Israel vs Hamas escalates

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I see two extremes presented, both without faith, both self-serving, both self-righteous, both the cause of many injustices, both blind to people, both the cause of war, both having nothing really to do with Israel or Lebanon, Hezbollah, Hamas, or any religion... save for the fact that over a century the USA governments and NGO's gave well over $100 billion to Israel in cash and weapons. So either way: give nothing or throw money blindly. Either watch the show or add more war to it. Either way, I see the two extremes are the same thing, and they are sadly placed on this thread, many threads and media around the world. America thy name is self-righteous and there is nothing good whatsoever from that.

There's an old joke that goes: What is the difference between a rich lawyer and poor lawyer? The answer: . . .

. . . Another lawyer.

Fear, hatred and vengeance need reaction to exist. It achieves its greatest effect when it stimulates an equivalent response. It is a vicious circle and those who seek to be enriched (both politically and economically) by wars of fear and hatred know the best thing to do is make your enemy respond in kind.

It takes a truly wise leader to understand that retribution is exactly what your enemy wants. Jesus understood it. Our leadership doesn't. Or perhaps more to the point, our leadership is the mirror image of our enemy. They increasingly look the same, but with the sides reversed. And so they desire more retribution in response to our retribution for their retribution, with nobody subjectively believing they ever did anything unjust* . . . and the beat of the drums of war goes on.



*"Just War Theory" is perhaps the most malleable truth I've ever come across.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I see two extremes presented, both without faith, both self-serving, both self-righteous, both the cause of many injustices, both blind to people, both the cause of war, both having nothing really to do with Israel or Lebanon, Hezbollah, Hamas, or any religion... save for the fact that over a century the USA governments and NGO's gave well over $100 billion to Israel in cash and weapons. So either way: give nothing or throw money blindly. Either watch the show or add more war to it. Either way, I see the two extremes are the same thing, and they are sadly placed on this thread, many threads and media around the world. America thy name is self-righteous and there is nothing good whatsoever from that.

Considering that Israel has existed recently for only 58 years...I find your findings "suspect". Considering the declarations by Hammas and Hezbolah and Iran, and Syria to "destroy" Israel (drive them into the sea), I find your opinion on the issue of Israel to be, "biased".

America has done more for this world in its two hundred 230 year existence than you realize. Israel has done more for this world in 58 years of existence than you ever dreamed.

It would be interesting to see what would happen, if all of a sudden, America no longer existed...would the world be a better place?, or a better place for all, or for certain people, who have their own ideas on life here?

Do you REALLY think, the Chinese would put up with the Middle East insurgency? Do you really think China would give a damn what Iran, Saudi Arabia thought? Do you really think they would have "rules of engagement", designed to show mercy and use minimum force to stop an uprising?

There are 275,000,000 Arabs world wide. There are over 1,000,000,000 Chinese...and they are going to need more oil, soon. I have to laugh at this exercise in philosophy. It is irrelevent.

Arab insurgents are digging a mass grave for themselves and, their "victims".

It isn't the US that will be the end of the Middle East, nor Britian, nor any country from the "West"...look east, because that is where the ill wind is blowing from...and they won't stop at a village gate.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

In anticipation of those who want to know just exactly what "Israel" has done for the world:

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree

is about 18-20feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli

date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be

harvested from the ground or a short ladder.



Israel,the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's

population, can lay claim to the following:



The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli

branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.



Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by

Microsoft-Israel.



The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.



Both the Pent ium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely

designed, developed and produced in Israel.



The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.



Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.



Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in

Israel.



The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by

four young Israelis.



Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S, Russia

and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air

force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of

F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.



Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors

combined.



Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.





According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most

impenetrable flight securi ty. US officials now look to Israel for advice on

how to handle airborne security threats.



Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to it's population in the

world.



Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a

large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest per

capita rates of patents filed.



In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup

companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of

startup companies, more than any other country in the world, except the U.S.

