Islam in the time of the advent of the Mahdi

[arthra]

The year 1260 AH is a thousand years from the time of the "disappearance" or occultation of the Twelfth Imam and the Shaykhi leaders such as Siyyid Kazim specifically referred to the year "sixty" as the date of the appearance of the Qa'im. The "thousand years" can be found in the Qur'an in the verse:

`From the heaven to the earth, He governeth all things; hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon.'

So the prophecies about the Qa'im are also found in Hadiths attributed to Imam Sadiq.

Now the Bab revealed His station over time and gradually from the beginning of His ministry. His purpose was similar to that we feel of John the Baptist in preparing the Way for Jesus through stirring up the society at the time. The Bab in His Writings suggested quite plainly that "Him Whom God would make manifest" would soon appear and that His entire Mission was to prepare His disciples to accept Him.. Most all the Babis eventually accepted Baha'u'llah as fulfilling this prophecy.

To me one of the most fascinating parallels in prophecy is the dovetailing of both the Islamic prophecies mentioned above for the year 1260 AH and the Christian expectations that Christ would return in the year 1844 AD...one confirming the other without the two being in anyway in communication with the other separated by a great cultural and linquistic divide.

Baha'is don't accept all the Hadiths but the ones referred to in our Writings to us have special significance of course... The reliance of Hadiths in Islam however has not really continued in the Baha'i Faith as we accept only those Writings that have been authenticated as from the Pen of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and not reported sayings which we call "pilgrim notes"....these may be of interest for study but have no real weight in terms of authority.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

[/size][/font][/color][/font][/size]

My Arabic is rather basic so whilst I do not doubt your translation I shall ask my husband about this, as he is Arabic so one would hope he would know. That is to say I shall ask about the verses referring to the Seal. Interesting information though. Thank you.



I don't imagine I will be able to get any information on the Baha'i faith here in Egypt but I am sure you can teach me a lot. I shall work my way through the sites you have given me and will doubt have a billion questions.


Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and get all those sites for me to read. I shall work through them before I ask for any more info or I may fuse my brain. There is just so much to learn on this forum.

Salaam

Egypt recently took a dark turn for Baha`i's when the highest court upheld the decision to deny Baha`i's national identity cards. It's a little ironic since it was an Egyptian that found the Baha`i Faith to be a separate religion amongst all the muslim nations.

I have no doubt all will come right in the end, but for right now it is a hard time in Egypt for Baha`i's.

Regards,
Scott

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Egypt recently took a dark turn for Baha`i's when the highest court upheld the decision to deny Baha`i's national identity cards. It's a little ironic since it was an Egyptian that found the Baha`i Faith to be a separate religion amongst all the muslim nations.

I have no doubt all will come right in the end, but for right now it is a hard time in Egypt for Baha`i's.

Regards,
Scott

as salaam aleykum Scott

I haven't seen anything in the news about this. Are these people born Egyptian? That is such a problem, you get arrested if stopped not carrying your ID card and getting arrested in Egypt is far from a good idea.

This information whilst saddening, is not at all surprising. The Government here fights religion at every turn, just look at their history with the Muslim Brotherhood. I believe it shames Egypt because one of the first things I noticed when I came here is the number of towns where the mosques and churches are built side by side, in my town there is a mosque and a church that share a party wall. The government is largely responsible for any religious tensions here, the people tend to live and let live (as long as you don't do anything daft). Religious tentions here have always run high and the government has tried over the last 50 years or so to cut all ties between religion and polititcs - not easy with 98% of your population belonging to one religion.

Do you know why the ID card issue was a problem? Is there something in the Baha'i faith teachings that could be construed as insulting to Islam? I don't mean to be rude, it is just the only reason I can think of that may be viewed as causing religious tensions.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by arthra

`From the heaven to the earth, He governeth all things; hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon.'

- Art

Hi Art

Please can you give me the sura & verse number, as I'm having a problem finding this verse. Thanks

Salaam

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum Scott

I haven't seen anything in the news about this. Are these people born Egyptian? That is such a problem, you get arrested if stopped not carrying your ID card and getting arrested in Egypt is far from a good idea.

This information whilst saddening, is not at all surprising. The Government here fights religion at every turn, just look at their history with the Muslim Brotherhood. I believe it shames Egypt because one of the first things I noticed when I came here is the number of towns where the mosques and churches are built side by side, in my town there is a mosque and a church that share a party wall. The government is largely responsible for any religious tensions here, the people tend to live and let live (as long as you don't do anything daft). Religious tentions here have always run high and the government has tried over the last 50 years or so to cut all ties between religion and polititcs - not easy with 98% of your population belonging to one religion.

Do you know why the ID card issue was a problem? Is there something in the Baha'i faith teachings that could be construed as insulting to Islam? I don't mean to be rude, it is just the only reason I can think of that may be viewed as causing religious tensions.

Salaam

Back in the days of the United Arab Republic, part of the agreement with Syria was to make illegal the Baha`i Faith in Egypt. This was rescinded after the dissolution of the UAR, but the religious 'right' in Egypt has been uncomfortable with what they consider a 'heretic religion' since.

