Islam and The Bahai Faith

[justice_9]

Hi Art,

I wanted to address some of dear friend Imran's questions. I think it will be a good journey to discover answers to such questions.

Art/Brian,

Also, I am curious why the Baha'i Faith is on the "Modern Religions" section instead of the Abrahamic Religions section. The Baha'i Faith is 160 years only, not the "century" that defines the Modern Religions. Afterall, we are an Abrahamic religion.

Regards,
Hajir

[arthra]

Originally Posted by justice_9

Hi Art,

I wanted to address some of dear friend Imran's questions. I think it will be a good journey to discover answers to such questions.

Art/Brian,

Also, I am curious why the Baha'i Faith is on the "Modern Religions" section instead of the Abrahamic Religions section. The Baha'i Faith is 160 years only, not the "century" that defines the Modern Religions. Afterall, we are an Abrahamic religion.

Regards,
Hajir

Well Hajir

I think the thread dealt with issues of the Baha'i Faith and Islam as you know and was not simply a place to respond to Imran..as it turns out he had some bias that were in my view antagonistic, but you may pose questions if you wish.

I wasn't really involved in the decision to place Baha'i Faith in this Modern Religions heading but I suppose one could classify it as a "modern" faith.

So if you have any questions you want to pose go ahead...

- Art

[justice_9]

could you please outline some of the verses of the Quran which announce the coming of new messengers

Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

First, consider the verses in the Scrolls that point to Mose (pbuh), then the verses in the Torah that point to Jesus (pbuh), and the verses in the Gospel that point to Muhammad (pbuh).

Now, as you read the Quran, you may recognize some of the verses that point to the Revelation of God to Bahaullah and the Bab. Only the Word and Revelation of God have the power to produce a new creation.

[21.104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

[29.19-20] See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah. Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

[50.15] Were We then fatigued with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation.

Best Regards,
Hajir

[justice_9]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

1. You mentioned that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the twelfth Imam. Can you please outline specifically which of these prophecies did he fulfill?

Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Should we focus our discussion on the fulfillment of the expectations of Shaykhi Islam or general Shia Islam, or, more broadly, only Quranic (so that we can include Sunni thought into our discussion)?

[justice_9]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

1. And if the Bab was to actually come after 1,000 years, why the brief period of 69 years. Did Allah leave the people without any guide for more than 900 years?

Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Please elaborate on this. What is the 69 year period you're refering to?

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

2. There are more than 1,000 traditions which outline the Mahdi, his genealogy etc. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?

I would say 1,000 traditions is a lot.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

3. Is the interpretation of the 1,000 years in the traditions as explained by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Holy Imams (as) the same as explained by yourself?

The foundation for everything was planted by God through His Chosen Ones.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

4. When Islam started 13 years before the start of the Islamic calendar (the calendar started with the migration of the prophet from Mecca to Medina. The prophet at that time had already spent 13 years in Mecca), why is the 1,000 years being calculated from the death of the 11th Imam and not from the start of Islam? Is that a personal interpretation? Why are the 273 years (more than 25%) not taken into account for the calculation?

We maintain that the continuous flow of divine guidance lasted beyond the passing of the Prophet Muhammad, justifying our starting point for the 1,000 years period.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

5. The tradition quoted in Dawn Breakers from Imam Sadiq (as) about the year 60 does not carry any reference. I have searched all over Muslim books - both Shiite and Sunni, without any luck for the same. This tradition apparently does not exist in any Islamic book. Given that there was a gap of definitely more than 1,000 years between Nabil / Shoghi Effendi and Imam Sadiq (as), surely they would have read it someplace. Can you please throw some light on this?

Are you refering to Imam Sadiq's reference to year 69? This is based on verse Qur'an 38:88 "And most certainly you will come to know about it after a time." The phrase "after a time" has an Abjad equivalent of 69, with is equal to year 1269 or 1852, when Baha'u'llah received revelation from God in the Black Pit Dungeon of Tehran.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

6. If we are happy to accept one tradition about the Mahdi - then why would one ignore the 1,000 other traditions about him?

Which ones are you refering to?

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

7. There seems to be an apprarent contradiction between Iqan and Dawn Breakers. While the Iqan alludes that there was no physical 12th Imam, the Dawn Breakers mentions that there was a 12th Imam who physically disappeared.