(3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).



With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the

highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the

Silicon Valley, U. S.



Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the

U. S..



Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of

NASDAQ listed companies.



Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.



The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.



On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.



Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking

third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and

12 per cent hold advanced degrees..



Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.



In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews

(Operation Solomon) at risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel .



When Golda Meir was elected PrimeMinister of Israel in 1969, she became the

world's second elected female leader in modern times.



When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed by Osama bin Ladan in

1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three

victims from the rubble.



Israel has the third hi ghest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest

rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.



Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation

on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and

economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union)



Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an

international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."



Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.



Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a

net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was

achieved in an area considered mainly desert.



Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.



Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,

no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.



An Israeli company develo ped a computerized system for ensuring proper

administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical

treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment

mistakes.



Israel's Givun-Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small

it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,

cancer and digestive disorders.



Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart

pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with

heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors

diagnose heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of

sensors.



Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the

workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in

Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed

in technical professions. Israel places first in this cate gory as well.



A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a

high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes

acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or

tissue.



An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale

solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern

California's Mojave desert.



All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that

seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to

spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.



Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the

world.



AND THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR IN ENGLAND SAYS " ISRAEL IS NOTHING BUT A SH*TTY

LITTLE COUNTRY"

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It would be interesting to see what would happen, if all of a sudden, America no longer existed...

We're already seeing it.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

We're already seeing it.

hmmm, wouldn't bet a paycheck on that...

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

hmmm, wouldn't bet a paycheck on that...

I get the distinct impression that you and I have very, very different ideas of what "America" is. Perhaps we are both right.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

I get the distinct impression that you and I have very, very different ideas of what "America" is. Perhaps we are both right.

Considering there are two sides to every coin, I agree.

[Friend]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In anticipation of those who want to know just exactly what "Israel" has done for the world:

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree

is about 18-20feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli

date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be

harvested from the ground or a short ladder.



Israel,the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's

population, can lay claim to the following:



The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli

branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.



Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by

Microsoft-Israel.



The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.



Both the Pent ium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely

designed, developed and produced in Israel.



The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.



Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.



Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in

Israel.



The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by

four young Israelis.



Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S, Russia

and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air

force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of

F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.



Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors

combined.



Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.





According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most

impenetrable flight securi ty. US officials now look to Israel for advice on

how to handle airborne security threats.



Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to it's population in the

world.



Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a

large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest per

capita rates of patents filed.



In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup

companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of

startup companies, more than any other country in the world, except the U.S.

(3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).



With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the

highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the

Silicon Valley, U. S.



Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the

U. S..



Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of

NASDAQ listed companies.



Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.



The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.



On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.



Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking

third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and

12 per cent hold advanced degrees..



Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.



In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews

(Operation Solomon) at risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel .



When Golda Meir was elected PrimeMinister of Israel in 1969, she became the

world's second elected female leader in modern times.



When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed by Osama bin Ladan in

1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three

victims from the rubble.



Israel has the third hi ghest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest

rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.



Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation

on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and

economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union)



Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an

international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."



Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.



Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a

net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was

achieved in an area considered mainly desert.



Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.



Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,

no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.



An Israeli company develo ped a computerized system for ensuring proper

administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical

treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment

mistakes.



Israel's Givun-Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small

it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,

cancer and digestive disorders.



Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart

pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with

heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors

diagnose heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of

sensors.



Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the

workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in

Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed

in technical professions. Israel places first in this cate gory as well.



A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a

high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes

acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or

tissue.



An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale

solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern

California's Mojave desert.



All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that

seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to

spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.



Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the

world.



AND THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR IN ENGLAND SAYS " ISRAEL IS NOTHING BUT A SH*TTY

LITTLE COUNTRY"

Who told you that???

