Isn't beleif in God overrated?

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Go Neitzche ! ! !

[presser_kun]

Doesn't the answer depend on the definition of God?

Some use the term to represent a personality; others a force; still others the universe -- creation itself.

Believing in a personal God is easy to comprehend, since we are accustomed to believing in people.

Believing in a force -- well, we tend to acknowledge the existence of a force, let's say, like electromagnetism, but most don't describe that acknowledgement to be like believing in someone.

Believing in the universe? Most wouldn't say they believe in it, I think.

Or would they?

To believe in somene is to trust them. "I believe in you, Mary" means "I'm willing to trust you." At least to me it does, all variations and exceptions taken into account.

As said above, people don't generally believe in non-personal things. So the question presupposes a personal God.

I guess I'm rambling. But the point I'm going for is that it isn't belief in God that's overrated; it's that believing a particular understanding of God is better than another is overrated.

[StarshipEnterprise]

Yes, I agree very much with your understanding of God, if he/she/it exists, I beleive that would be what he is like. But I still think beleif in any supreme being/force is overrated because I don't think that beleif is nessessary for leading a moral life. Also, it could be false, and if it is false, that would be a lot of wasted energy to force an issue that ended up having no value.

[presser_kun]

Blaise Pascal said that the safe bet is on God.

If you believe and it's false, you haven't done yourself any harm.

If you don't believe and you're wrong, you're in a world of hurt.

So, Pascal says, it's safer to believe in God.

This bothers absolutists of every stripe, who say that that's a terrible reason for believing in God. "You should believe in Him because" -- He loves you, or It's true, or some other reason like that.

All circular thinking, it seems to me.

[StarshipEnterprise]

If you don't believe and you're wrong, you're in a world of hurt.

I disagree. Good-hearted atheists who live compassionately and are altogether seen as good people should have no problem accepting God if they see him "face-to-face". I think you are thinking of militant atheists who are so extreme in their views they find themselvs hating God. In their case they would be in a world of hurt, but so would any theist who led an immoral life.

My overall point in the last part of my last post was that The God issue should not be stressed, living morally should.

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by StarshipEnterprise

I think you are thinking of militant atheists who are so extreme in their views they find themselvs hating God. In their case they would be in a world of hurt, but so would any theist who led an immoral life.

I fear I've not made myself clear. By world of hurt I simply mean this: If there is a God and you choose to not believe, then the part about being condemned to hell is true. Hence your life ends badly.

My overall point in the last part of my last post was that The God issue should not be stressed, living morally should.

I completely agree here. Living morally is more important than believing in God. But that's exactly what many theists see as the problem.

Emphasis on the God issue, i.e., overrating God, leads to distortion of the very thing that God supposedly wants from us: compassion. Gandhi said:

"I like your Christ.
I do not like your Christians.
They are not very much like your Christ."

If that stings, well, it should. Jesus stood for compassion, not theological position.

peace,

press

[StarshipEnterprise]

I fear I've not made myself clear. By world of hurt I simply mean this: If there is a God and you choose to not believe, then the part about being condemned to hell is true. Hence your life ends badly.

It dosen't make any sense that an all knowing, all loving God would be so petty as to condem anyone to eternal suffering for simply not beleiving in him.

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by StarshipEnterprise

It dosen't make any sense that an all knowing, all loving God would be so petty as to condem anyone to eternal suffering for simply not beleiving in him.

You're right. But many Christians (mostly fundamentalists) believe just that: that an all-knowing, all-loving God sends non-believers to hell.

I used to be an evangelical, so I know. And I even understand the reasoning behind this belief, though I no longer subscribe to it.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by StarshipEnterprise

It dosen't make any sense that an all knowing, all loving God would be so petty as to condem anyone to eternal suffering for simply not beleiving in him.

So, it is ok to say to God, I don't believe in you. But it isn't ok for God to say, "well then I don't believe in you."

Seems to me that is an awlful big chance one is taking with eternity. And the suffering could be seperation from that same God.

Kind of like ignoring someone your whole life, only to find out when they are gone, that behind the scenes and unknown to you, they were always looking out for you, and always in your corner. Now that you find out how much they made a difference in your life, it is too late, because they are gone. The result is surprise at how much they impacted your life, an emptiness, and sorrow, because you can't even thank them for what they did.

My observation of people has lead me to conclude that most staunch atheists, are in reality, angry agnostics. Those that have no anger, and say there is no God, actually are kidding themselves. For they have made themselves their god.

It is of course their choice and right. But I believe in Newton's second law, and so far, no one has been able to disprove it.

v/r

Q

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

So, it is ok to say to God, I don't believe in you. But it isn't ok for God to say, "well then I don't believe in you."

