Israel vs Hamas escalates

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

These comments from the Israeli military are pretty disgusting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5219360.stm



With these sorts of views, I'm impressed Israel feels so hard done by when world opinion turns against it.

On another note, great reporter John Simpson answers questions fielded to him on the situation here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/5216708.stm

His conclusion - all the Israeli action is going to achieve is increased standing of Iran in the region, and an increased sympathy for Islamist militancy in the Muslim population of the world.

The "Game" is afoot...

Saudis Publicly
Warn US & Israel
7-26-6
Saudi Press Agency, 07/25/06
FOLLOWING IS THE STATEMENT ISSUED
TODAY BY THE ROYAL COURT:
It was just two days ago on Sunday that the Saudis all but demanded an emergency meeting with the American President. They came to the White House in force -- the Foreign Minister, the Ambassador to the U.S. (formerly in charge of National Security in The Kingdom), and the old American Ambassador, Prince Bandar bin Sultan (now in charge of National Security in The Kingdom). They left unhappy. They are even more unhappy after Condolezza Rice's failed visit to Beirut and stealth visit to Ramallah as Palestinian protestors demanded a 'Day of Rage' against the Americans and boycotting of Rice. The following extraordinarily unusual statement and warning has just come from Riyadh in the name of the Saudi 'Royal Court', the highest authority in The Kingdom:
====================
JEDDAH, JULY 25, SPA -- FOLLOWING IS THE STATEMENT ISSUED TODAY BY THE ROYAL COURT:
" THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA HAS UNDERSTAKEN THE ROLE REQUIRED OF IT BY ITS RELIGIOUS AND NATIONAL DUTY WITH REGARD TO THE SITUATION IN THE REGION AND REPERCUSSIONS OF EVENTS IN LEBANON AND THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES. IN THIS REGARD, IT HAS CAUTIONED, WARNED AND EXTENDED ADVICE. FURTHERMORE, IT HAS STRIVEN FROM THE FIRST MOMENT TO STOP THE AGRRESSION, MOVING ON MORE THAN ONE FRONT AND BY MORE THAN ONE MEANS, TO PERSUADE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO FORCE ISRAEL TO AGREE TO A CEASEFIRE.
MEANWHILE, THE KINGDOM HAS DISPATCHED HRH THE FOREIGN MINISTER AND HRH THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL TO MEET H.E. THE U.S. PRESIDENT IN WASHINGTON AND INFORM HIM OF ITS VIEWS ON THE GRAVE AND UNPREDICTABLE CONSEQUENCES OF THE UNREMITTING ISRAELI AGGRESSION IF MATTERS WENT BEYOND CONTROL. THE KINGDOM HAS ALSO ASKED PERSONAL ENVOYS TO VISIT THE CAPITALS OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL'S PERMANENT MEMBER STATES TO CONVEY THE SAME MESSAGE.
THE ARABS HAVE PROCLAIMED PEACE AS A STRATEGIC OPTION FOR THE ARAB NATION. THEY PRESENTED A JUST AND DISTINCT PLAN FOR REGAINING THE OCCUPIED ARAB TERRITORIES IN EXCHANGE FOR PEACE. THEY REFUSED TO RESPOND TO PROVOCATIONS AND IGNORED ANTI-PEACE EXTREMIST CALLS. IT SHOULD BE STATED THAT PATIENCE COULD NOT LAST FOREVER. IF THE ISRAELI MILITARY BRUTALITY PERSISTED WITH KILLINGS AND DESTRUCTION NO ONE COULD PREDICT THE CONSEQUENCES AND THEN REGRETS WILL BE IN VAIN.
THEREFORE, THE KINGDOM ADDRESSES AN APPEAL AND A WARNING TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IN ITS ENTIRETY, AS REPRESENTED BY THE U.N. AND IN PARTICULAR THE U.S.
THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA CALLS ON ALL TO ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH HONEST, CONSCIOUS AND INTERNATIONAL MORAL AND HUMANITARIAN LAWS. IT ALSO WARNS ALL THAT IF THE PEACE OPTION IS REJECTED DUE TO THE ISRAELI ARROGANCE THEN ONLY THE WAR OPTION REMAINS AND NO ONE KNOWS THE REPERCUSSIONS BEFALLING THE REGION, INCLUDING WARS AND CONFLICT THAT WILL SPARE NO ONE INCLUDING THOSE WHOSE MILITARY POWER IS NOW TEMPTING THEM TO PLAY WITH FIRE.
--MORE 1625 Local Time 1325 GMT

[Quahom1]

As I stated before, when Israel believes there is no way out, they will choose a options no one dared think they would do in today's world. Their intent is to survive at all costs...

