Jesus and the Bahai Faith

[Dah-veeth]

I like 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation of the concept of Trinity. He uses the explanation to harmonize strict monotheism with the idea of seeing God in Jesus, because Jesus is a Perfect Mirror reflecting the Light of God.

Also, on the topic of Jesus and the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah wrote to Napoleon III:

"Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast to this firm Cord." -Baha'u'llah

...only a small part of the Tablet.

[Dah-veeth]

I forgot to add that Spirit of God is a title of Jesus.

[Thomas]

Hi Ahanu —

Originally Posted by Ahanu

Oh, if it was written by St. Ignatius, then it was rather early. Did he come into contact, or hear about, the worship of the Egyptian triad Isis, Serapis, and the child Horus? This or some other trinities during the time may have accustomed the early church theologians to the idea of a triune God.

The immediate (but not very useful) answer to this question is no — the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is derived solely from Scripture, and in fact solely from the New Testament.

A study of the Doctrine itself will soon show that it is clearly different from the triune polytheisms of the Ancient World, be they the familial triunes such as the Egyptian model, or the hierarchical pantheon of the Greeks.

The Doctrine of the Trinity is a development of and implicit in New Testament Christology, but a discussion of that is probably too far off-topic for this thread.

Rather, let me offer one of the earliest teachings on the subject by Irenaeus, a 2nd century theologian and the 'Father of Theology' — one of the few Fathers who was not a Platonist — but a Scriptural exegete, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of St John — this will demonstrate, I think, how the doctrine is uniquely Christian, and owes nothing to previous triune systems:

"And for this reason the baptism of our regeneration proceeds through these three points: God the Father bestowing on us regeneration through His Son by the Holy Spirit. For as many as carry (in them) the Spirit of God are led to the Word, that is to the Son; and the Son brings them to the Father; and the Father causes them to possess incorruption. Without the Spirit it is not possible to behold the Word of God, nor without the Son can any draw near to the Father for the knowledge of the Father is the Son, and the knowledge of the Son of God is through the Holy Spirit; and, according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Son ministers and dispenses the Spirit to whomsoever the Father wills and as He wills."
Irenause: The Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching para vii.

Thomas

[arthra]

Thomas:

I think Platonism has had a deep influence on the Western religions.

Baha'is don't have "theology" as it is known i think in Christianity... also "theology" probbaly developed over time into maybe creeds of the church...and is still going on .. But we have no "Baha'i theologians".

We have only some statements about "trinity" that you may already be familiar with which are found in the utterances recorded by Abdul-Baha. TH
he Bab made some reference to trinity too as I recall.

Here are some of the references:

ABDUL BAHA: His Holiness Christ said: "The Father is in me." This we must understand through logical and scientific evidences, for if religious principles do not accord with science and reason, they do not inspire the heart with confidence and assurance.

It is said that once John of Chrysostom was walking along the seashore thinking over the question of the trinity and trying to reconcile it with finite reason; his attention was attracted to a boy sitting on the shore putting water into a cup. Approaching him, he said, "My child, what art thou doing?" "I am trying to put the sea into this cup," was the answer. "How foolish art thou," said John, "in trying to do the impossible." The child replied, "Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity."

Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter. What is the meaning of the father and the son?

This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like 153 unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."
The sun in the sky and the sun in the mirror are one, are they not? - and yet we see there are apparently two suns

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 152)

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. 115
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113)


there are necessarily three things, the Giver of the Grace, the Grace, and the Recipient of the Grace: the Source of the Effulgence, the Effulgence, and the Recipient of the Effulgence; the Illuminator, the Illumination, and the Illuminated.

(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 448)

and this is from the Writings of the Bab:

Verily, Christ is Our Word which We communicated unto Mary; 4 and let no one say what the Christians term 61 as ‘the third of three’, 5 inasmuch as it would amount to slandering the Remembrance Who, as decreed in the Mother Book, is invested with supreme authority. Indeed God is but one God, and far be it from His glory that there should be aught else besides Him. All those who shall attain unto Him on the Day of Resurrection are but His servants, and God is, of a truth, a sufficient Protector. Verily I am none other but the servant of God and His Word, and none but the first one to bow down in supplication before God, the Most Exalted; and indeed God witnesseth all things. Chapter LXI.