Is it authenticator informations or you made cut and paste??
I think these information was exaggerative and unprecised>


Thanks

[bananabrain]

friend,

is it that you can't accept it, or that you think it must be lies?

and if it is true, why can't you accept it?

and what's the point of quoting the entire post?

personally, i don't see what any of this has to do with the situation in lebanon.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Abogado del Diablo]

Uh oh (X2) . . .

[I, Brian]

More than 1100 death later, and the UN still hasn't agreed any action.

Agreed on the quotes, too - all it shows is the extensive bankrolling of Israel by the USA. I figure more than one Arab would cite that as "proof" of undue Jewish influence in the USA.

Another interesting read at the Beeb:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4780847.stm

[Abogado del Diablo]

Interesting article, Brian, thanks.

One thing that has puzzled me is the Israeli position that their invasion is justified becaue Hezzobolah and Shi'ia extremists want Israel destroyed. While this is a true statement about the rhetoric of militant, fundamentalist Islam, there's a lesson to be learned in this, that I don't think we are learning:

People of Islam can choose not to be militant Jew haters.

And recently many, many more them were starting to make the right choice. That rise of "moderate" Islam was a threat to the power structure of the Fundamentalists, so what they needed was to invoke extreme violence against Muslims to pull the moral plug on the rise of liberalism within their religion. How do you do that? You know your enemy better than they know themselves. First, the weak link: the United States. It has acted as a check on full-scale Israeli retribution for decades because of the U.S.'s dedication to measured military diplomacy and ostensible desire to promote stability and human rights in international relations (and yes, it often wasn't much more than rhetoric in the U.S., too, as Vietnam, Guatemala, etc. show , but that's another discussion).

So the first thing was to get the U.S. off its high horse. Mission accomplished - ironically, not when the towers fell (which was a horrible tragedy), but when Congress passed the Iraq war resolution a year and a half later. Now pre-emptive war was on the table and taking war to the terrorists (and "those who support them") was a valid diplomatic option. And remember, Israeli agression against Muslim civilians is what the Islamic militants want. And the reason they want it is because they understand something we continually refuse to learn: the prizes in these wars are the "hearts and minds" of real people. And when we act with measured diplomacy and protection of human rights and advancement of human dignity, the financial success of our democratic, capitalist system will ultimately allow us to win those hearts and minds because we can meet the needs of real people better.

Once the U.S. was in no position to say anything about it, then it was simply a matter of goading Israel into its own quest for retribution on the same diplomatic theories the U.S. had made acceptable. And when Israel started invading Lebanon, the Islamic fundamentalists began to win what the wanted to win in the first place - with the result that Israel has moved itself further away from being a safe and secure state by its actions.

This isn't about moral justifications. I agree that what Hezzbollah did and continues to do is reprehensible. It is about prudent diplomacy, what the Jews of Israel really want, and how they can go about actually achieving it.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

Best regards to all.

[Friend]

This war in lepanon is a very important step in the American plan to built the new middle east that they were prepared in the past...Israeel is american arm there in the middle east.

I, Brian thanks a lot for this interesting thread

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

There's an old joke that goes: What is the difference between a rich lawyer and poor lawyer? The answer: . . .

. . . Another lawyer.

Fear, hatred and vengeance need reaction to exist. It achieves its greatest effect when it stimulates an equivalent response. It is a vicious circle and those who seek to be enriched (both politically and economically) by wars of fear and hatred know the best thing to do is make your enemy respond in kind.

It takes a truly wise leader to understand that retribution is exactly what your enemy wants. Jesus understood it. Our leadership doesn't. Or perhaps more to the point, our leadership is the mirror image of our enemy. They increasingly look the same, but with the sides reversed. And so they desire more retribution in response to our retribution for their retribution, with nobody subjectively believing they ever did anything unjust* . . . and the beat of the drums of war goes on.



*"Just War Theory" is perhaps the most malleable truth I've ever come across.