I believe people around the world better consider Israel's perception of the situation at hand, quite seriously. It doesn't matter if it is socially acceptable or not. Life to these folk is not a morality question or exercise in diplomacy. It is an instinct (we all have).

And I can tell you with the utmost assuredness, the US will not abandon Israel, if push comes to shove, right, wrong or indifferent.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

I think you a right Q. The US may try to act the diplomat but I can't imagine it ever abandoning Israel, esp now that we've pushed the first domino over in Iraq.

luna

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think you a right Q. The US may try to act the diplomat but I can't imagine it ever abandoning Israel, esp now that we've pushed the first domino over in Iraq.

luna

No, I submit that the first "domino" in recent history that Uncle Sam knocked over was in Afghanistan...

The US has no love loss for Syria or Iran. That should be a clear ALARM bell going off in everyone's ears. Hamas and Hezbolah are "dogs" of "Masters" with grander ideals, one of which is the elimination of the State of Israel. The US is not going to "allow" that to happen. For those that think America is militarily stretched too thin...guess again...

Look historically at the relationship between Israel and the United States of America. Since 1947/8 that bond has not been broken, despite disputes, anger flares, difference of opinions. And (lol), Israel has no oil, nor anything else of significant material value to the United States...but that doesn't matter...

Consequently Hamas and Hezbolah are really, cannon fodder...but now Saudi Arabia has officially stepped into the game.

Israel has no intention of listening to anyone at this point. In fact, that mindset is "with or without help" we will not be intimidated nor destroyed, nor will we give in to anyone...

"The li'l engine that could" (Israel), is not yet bringing boilers to full steam pressure.

I strongly suggest diplomacy believers get a grip on reality and deal with Israel and the hostiles around that nation as equals and in earnest, post haste...or there is going to be one hell of a private little war, that will soon enough become very public, to the world at large.

Politics have little influence in the area right now.

my "thoughts"

v/r

Q

[cyberpi]

Someone should seriously educate themselves on the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

wil,
the state of israel is not run according to jewish law. it is run according to israeli law which is an entirely different, western type of law, based on british, ottoman and french law with a supreme court and so on. so the idea of an "eye for an eye" (besides being utterly mistaken as to how it is applied in practice in jewish law) is not applicable here.

So Judaism, Christianity, and Islam don't apply? Are you sure? Was there no wisdom behind the eye for eye? Do people here seriously think that Israel has written a law that enables them to justly attack Lebanon? Tell me, did Lebanon democratically agree to this law that allows them to be attacked? Because if they didn't, then the law is void. I expect others will now write their own laws to attack Israel full scale in undue proportion. Since that is what Israel does, that will now be justice.

Best course of action: Withdraw, cease-fire, swallow the pride, apologize, PAY for damages, and learn new ways of struggling with the threats.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Someone should seriously educate themselves on the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah.


So Judaism, Christianity, and Islam don't apply? Are you sure? Was there no wisdom behind the eye for eye? Do people here seriously think that Israel has written a law that enables them to justly attack Lebanon? Tell me, did Lebanon democratically agree to this law that allows them to be attacked? Because if they didn't, then the law is void. I expect others will now write their own laws to attack Israel full scale in undue proportion. Since that is what Israel does, that will now be justice.

Best course of action: Withdraw, cease-fire, swallow the pride, apologize, PAY for damages, and learn new ways of struggling with the threats.

Lebanon has allowed a "nation" within its nation. Hezbolah does not answer to Lebanon. The country has a disease within its body (that is affecting other bodies)...that must be erradicated. Or do you think the disease should take over Lebanon, and thus become the new Lebanon? See, then they'd have to become a government, subject to the laws of the world (international body politic). Somehow I doubt that is the intent, or desire...

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, I submit that the first "domino" in recent history that Uncle Sam knocked over was in Afghanistan...

You are right about this...but for some reason it did not seem to result in the same kind of disruption of power that the invasion of Iraq did. Perhaps if Iraq had not happened in time we would have seen something else happen to tip everything out of balance anyway.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You are right about this...but for some reason it did not seem to result in the same kind of disruption of power that the invasion of Iraq did. Perhaps if Iraq had not happened in time we would have seen something else happen to tip everything out of balance anyway.

I fail to see how some other country or situation would stop the US from stepping into the Middle East, or what difference it would make concerning justification for doing so.