Please provide both references.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

8. Why did the understanding about the Bab change over time? Was this prophecised as well.

Are you refering to the Bab's gradual unfoldment of His station?

Regards,
Hajir

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

Obviously, if there's a disparity between The Dawn-Breakers and the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude), then the latter takes precedence as it is scriptural and the other is not!

Peace,

Bruce

[arthra]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hi!

Obviously, if there's a disparity between The Dawn-Breakers and the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude), then the latter takes precedence as it is scriptural and the other is not!

Peace,

Bruce

Hmmm...well you see the sources were never supplied so the discussion ended there.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by arthra

Hmmm...well you see the sources were never supplied so the discussion ended there.

- Art

I found myself on ImranShaykh's mailing list a few months ago. I asked him to remove me from the list which he did promptly, politely and expressed sorrow I was not able to deal with 'the truth'.

I don't think he is present here anymore. Is he still on the membership list?

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by justice_9

Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

First, consider the verses in the Scrolls that point to Mose (pbuh), then the verses in the Torah that point to Jesus (pbuh), and the verses in the Gospel that point to Muhammad (pbuh).

Now, as you read the Quran, you may recognize some of the verses that point to the Revelation of God to Bahaullah and the Bab. Only the Word and Revelation of God have the power to produce a new creation.

[21.104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

[29.19-20] See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah. Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

[50.15] Were We then fatigued with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation.

Best Regards,
Hajir

Hi, happy to be back!

I visited this forum just to see what was new in terms of discussion and it so saw that there were many questions which were put up. So here I am again.

Your response was to my question about any verse in the Quran which points to the coming of a new Messenger. All the verses which you have quoted are about the Day of Judgement - keep the Muslim belief of the Day of Judgement in mind and consider that the atheists of the time disbelieved the prophet (pbuh) when he foretold of a Day when men would be brought back to life. They could not believe that Allah would bring Man back to life when his bones were decayed. Hence the verses which you have quoted above were revealed.

The above interpretation of the verses is not my own, but that of the Hoy Prophet of Islam and the Holy Imams. Refer to the last verses of Surah yaseen and you will see the same / similar words as in the verses above.

The "broad" interpretation of the verses that you have made based on the english translation is flawed. Why Bahaullah, any person, including Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani, the Mahdi from Sudan etc, all quoted the same verses to prove their message. And we Muslims, denied all of them simply because their interpretation is false. if one accepts your interpretation then any person can use those verses to make a claim of a new message from Allah.

having said that, we accept the Quran in its entirely. However for its interpretation, we do not rely upon ourselves - we rely on the same person whom Allah chose to reveal His message- The Holy Prophet (pbuh). FOr some reason, he always used these verses to indicate an actual day when all of Mankind would be raised and made answerable for their action - in effect, the Day of Judgement.

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Hmmm...well you see the sources were never supplied so the discussion ended there.

- Art

Aha, you are wrong my friend - read my web site, and you will find all the sources you want there.

Read God Passes by...etc

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I found myself on ImranShaykh's mailing list a few months ago. I asked him to remove me from the list which he did promptly, politely and expressed sorrow I was not able to deal with 'the truth'.

I don't think he is present here anymore. Is he still on the membership list?

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott:

Still here. Am glad you testified to the fact that I was prompt in removing your name from my mailing lists.

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by justice_9

Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Should we focus our discussion on the fulfillment of the expectations of Shaykhi Islam or general Shia Islam, or, more broadly, only Quranic (so that we can include Sunni thought into our discussion)?

We can do general Islam wherein both Sunni and Shiah points are covered.

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by justice_9

Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Please elaborate on this. What is the 69 year period you're refering to?



I would say 1,000 traditions is a lot.



The foundation for everything was planted by God through His Chosen Ones.



We maintain that the continuous flow of divine guidance lasted beyond the passing of the Prophet Muhammad, justifying our starting point for the 1,000 years period.



Are you refering to Imam Sadiq's reference to year 69? This is based on verse Qur'an 38:88 "And most certainly you will come to know about it after a time." The phrase "after a time" has an Abjad equivalent of 69, with is equal to year 1269 or 1852, when Baha'u'llah received revelation from God in the Black Pit Dungeon of Tehran.




Which ones are you refering to?



Please provide both references.



Are you refering to the Bab's gradual unfoldment of His station?

