jesus Christ declared Himself to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. While this point can be debated, the very fact that Jesus Christ said He never had a beginning is enough to establish the claim of deity. The second statement in which Christ calls himself God is Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. The religious leaders knew he was claiming deity when he said this and started to stone him Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. He was saying that He and the Father are one in essence. The Jews knew that Jesus had claimed deity for Himself.

The apostles all knew who he was look at Thomas upon seeing him after the resurection Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. The Apostle John who was there that day opens his gospel with Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The expression in verse 1, "And the Word was God," is so clear that almost all Bible students see it as a declaration that Jesus Christ is God. Jehovah's Witnesses, however, do not agree. They argue that the last phrase in John 1:1 should read, "And the word was a god." They point out that the word God does not have the definite article. It does not read, "And the Word was the God." Robertson, Wescott, Morris, and other reputable scholars tell us that John had good reason for omitting the article here. If he had written, "And the Word was the God," he would have denied the distinction between the Father and the Son--an error made by a man named Sabellius and rejected by the church fathers. If John had meant to say that Jesus was a lesser form of deity, he would have used the Greek word theios instead of theos. We find clearer statements in the writings of Paul to the same effect. He declared that we as Christians are "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Notice, it is "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"not "our great God and the Savior Jesus Christ." The apostle Peter used a similar Greek construction when he addressed his readers as "those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 1:1) In Hebrews 1:8,10, we find the writer quoting several Old Testament verses that clearly refer to God and applying them to Jesus Christ. But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever' [a quote from Ps. 45:6] . . . . You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands' [a quotation from Ps. 102:25-27]. The writer of this epistle, thoroughly schooled in the Old Testament Scriptures and therefore a strict monotheist, was not one bit reluctant to declare the absolute deity of Jesus Christ. He identified Jesus Christ as "God" and "LORD."

Even the Old Testament Scriptures declared the deity of the coming Messiah with crystal clarity. One of the remarkable prophecies that does so is Isaiah 9:6. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Holy Spirit as God: Some who claim to be Bible students do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God. In so doing, however, they contradict Jesus Christ. He clearly perceived of the Holy Spirit as a Person. Speaking to the apostles on the evening before His crucifixion, Jesus said: Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Paul spoke of the "love of the Spirit" Rom 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; Paul also told us not to grieve Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Only a personal being can love and be grieved. In addition, the Holy Spirit leads and guides (Rom. 8:14), teaches (John 14:26), and calls and commissions (Acts 20:28).
Peter expressed the diety Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Act 5:4 While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Who is the Holy Spirit?According to the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit is a Person who rightly shares with the Father and the Son the title and the glory of the Most High God.



One God in three Persons! He is the God Christians worship and serve. In this God we have a heavenly Father who loves us with parental love and at great cost sent His one and only Son to die on the cross for our salvation. In this God we have Jesus Christ, a brother who became one of us to take the punishment we deserved, who understands our pain, and who isn't ashamed to call us His brothers and sisters even though we continue to be weak and imperfect. In this God we have the Person of the Holy Spirit as our Helper--a divine Comforter who lives in us to strengthen us and give us victory over sin.

[didymus]

Mee, I agree with that belief. I don't think Jesus is God nor was he God. Jesus repeatedly put God above himself and stated his mission here was for God and from God. This is the mission of all of us.
The gospel of John I take with a grain of salt. I believe this gospel was tampered with more than any. The language of the logos was a concept created by Philo of Alexandria who was a contempory of Jesus. His philosophy was very popular among Greeks and Romans as well as Hellenized Jews. Being that John was written later than any other gospel it would reason to believe that it would coincide even more with the other 3, but it doesn't, it is very different.

Jesus never spoke in terms of being the only begotten so, that whoever believes may heve eternal life in the synoptics. A statement as bold as this would certainly have been a part of his overall message. Why isn't this included in the others? The discrepancy between John The Bap and Jesus is straightened out very nice. Gospel of John has John the Bap giving testimony of Jesus being the "lamb of God" here, in the others he didn't know. Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness is completely removed or should I say not added to the gospel of John. This was a forty day period that all 3 synoptics agree on. 40 days is a long time. In fact, in Gospel of John they are very specific about the time frame after Jesus' baptism, stating on the next day, on the second day and on the third.

[didymus]

Meee, what exactly is the JW view on salvation and eternal life? I know that JW's believe that only 144,000 will be saved, why is that and what determines this? Thanks.

[mee]

Originally Posted by didymus

Meee, what exactly is the JW view on salvation and eternal life? I know that JW's believe that only 144,000 will be saved, why is that and what determines this? Thanks.

the bible speaks of only a little flock of 144,000going to heaven and ruleing with christ, this does not mean that the rest of humans are without any hope , because people who God approves of will have the hope of living forever on the earth ,under Gods heavenly kingdom goverment. plus there is the ressurection hope.

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life(john 3;16)
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ(john 17;3)
And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads(rev 14;1)
"Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom(luke 12;32)
"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd(john 10;3)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

the bible speaks of only a little flock of 144,000going to heaven and ruleing with christ, this does not mean that the rest of humans are without any hope , because people who God approves of will have the hope of living forever on the earth ,under Gods heavenly kingdom goverment. plus there is the ressurection hope.

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life(john 3;16)
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ(john 17;3)
And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads(rev 14;1)
"Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom(luke 12;32)
"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd(john 10;3)

The "little flock" of 144,000 refers specifically to the 144,000 virgin Jewish males, from the 12 tribes of Israel, in Revelation, who were standing for the Lord during the time of the apocolypes. Revelation is absolutely clear who the 144,000 are, why they are and where they come from.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation points out that they were male, Jewish, believers in Jesus, virgin, and were 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

v/r

Q

[truthseeker]

I will admit that I didn't read all 4 pages before I posted. But I did read the first 2 1/2. The Bible is full of symbolism. It has to be read with spiritual eyes. It must be understood in a spiritual manner because we are reading the Word of God and God is a spirit entity. Those who seek to see anything within the Bible in regard to the understanding of how things occur on this earth can read with an intelligent mind, those seeking historical information can read in a literal manner. To read the information in a spiritual manner, you have to rely on the Holy Spirit.

No, Jesus will not be returning in the flesh. The information regarding that is symbolic. Is Jesus already here? Yes, he is here among all of us who believe on him.
I think alot of us are reading and sometimes we see with spiritual eyes and don't realize when we have escaped the Holy Spirit and have continued on reading without It. It's alot of information and tedious work. Will he return just as stated in Revelation? Shoot, I don't know. That's what makes these discussions so interesting.

[mee]

the 144,000 are spiritual jews from all nations they are virgins in they have not commited spiritual adultery by keeping clean in a religious way (galatians 3;28) matt 21; 43
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus
This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

the 144,000 are spiritual jews from all nations they are virgins in they have not commited spiritual adultery by keeping clean in a religious way (galatians 3;28) matt 21; 43
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus
This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits

Not in the original Hebrew and Greek text. And the above verse is being taken out of context from its original thought. That is the danger with quoting scripture. One must take in the entire context of the thought, not just a phrase here and there. Otherwise things could get confusing.

v/r

Q