Militants want the west, dead. Read that as DEAD. They call themselves Muslim, but they are anything but. What they are is GANGS. No boundaries, nor colors of the flag of nation, nor God. They want control, and no form of diplomacy is going to give them what they ultimately want. They want CONTROL. So, they intend to take it, period. They will KILL everything in sight, to get it. There is nothing beneificient about Hamas or Hezbolah. There is nothing humanitarian about the Iranian or Syrian Governments. They could care less about human life.

There is something about the state of Israel, and its policy of letting most anyone come in and become part of Israel. There is a prophecy that EVERYONE is mostly aware of, concerning the existence, and continued existence of Israel, that some Arab nations insist will not continue. They absolutely insist that Israel will die. No reasoning, no recourse.

Israel must not, will not continue to exist. That is the Arab (certain Arabs) dictate. Don't take my word for it...just look in the news paper. If they have any say about it, Israel will be bombed out of existence.

Iran states Israel will be driven into the sea. I do believe Iranian goverment means that literally.

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

For decades the Republican Irish were bombing UK civilians, and had widespread support among Catholic communities. But whatever faults in the British response, at least we didn't send helicopter gunships and tanks into Belfast to destroy Catholic housing areas.

Frankly I can only hope the Israeli government quotes are simply an extreme and minority opinion, because I can see no justification for any military response that treat civilian deaths on this scale as simply an acceptable consequence of war.

[wil]

We have issues in thinking that the Iranian President is like our President and wields power...he doesn't. Those who do control Iran like to let him talk, it is similar to the way our Gov't leaks information and guages public/world response.

Iran has funded Hizbolah in Lebanon to no end. And now that the battle is brewing they have an open checkbook. Hizbolah has used that money to feed the poor, assist in local communities, entrench themselves as caring humanitarian entity, filling the need where the Lebanese gov't which is cash strapped. Analogous to Mayor for Life Marion Barry in DC, he put screen doors on row houses in SE and NE DC....they will vote for whatever he does, doesn't matter what else he does. Hizbolah has learned how to win the hearts of the people. US does the same thing with gov't checks to inner cities and reservation entitlement programs...it fills a need to keep people under control, and as long as Democrats back entitlement programs the innercities remain blue...tis a big game this world plays with lives, and the middle east has learned our tricks well in this regard.

But as long as we decide that the way to kill the termites in one house is to burn down the neighborhood....and as long as the neighborhood sees some value in the termites...the neighborhood will rally for against the percieved agressor. They are happy with the termites.

If we wanted to keep Hizbolah outta Lebanon, we could have supported Lebanon and filled that need that Hizbolah filled, gained the confidence and respect of the people with Humanitarian aid....not nickels and dimes but millions like Iran did.

Instead we created and feed the badger we put in that hole...and then warn others...thats a badger...I wouldn't tempt that badger if I were you. Despite the fact we put him on your land...in your face...and he immediately went to war to gain a bigger hole than we provided....thats a mean badger...we've got no control, we just feed him, and encourage him to be mean...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I fail to see how some other country or situation would stop the US from stepping into the Middle East, or what difference it would make concerning justification for doing so.
...
v/r

Q

Q, I'm not arguing with you. Just putting my own little thoughts on the matter out there. The US was provoked; the response was to do something. Would it have been enough to just go into Afghanistan and continue the hunt for ObL and other leaders of the militants? I don't know. That's not what happened so now we just keep going forward.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the sentence above. All I meant was that the terrorist faction of the middle east wanted to pick a fight with the West, and they did, and even if the US had not gone into Iraq I would not be surprised if eventually we would have been provoked into action there in some other way.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by wil

Hizbolah has learned how to win the hearts of the people. US does the same thing with gov't checks to inner cities and reservation entitlement programs...it fills a need to keep people under control, and as long as Democrats back entitlement programs the innercities remain blue...tis a big game this world plays with lives, and the middle east has learned our tricks well in this regard...

You make some good points will but please, you're going to blame even the use of this age-old tactic on the US?

luna

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Lebanon has allowed a "nation" within its nation. Hezbolah does not answer to Lebanon. The country has a disease within its body (that is affecting other bodies)...that must be erradicated. Or do you think the disease should take over Lebanon, and thus become the new Lebanon? See, then they'd have to become a government, subject to the laws of the world (international body politic). Somehow I doubt that is the intent, or desire...
v/r
Q

I'm sorry, but you are referring to people as a disease that must be erradicated?! Hitler had a similar philosophy. Who gave you that right? Are you a citizen of Lebanon? Of Israel? Is Zionism not the same disease that you are referring to where Israel became a country within a country? I am not familiar with the religion that considers people a disease... what do you call it?