[Ahanu]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Ahanu —


The immediate (but not very useful) answer to this question is no — the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is derived solely from Scripture, and in fact solely from the New Testament.

A study of the Doctrine itself will soon show that it is clearly different from the triune polytheisms of the Ancient World, be they the familial triunes such as the Egyptian model, or the hierarchical pantheon of the Greeks.

The Doctrine of the Trinity is a development of and implicit in New Testament Christology, but a discussion of that is probably too far off-topic for this thread.

Rather, let me offer one of the earliest teachings on the subject by Irenaeus, a 2nd century theologian and the 'Father of Theology' — one of the few Fathers who was not a Platonist — but a Scriptural exegete, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of St John — this will demonstrate, I think, how the doctrine is uniquely Christian, and owes nothing to previous triune systems:

"And for this reason the baptism of our regeneration proceeds through these three points: God the Father bestowing on us regeneration through His Son by the Holy Spirit. For as many as carry (in them) the Spirit of God are led to the Word, that is to the Son; and the Son brings them to the Father; and the Father causes them to possess incorruption. Without the Spirit it is not possible to behold the Word of God, nor without the Son can any draw near to the Father for the knowledge of the Father is the Son, and the knowledge of the Son of God is through the Holy Spirit; and, according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Son ministers and dispenses the Spirit to whomsoever the Father wills and as He wills."
Irenause: The Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching para vii.

Thomas

Thomas, this is interesting because Irenaeus's teaching is not original.

. . .nor without the Son can any draw near to the Father for the knowledge of the Father is the Son

Yes, this quote reminds me of Philipians 2:6, however, it still reminds me of Egyptian beliefs.

Akhnaton (Pharaoh of Egypt in 1375 B.C.) said, "Thou art in my heart; none other knows Thee, save thy son Akhnaton; Thou hast initiated him into thy wisdom and into thy power."

Pagan and Christian Creeds: XV. The Ancient Mysteries

To me, of what I see on the surface of the doctrine of the trinty, the idea evolved over time. The mystery religions prepared the way for the trinity we now know in Christianity. Irenaeus unconsciously copied and developed them. Thoughts?

[Dah-veeth]

I started reading something called the Common Catechism (a Protestant and Catholic book) one time, and it said, from what I remember of it, that the concept of Trinity came as a defense because the Jews said there is only one God and the Christians were calling Jesus God. The Christians knew monotheism to be correct and had to explain just how Jesus was God and that God was only one God. I think 'Abdu'l-Baha does an excellent job of it.

And here is something from the Book of Ceritude:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: 'I am God!' He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world." -Baha'u'llah

[Thomas]

Hi Arthra —

Originally Posted by arthra

I think Platonism has had a deep influence on the Western religions.

Indeed it has. The Christian heritage is twofold: The Revelation in Jesus Christ, and the mature reflection upon its content in the Greek Philosophical tradition.

Originally Posted by arthra

Baha'is don't have "theology" as it is known i think in Christianity... also "theology" probbaly developed over time into maybe creeds of the church...and is still going on .. But we have no "Baha'i theologians".

Interesting. Does it demand blind faith then? The definition of theology in the Christian Tradition is 'faith seeking understanding'.

Originally Posted by arthra

We have only some statements about "trinity" that you may already be familiar with which are found in the utterances recorded by Abdul-Baha. TH he Bab made some reference to trinity too as I recall.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm afraid not.

Originally Posted by arthra

ABDUL BAHA: His Holiness Christ said: "The Father is in me." This we must understand through logical and scientific evidences, for if religious principles do not accord with science and reason, they do not inspire the heart with confidence and assurance.

We would dispute this on a number of points. The data of revelation is not accessible to reason nor logic, else man would have arrived at it through philosophic inquiry. Nor can it be proved through scientific inquiry, which is dependent on empirical measure. Nor can the content of religion be judged by science and reason, for the same reason ... man would have to be omniscient to judge.

We do believe however, that the data of revelation, and our doctrines, must be reasonable ... but that's theology. Faith and Reason are the two wings upon which man ascends to the Divine, as we say, but never forget that the heart of the matter is a Mystery beyond all understanding. Man is not omniscient.

Originally Posted by arthra

It is said that once John of Chrysostom ...