When there is no reason warranting belief in a diety of any description it would be rather absurd to speak to one, don't you think?

If despite the lack of evidence your all-powerful and all-loving god does exist is it likely it will cast people to suffering for using their ability to reason?

Originally Posted by Quahom

Seems to me that is an awlful big chance one is taking with eternity.

Pascal's Wager has been discredited so many times it deserves no more mention.

Originally Posted by Quahom

My observation of people has lead me to conclude that most staunch atheists, are in reality, angry agnostics. Those that have no anger, and say there is no God, actually are kidding themselves. For they have made themselves their god.

Which observations led you to conclude this?

I have plenty anger, but I will assume you mean anger towards god/s, of which I off-course have none. A person who is angry or hateful of god/s is not an atheist but a raging theist.

From your argument I have instilled myself as a god which, to be honest, mystifies me. Could you clarify?

Originally Posted by Quahom

I believe in Newton's second law, and so far, no one has been able to disprove it.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Jaiket

Pascal's Wager has been discredited so many times it deserves no more mention.

Sorry to sound ignorant (and to mention PW again), but could you direct me to a site that explains this?

[StarshipEnterprise]

Those that have no anger, and say there is no God, actually are kidding themselves. For they have made themselves their god.

Are you saying that a beleif similar to your own is absolutely nesessary to have in order to be humble?

[Uriella]

Okay, now I'm going to put my stick in the spokes of this wheel. I am a pagan, and I believe in the divine inherent in each and every one of us. I believe that we very much underrate ourselves and our own spark of divinity and that is why we, as human beings, often behave so arrogantly. We try to build ourselves up and be the masters of this planet and, indeed, of the universe if we could. But if we could just see and accept the divine within us, we would not need to treat the earth and the people around us so badly. So, no, I don't believe that belief in God/dess is overrated. I think it is quite the opposite.

Blessings, Uriella :-)

[StarshipEnterprise]

Indeed belief in God is a powerful thing that provides humility and security, which are both spiritual necessities. I am looking for truth however, and in order for something to be considered truth, it has to be backed up by substantial evidence. I have not seen very much evidence for the existence of God, but there is also not very much evidence that he doesn’t exist either, so I don't rule out the possibility. There certainly is something bigger than our universe and something that caused the existence of the universe, but no one knows what it is. If there is a higher power like God, I don't believe it would have the characteristics of a being like we usually give to God. This is just a thing people use to relate to God better which I can't see being reality.

As for the humility and security that belief in God gives people, there are other ways to get them. Things that obviously are truths can make us humble, such as the vastness of the universe-- there clearly are things greater than ourselves considering the vastness of the universe. It is also apparent that there is no reason for my wants and needs to be any more important than the wants and needs of anyone else. I'm not as sure about how to obtain the security one gets from belief in God, but I know Buddhists have figured it out. I think being compassionate can give security in itself because seeing that you are making someone else happy by giving up some of your needs can bring great joy.



I have no problem with other people believing in God, I try to respect everyone's beliefs. What I don't like is when people are exclusivist about their views. Open-mindedness is essential.



2c.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Jaiket

When there is no reason warranting belief in a diety of any description it would be rather absurd to speak to one, don't you think?

If despite the lack of evidence your all-powerful and all-loving god does exist is it likely it will cast people to suffering for using their ability to reason?

Pascal's Wager has been discredited so many times it deserves no more mention.

Which observations led you to conclude this?

I have plenty anger, but I will assume you mean anger towards god/s, of which I off-course have none. A person who is angry or hateful of god/s is not an atheist but a raging theist.

From your argument I have instilled myself as a god which, to be honest, mystifies me. Could you clarify?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?

Is the arguement that:

1. There is no God? or

2. I don't believe in God?

As a human, how does one know there is no God? On the other hand any human can say "I don't believe in God".

For example, there are Americans who say "I don't believe in the government of the United States". Does that mean that the government of the United States can't reach out and touch the disbelievers?

To say that there is no United States government is a foolish notion. To say I don't believe in the United States government is a declaration, in which one potetentially places themselves at odds with a very powerful "entity". This is either brave or very cavelier.

To say there is no God, whithout evidence to prove this claim, is like saying what is past the four walls surrounding me does not exist. That one has just narrowed the universe to self. That means there is nothing, and life is meaningless. However, those past those four walls surrounding the one, would beg to disagree, and would be perfectly content to let the one sit within the four walls, thinking there is nothing but them.

Me, I just poked my head in to see if the one wants to come out past the four walls...

If not, I'll be on my way.

v/r

Q