The old practice under Egyptian law was to allow the "reglion" spacfe to remain blank, but the court case decided that the only choices that can filled in are Jewish, Christian and Muslim and it must not be left blank. The test case came up when an Egyptian Dentist tried to register his passports with his son's name attached as his child. The ID card had to be renewed and the government decided that it was time for the religion space to not be left blank anymore.

A lower court sided with the dentist, and the Government's executive branch agency whatever it was in particular lodged a complaint with the ruling sending it to the higher.

The higher court dithered and hemmed and hawed, then reset the hearing date several times, but finally was forced to come down with a ruling against the Baha`i's.

Baha`i's are forbidden to dissimulate their religion. They cannot within the bounds of their faith register as some other religion.

The original court ruling:
Baha'i related: Egypt ruling recognising Bahai rights

The intra-government conflict:
WorldWide Religious News-Court suspends ruling recognising Bahai rights

The ultimate decision:
The Bahá'ís: The Situation of the Bahá'í Community of Egypt

Regards,
Scott

[Muslimwoman]

Thanks Scott, interesting reading. Do you have anything that says what the fathers stated religion was on his passport before he tried to register his son?

Unfortunately Egypt is still effectively a police state and a very corrupt one. Their attitude to paperwork & religion is astonishing. When I used to live here on a visa I never had any problems, the first time I tried to re-enter Egypt on a residents stamp I was held by police for over 2 hours because my passport doesn't state my religion. My husband had to drive to our home and back with my papers from Al-Azhar stating I am Muslim and even then they wouldn't release me until the Consulate confirmed UK passports do not state religion.

This from a President that states he believes in democracy and believe me Mubarak has a hand in anything like this, he controls every aspect of goverment.

Salaam

[Postmaster]

btw if you haven't already come across this, the core teaching to the Baha'i faith is progressive revelation.

Progressive revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thanks Scott, interesting reading. Do you have anything that says what the fathers stated religion was on his passport before he tried to register his son?

Unfortunately Egypt is still effectively a police state and a very corrupt one. Their attitude to paperwork & religion is astonishing. When I used to live here on a visa I never had any problems, the first time I tried to re-enter Egypt on a residents stamp I was held by police for over 2 hours because my passport doesn't state my religion. My husband had to drive to our home and back with my papers from Al-Azhar stating I am Muslim and even then they wouldn't release me until the Consulate confirmed UK passports do not state religion.

This from a President that states he believes in democracy and believe me Mubarak has a hand in anything like this, he controls every aspect of goverment.

Salaam

The religion entry on the father's papers was blank.

Regards,
Scott

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

btw if you haven't already come across this, the core teaching to the Baha'i faith is progressive revelation.

Progressive revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for that Postmaster, it was an interesting read and I certainly wouldn't have known to type that into my search engine.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The religion entry on the father's papers was blank.

Regards,
Scott

So why on earth couldn't they just leave the son's religion blank? Honestly I despair sometimes.

Salaam

[Postmaster]

Your welcome, here's a simile that might help, Progressive revelation can be compared to the different classes of school, we are taught as our capacity grows to understand. Bahá’u’lláh said mankind has reached an age of maturity but is always growing in understanding.

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, MW; salaam! :-)

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

[/size][/font][/color][/font][/size]I shall work my way through the sites you have given me and will doubt have a billion questions.

Wonderful!

Do keep 'em coming! Your questions are most welcome, and we love getting them! :-)

Yes, I can see how getting information in Egypt may be tough! There are Baha'is there, but they may not be easy to find.

BTW, another site you may find very helpful at answering questions is this one: www.planetbahai.org in particular its discussion area! It has a wonderful mix of people, both Baha'i and other, and I'm sure you'll get many helpful responses there, too! (It also has a library of essays on various topics.)

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Your conversation about each religion believing they are the right way, Bruce I believe you quoted a hadith rather than the Quran. I have been taught that the Quran does not contain any such wording. Have I been taught incorrectly? I don't remember seeing such a verse and I don't rely on hadith so am very curious now.Salaam

Hi again! :-)

I was quoting from a third-party source there, and so I'm afraid I can't personally vouch for the passage.

But in general, you're right: the hadith are not the Qur'an, and many of the former are of questionable provenance.

In fact, while we Baha'is fully accept the Qur'an accurate, divinely-inspired scripture, we tend to ignore the hadith except for the few actually quoted in the Baha'i scriptures.

But given the point of the essay you were reading, which is simply to demonstrate similar passages in the various great religions, I--for one--don't find it all that surprising that the example for Islam may have come from the hadith.

Best regards, and do keep the questions coming! :-)

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by arthra

The year 1260 AH is a thousand years from the time of the "disappearance" or occultation of the Twelfth Imam and the Shaykhi leaders such as Siyyid Kazim specifically referred to the year "sixty" as the date of the appearance of the Qa'im.

Correct: 1260 is the Islamic year (AH) corresponding to 1844 CE in the Christian calendar, and is used in prophecies referring to the appearance of the Bab (which began the Baha'i Era).

The twelfth Imam disappeared in the year 260 AH, so that (as you said) 1260 is exactly a thousand years after that event.

in fact, though, there are two thousand-year periods that are relevant: the millenium from 260 to 1260, and the Baha'i millenium which we beleive began a century and a half ago at the early events of our Faith.

Regards, :-)

Bruce