Regards,
Hajir

Hi:

It will help if you can read message #16 again and my replies were in relation to the quote outlined by Art in that message.

Also, as a general policy, as my posts will show, I will tend towards those arguments which have some sort of backing in terms of references - pure conjecture is not my style and not something I encourage in a rational discussion.

Regards
Imran

[Popeyesays]

Why is the thousand years calculated from the year 260?

Because with the disappearance of the 11th Imam the genuine line of the authority of Muhammad came to an end.

With whom were the gates consulting? I don't know. It is not necessary that they be physically speaking to the 11th Imam, they might be spiritually communing with the 11th Imam who departed this physical world, but whose spirit was available to them. The communication was metaphoric, not physical.

The Mihdi would be a descendant of the line of Muhammad, through Fatima and Ali. Not once in His lifetime was the Bab denied the right of the green turban as a Siyyid. By the year 1260 how many tens of thousands of Siyyid were alive?

Regards,
Scott

PS, I found the thread. But I'm going to start one in Comparative Studies where the discussion might be less disruptive to the board. I think I'll title it:
Baha`i:Islam::Christianity:Judaism expressing "Baha`i is to Islam as Christianity is to Judaism" as a logical proposition.

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Why is the thousand years calculated from the year 260?

Because with the disappearance of the 11th Imam the genuine line of the authority of Muhammad came to an end. With whom were the gates consulting? I don't know. It is not necessary that they be physically speaking to the 11th Imam, they might be spiritually communing with the 11th Imam who departed this physical world, but whose spirit was available to them. The communication was metaphoric, not physical.

The Mihdi would be a descendant of the line of Muhammad, through Fatima and Ali. Not once in His lifetime was the Bab denied the right of the green turban as a Siyyid. By the year 1260 how many tens of thousands of Siyyid were alive?

Regards,
Scott

PS, I found the thread. But I'm going to start one in Comparative Studies where the discussion might be less disruptive to the board. I think I'll title it:
Baha`i:Islam::Christianity:Judaism expressing "Baha`i is to Islam as Christianity is to Judaism" as a logical proposition.

Again it is sheer conjecture on your part without any proof that the deputies "may have been" spiritually communicating with the 11th Imam who dissappeared. Just to clarify for readers of this post, he did not "disappear". He was martyred.

Secondly, it is conjecture again from your side that the communication was spiritual not physical. And I can understand where you are coming from. Since the 11th Imam had expired, how does one explain the presence of the deputies? Simple, say that they were communicating "spiritually". And why were they communicating "spiritually" only with the 11th Imam? Why not the 10th Imam? Why not the Prophet of Islam? This entire spiritual communication theory put forth by you is well, your own theory without any proof.

Another pertinent question: Why did the Bab not forth these arguments when he was questioned about his claims? How come the Bahais are inventing these arguments now? If all this theories were true, the Bab should have raised them.

Also, if all Sayyids were eligible to be the Imam, then why only the Bab? Forget about just being a Sayyid, how many of them would have been named Ali Mohammed? Our Prophet (pbuh) knew this and that is why along with the Sayyid and a descendant of Fatemah (as), he prophecised that the Mahdi will be an Arab from his family of Bani Hashim! Not an Irani youth.

It is universally accepted that the Bab first claimed to be the Gate (Bab) of the hidden Imam. Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai and Sayyed Kazim Rashty, both acknowledged the presence of the 12th Imam. Now you want to tell me that there was no 12th Imam?

Finally, about the 1,000 years. Go and read the theory again. The Bahais claim that Islam lasted for 1,000 years and that in 1260 AH by the coming of Bab, Islam was superceeded by the Babi dispensation. Now we ask, why is 1,000 years being counted only from 260 AH. The first revelation of Islam came 273 years prior to that. If you wanted to calculate how long the Biblical dispensation lasted, it would be logical to start from the date of the first announcement of Christ, and not from the death of his last disciple. Read the theory again and question it objectively.

This thread is about Islam and the Bahai Faith. Now you want to start a new thread which will divert from this topic. Do it. Having said that Bahai is not to Islam what Christianity is to Judaism. First at least establish that Islam ever got superceeded by the Bahai Faith. I am requesting you again and again. Bring some Islamic proof that the Bab was the Mahdi. Once this is clear, then we can move ahead.

Regards, as always
Imran