Actually that story is of St. Augustine of Hippo. But the point remains that the Trinity is a Mystery, and beyond reason and science ... St Augustine was one of the first to point out that however we describe it, and whatever analogy we use, it is only an analogy, it is not what the Trinity is.

Originally Posted by arthra

Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter.

Without access to tradition, I would argue we have lost all touch with reality, certainly with the culture and the context. Put tradition on one side, and we can determine a thing to be anything we fancy. Philosophy demands a synchronic and a diachronic investigation (what is said, and the cultural context in which it is said) ... without this, really one is lost. Truth of history is dependent upon a knowledge of culture and context. The erroneous assumptions of what the past tells us is down to this abandonment of tradition.

If I put tradition aside, I could see the Baha'i faith as someone jumping on the Moslem bandwagon ... taking tradition into account, I see it as a continuation of the Moslem Tradition, placing prophecy at the apex of Revelation.

... This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical.

Definitely not what traditional Christianity believes.

Originally Posted by arthra

The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror ...

If Jesus claimed to be a prophet, this would be true, but he did not, and the error here is in assuming that is what He is. This is why I see bahai's as essentially Moslem-based.

For us, such a suggestion is a form of Docetism, a view which the Gospel of St John, for one, expressly refutes. It also affirms a radical duality, that the Person of Jesus is simply a reflection of the Divine, and that the human person is of little or no consequence, and disposable. This renders the Passion and Jesus' expiatory sacrifice void and meaningless.

Originally Posted by arthra

there are necessarily three things, the Giver of the Grace, the Grace, and the Recipient of the Grace: the Source of the Effulgence, the Effulgence, and the Recipient of the Effulgence; the Illuminator, the Illumination, and the Illuminated.

Such analogies have been used throughout Christendom for centuries. My favourite is the Lover, the Loved, and the Love.

(But is there not a contradiction here? Above the idea is of one thing, reflected in other things ... the only meaning or value of the mirror is what it reflects ... here one's talking of three things of equal importance, as the capitalisation implies, not mirrors, but actualities?)

Thomas

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Ahanu

Thomas, this is interesting because Irenaeus's teaching is not original ...
... however, it still reminds me of Egyptian beliefs ...
Irenaeus unconsciously copied and developed them. Thoughts?

Well all gropings toards truth are gropings towards God, so in the religions of Antiquity I can see vestiges and shadows of the truth, and these continue superficially in correspondences, only when you go in deep do you see the difference.

That's what made Christianity unique, and so shocking.

Akhnaton (Pharaoh of Egypt in 1375 B.C.) said, "Thou art in my heart; none other knows Thee, save thy son Akhnaton; Thou hast initiated him into thy wisdom and into thy power."

Thou, my and him are three distinct individuals, with no relation other than an initiatic bond, the term 'into' above is crucial ... this is not what the Trinity is about:

The Father is the Son and is the Holy Spirit;
The Son is the Father and is the Holy Spirit;
The Holy Spirit is the Father and is the Son.

The three are one, co-equal and co-eternal, the Son and the Spirit are distinct by the mode of procession:
"And God (Father) said (Son), let there be light (Spirit)"

Until then, Word and Light was God, in God and with God, without distinction.
Son and Spirit are distinct, but the same, as the Father ... the difference is by order of relation.

St. Augustine offered the analogy of a man, an idea, and an action ... but in man the idea is of the man but not the man, the action is of the man and the idea, but is not the man nor the idea ... in the Trinity, man, idea and action or simultaneous, and each is wholly the other, so the man is the idea is the action, the idea is the man and the action, the action is the man and the idea...

... see it now?

The triunes of Antiquity come nowhere near this, being more concerned (usually) with fertility, reproduction and the agrarian cycle.

Thomas

[arthra]

Maybe Thomas this has been helpful to you to understand the Baha'i views on the subject.

We would stipulate that the Baha'i view and the traditional Christian views are different. What would be unfortunate i think is to launch into some sort of argumentation here...

The statement about trinity above that I cited are the Baha'i views. Your base is clearly more from Christian theology.

To say that Baha'is are essentially "Muslim based" is in a sense historicallly acurate just as we could probably say teat Christianity was based in Judaism at some point... but later we would say with the emergence of Christian church would be a divergence say in that Judaisers were more or less at odds with some of those who were Hellenized and so on. But doctrinally and as you note theologically, Christianity would have diverged from Judaism.