The two extremes I described are both common Americans. Your response is verbage from one of them... that it is the fault of fear, hatred, and vengeance in a cycle of war. Without argument, but the solution this extreme presents is apathy, division and another cycle of ignorance. Both positions are self-righteous and self-serving. They are the same animal. I don't generalize Americans lightly... I am an American, born and raised at least four generations.

Perhaps a more fruitful method is to show that Americans need to be more responsible for their actions and ignorance by demanding and taking more power internally. The way America is making foreign policy and trade decisions is a disgrace to itself and its alledged values... and it is going down the tubers as a result of it. It is a pathetic joke, an oppressive lasting regime makes more conscious decisions. It needs to go the other direction... I maintain there needs to be a routine vote held nationally once a month on foreign policy and trade. Repeat at the state and city levels for more local decisions. If there is ANY foreign agreement or decision, the people have to sign off on it. If there is a decision to support or not support a war, the people have to sign off on it. Any major bills to become law, the people have to sign off on it. If America is going to speak at the UN, the American people need to sign off on the speech. People need to be responsible by being the ones making the final decisions. In the long run it causes people to be better educated and more responsible for their actions. Government is supposed to be working for the people, not dictating to it and the world.

The legislative branch can do full-time work on debating the issues and formulating bills... but instead of passing a president's desk it needs to pass the desk of every American. Many laws should only be made with the vote of the people. What has changed the situation today from 200 years ago is technology, population, and economic power. The method of governing needs to be changed as a result. This business of pinning hopes and dreams on the line-item veto of one man is a sick pathetic joke. The business of pinning decisions and responsibility on one commander-in-chief is a sick, pathetic joke that defies all religions... every single one of them. This business of pinning the world's opinions on the lips and verbage of a president is a sick, pathetic joke. America was a step away from Kings and emperors... today I think it needs to take a step away from presidential regimes if it wants to survive.

Q, I find your defense of Israel and the USA over their technology and economic power is pathetic. Absolutely disgusting and disgraceful.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

The two extremes I described are both common Americans. Your response is verbage from one of them... that it is the fault of fear, hatred, and vengeance in a cycle of war. Without argument, but the solution this extreme presents is apathy, division and another cycle of ignorance.

WOW! Lots of assumptions there, cyberpi. Of what am I ignorant? Please enlighten me.

As far as the solution I would propose, you are completely, unequivocally, 100% wrong! The solution I would propose is for everybody (Americans or not) to study history, develop their critical thinking skills, question and decide the facts for themselves and what those facts mean, rather than lazily rely on pundits to tell them what to think, and take back their surrendered soverignty from those who wish to further their own power and greed with it. Which doesn't sound all that different from what you are proposing (though your idea of having a referendum on every policy decision in a nation of 200,000,000 adults is not very realistic).

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Perhaps a more fruitful method is to show that Americans need to be more responsible for their actions and ignorance by demanding and taking more power internally. The way America is making foreign policy and trade decisions is a disgrace to itself and its alledged values... and it is going down the tubers as a result of it. It is a pathetic joke, an oppressive lasting regime makes more conscious decisions.

You are preaching to the choir. Maybe we could work together so that non-Americans could also do this?

Originally Posted by cyberpi

It needs to go the other direction... I maintain there needs to be a routine vote held nationally once a month on foreign policy and trade. Repeat at the state and city levels for more local decisions. If there is ANY foreign agreement or decision, the people have to sign off on it. If there is a decision to support or not support a war, the people have to sign off on it. Any major bills to become law, the people have to sign off on it. If America is going to speak at the UN, the American people need to sign off on the speech. People need to be responsible by being the ones making the final decisions. In the long run it causes people to be better educated and more responsible for their actions. Government is supposed to be working for the people, not dictating to it and the world.

So you are proposing the elimination of representative government? I can see the appeal of that. However, while that might work on a small scale (a family, a tribe or a small village), when the "tribe" grows into the millions (or the hundreds of millions!) it just isn't possible.