My opinion: Israel should hold a countrywide vote on whether to support the atrocity and war crimes that they are committing, because that way the blood will either be spared or on the hands of everyone who votes for it. Likewise for Lebanon... hold a large vote open to all for whether to support Hezbollah, whether to counter-attack Israel, or to crack down on Hezbollah, or to remain ambivalent.

In the USA, Bush should be recognized as a dictator in foreign affairs, because the American people are NOT voting on his statements. He truly speaks for himself, and the administration barely even speaks for itself let alone the American people. In foreign affairs America is more of a dictatorship than any regime in the Middle East. Bold statement? Simple math. The population, the power ratio, and the foreign event rate is far faster now than the 4 year cycle. In 1776 there were only 2.5 million Americans, but today 300 million and the largest economy, military, and nuclear stockpile in the world. But with still only one person, one person as president, commander-in-chief, who has far, far more power today than anyone ever has in American history. His statements are wreckless. It is too much and it will only get worse. People are not taking responsibility for what is going on... the bulk of Americans don't want responsibility for all of this and the situation is only going to get worse. My opinion: Democratic countries had better become more democratic and more responsible at the individual level if they want to survive and set the example. They better start looking to DIRECT democracy and letting it guide foreign affairs. There should be large votes once per month in America, overriding congress and the president so that the American people are more internationally involved and responsible for their actions. The USA has no business backing Israel in their undemocratic, tyrannical mistake. If the problem is in Lebanon, why is the USA taxpayer money going to Israel? Their attack against a neighbor these past two weeks is NOT righteous by any law, by any religion, by any means. The most active terrorist organization this week is the IDF. I wish it were not the case.

I want to see a vote by the American people on whether to pay billions of their dollars to Israel yearly. Iraq has for now far surpassed Turkey and Israel, but I question why either of them is receiving such large taxpayer dollars without the consent of the taxpayer. Why should the USA fund this atrocity? Over 2 soldiers and a few rockets?

There are some people in Israel who want Iran and Syria to attack them just as much as there are some in Syria and Iran who are driven to use Israel as an excuse for their own purposes. Why? To draw a bigger fight in the Middle East while their favored president is still in the Whitehouse. You think I'm wrong?

[wil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You make some good points will but please, you're going to blame even the use of this age-old tactic on the US?

You are right, often my writings are construed to be anti US, and while that is not the intent they do contain some bias mostly because we just like to point fingers so vehemently at other countries and societies.

Say what we will, our fore fathers were terrorists in the eyes of England. They hid munitions in cellars of the citizenry. They pulled sneak ambushes from the bushes and from second story windows of homes, they didn't wear uniforms....all the same stuff we (the US) condemns others for doing today. Am I siding with the 'enemy', no, I'm am pointing out hypocrisy. We don't want to apologize for our aparthied and slavery behaviour, we continue to mistreat the Native Americans, yet we are totally willing to jump all over other countries for similar offenses.

Human rights? Can you say Guantanamo? Yes these are age old tactics, and we have honed them to a fine skill. If we converted our defense budget to a humanitarian, peace and feed the world budget, and use these tactics for good, we could make changes. We would be supported and peoples all over would turn in the likes of Osama and everyone else for their allegiance would be different. Hizbolah were born as freedom fighters, protecting peoples lands from invading forces and opression from across the border years ago...they have grown to what they are after decades of agression...and now they fight back and we are so surprised.

[I, Brian]

cyberpi, from all accounts, the Israeli's are rallying behind the Israeli government over this, so I don't see any vote there having any effect. At heart you can see a frightened people looking to empower themselves - but in this instance, it's striking back too hard.

I mean, seriously - if Mexico found that Texas was harbouring criminal gangs who were planting bombs to kill Mexicans, and Mexico responded by shelling Texan towns and killing hundreds of civilians, would US citizens *really* be so keen to support such hypothetical Mexican actions?

After all, if it's a "war on terror" then surely there's nothing wrong with Mexico killing a few hundred Texan civilians on they off-chance they Mexico may hit a few McVey's?

I think the only reason the US support stands as it is behind Israel is because the US has already aligned itself in an "us vs them" war attitude. So it's no longer about judging a situation on it's individual merits or not - but about allowing genocide on the grounds that it's "them" rather than "us" - and who cares if it's actually a war crime or not.

On another note, the BBC correspondent in Lebannon suggests this could be cementing relations between Sunni and Shi'a militant groups:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5223210.stm