In our case, that is from the standpoint of the Baha'i Faith we are not simply "Muslim based" and let me give a few examples of that:

The ordinances of the Baha'i Faith are distinct from Islam... We have our own obligatory prayers , centers of pilgriamge, calendar and fasting and so on.

The concept of the Manifestation of God is uniquely Baha'i ...but has somethings in common with from past dispensations... A Manifestation has innate knowledge and reflects God perfectly. Here is where the anology of the pure Mirror reflecting the attributes of God is found. So a Manifestation is not simply "human" as other men, but like the Christian view that Jesus is both human and Divine.

Baha'is acknowledge that the Gospel of Christ, His teachings were not corrupted or lost as is most often the view among Muslims..

What we have in common with the early Christians is recognizing that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the fulfillment of the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad is propably similar to the position of the early Christians who saw Christ the Messiah as the fulfillment of Judaism.

- Art

[arthra]

One additional thing I'd like to mention for clarification Thomas when quoting my post above we need to be clear that the statements I quoted are not my own but are from talks reported by Abdul-Baha and from the Writings of the Bab..



Originally Posted by arthra
Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter.

Originally Posted by arthra
The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror ...

Originally Posted by arthra
It is said that once John of Chrysostom ...

[Thomas]

Hi Arthra —

Originally Posted by arthra

Maybe Thomas this has been helpful to you to understand the Baha'i views on the subject.

Yes it has. Thank you.

Originally Posted by arthra

We would stipulate that the Baha'i view and the traditional Christian views are different. What would be unfortunate i think is to launch into some sort of argumentation here...

Absolutely ... each to his or her own ... what is often misconstrued on CR is that I am not attacking what other people believe, rather I aim to correct erroneous beliefs they hold about traditional Christianity.

I stipulate 'traditional' in the sense of Christianity as it was understood up until the Reformation in the 16th century, at which point a conflict broke out between emerging nationalist ideals and the traditional order.

After the Enlightenment (18thc), the situation became even more personalist, and today, the term Christian is just about meaningless, in that people determine it to mean anything they choose it to mean.

Originally Posted by arthra

The statement about trinity above that I cited are the Baha'i views. Your base is clearly more from Christian theology.

Yes. I would argue that anyone can talk about triunes in general, but if you're talking The Trinity, then you have to understand it as we do ... anything else is not The Trinity, but a triune ... if that makes sense ... to suggest anything else is to imply that Christians got it wrong.

Originally Posted by arthra

... but later we would say with the emergence of Christian church would be a divergence say in that Judaisers were more or less at odds with some of those who were Hellenized and so on.

The divergence occurred (most painfully) before the influence of Hellenism. First generation Christians were predominantly Jewish converts, but were forbidden from entering the synagogue around 70-80AD.

It wasn't Hellenic ideas that upset the Jews, it was the Christian interpretation of Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, the Messiah and the Son of God. The idea that Jesus could forgive sin was an outrage.

Pax tecum,

Thomas

[Dah-veeth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

It wasn't Hellenic ideas that upset the Jews, it was the Christian interpretation of Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, the Messiah and the Son of God. The idea that Jesus could forgive sin was an outrage.

Pax tecum,

Thomas

Yes, that was a factor, wasn't it?

'It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: "Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee." Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins."[Cf. Luke 5:18-26.] This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God's chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.' -Baha'u'llah

[Dah-veeth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

It wasn't Hellenic ideas that upset the Jews, it was the Christian interpretation of Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, the Messiah and the Son of God. The idea that Jesus could forgive sin was an outrage.

Pax tecum,

Thomas

Yes, that was a factor, wasn't it?

'It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: "Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee." Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins."[Cf. Luke 5:18-26.] This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God's chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.' -Baha'u'llah

[Ahanu]

... see it now?

Yes, I see that it is the Christian version of the seal of the prophets in the sense that Jesus was the first and last Word of God to humanity, rendering future revelation unnecessary. With this doctrine, how is it possible that the vast majority of Christians believe that Christ will come again? It is set up in a way that each one will be rejected and declared an imposter. By the way, thanks for the correction on the old Egyptian belief and Christian belief connection.

[arthra]

One of the best statements i've read about the Baha'i Faith views and Christianity can be found in an essay by Robert Stockman at

Jesus Christ in the Baha'i Writings

- Art