Is this Offensive?

[NoName]

I am working on few short storys one involed a Pagan witch, She was going to be the Sympathy chartater of the story who feel that she must use magic to make some one fall in love with her. But then I started thinking what your views on storys like this were? Is this going to far or giving a unrealistic look at what Pagan magic is like and will this offend any one?

[brucegdc]

Making someone do anything is not ethical in my book... that's harming them, and not acceptable. I'd say if you're planning on writing, find out FIRST what the framework is - understand that before trying to use it - it'll improve your writing immensely. Writing about something you know nothing about is likely to lead to really bad writing... start from what you know & branch out from there.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by NoName

I am working on few short storys one involed a Pagan witch, She was going to be the Sympathy chartater of the story who feel that she must use magic to make some one fall in love with her. But then I started thinking what your views on storys like this were? Is this going to far or giving a unrealistic look at what Pagan magic is like and will this offend any one?

I think there's a saying:

"Write what you know; know what you write"

In other words, if the stories are aimed at publication, you would almost certainly need to look at some thorough research on a topic before writing about it.

[bgruagach]

Many Pagans include ethical rules in their spiritual systems that discourage spellwork intended to force others to do things, particularly things like love magick intended to force others to fall in love with someone.

If a Pagan character in a story were to use a love spell to force someone to fall in love with them that would likely make many Pagan readers feel that the story was not realistic. At least the character should have to see this as an ethical dilemma and agonize over whether to do a love spell or not.

[Pookarian]

What's the wiccan rede?

Do what you will, harm ye none.

I agree you can't have people manipulating others by magical will, it'll just be a rather weak work, a bit like the most awful film ever, The Wickerman.

You could have the character of the witch use her personality and intelligence to 'make' someone fall in love with her.

[seattlegal]

What's the wiccan rede?

Do what you will, harm ye none.

Wouldn't the "do what you will" part be voided out if you were to void out another's own free will?

Making someone do anything is not ethical in my book... that's harming them, and not acceptable.

Not only would that be harming the person, wouldn't that also be harming the wiccan rede? {Wouldn't that be offensive to all who honor the wiccan rede?}

[bgruagach]

There are a few myths that I see surfacing in this thread. I'd like to take a moment to clear them up a bit.

Pagan is a very broad and rather generic term that covers a lot of different religions -- many people define it as any religion that is not Judaism, Islam, or Christianity.

Witchcraft is the use of magick for practical ends and has existed in pretty much all cultures, in all religious contexts, throughout history. There are witches who are Pagan, witches who are Jewish, witches who are Christian, and witches who are Muslim. There are also witches who are agnostic and witches who are atheist. Being a witch does not necessarily mean following a specific religion.

Wicca however is a religion. A lot of people mistakenly use the words witch and Wiccan as though they meant the same thing. Wicca does draw heavily from witch lore and practices (and it's usually said that all Wiccans are witches) but not all witches are Wiccans.

Most scholars today believe that the religion of Wicca started in the early part of the 20th century largely due to the work of Gerald Gardner in the UK. There were definitely witches before Gardner's time, but there is no convincing evidence to date which indicates Wicca predates Gardner. Ronald Hutton's "The Triumph of the Moon" is an often-recommended book detailing what historians know about the history of Wicca.

The Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what you will," was only really embraced by Wiccans around the mid-1960s. Since then many Wiccans have taken the ethical statement as core to their beliefs, but there are other Wiccans who did not. The Wiccan Rede might be common among many Wiccans but it is not required nor is it universally accepted. And of course non-Wiccan witches can decide to adopt the idea or not as they choose.

Many Wiccans (myself included) interpret the Wiccan Rede to be a guideline which recommends we strive to cause the least harm possible. It's impossible to cause absolutely no harm, as even by breathing our bodies kill off microorganisms in the air. Instead we attempt to be aware of the possible consequences of our decisions and seek the path which causes least harm all around. Sometimes though we do have to cause clear harm in order to lessen harm on a greater scale. In any case, we must accept responsiblity for the consequences of our actions.

The Wiccan Rede is an idea and I seriously doubt that you can harm an idea. You can misunderstand an idea, or decide to reject an idea, but the idea does not have feelings that can be hurt and the idea itself can't be damaged (although promoting variations of it can result in the evolution of the idea.)

; )

Ben Gruagach

[seattlegal]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[flowperson]

From what you describe Ben, some versions of Wicca may have attributes similar to Jainism. I'm pretty ignorant as to it's foundational belief modes, but I do know that Jains take great pains not to harm any forms of life in any way.

My Dad was a non-church Christian, but he also functioned in this way all of his life. This may be a very basic human trait in some individuals regardless of their beliefs.

flow....

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by flowperson

From what you describe Ben, some versions of Wicca may have attributes similar to Jainism. I'm pretty ignorant as to it's foundational belief modes, but I do know that Jains take great pains not to harm any forms of life in any way.

My Dad was a non-church Christian, but he also functioned in this way all of his life. This may be a very basic human trait in some individuals regardless of their beliefs.

flow....

Wicca is a very eclectic religion. There are bits that were clearly drawn from Hinduism and other eastern faiths, so it wouldn't surprise me if Jain concepts might have been borrowed (indirectly if not directly) over time.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

Wicca is a very eclectic religion. There are bits that were clearly drawn from Hinduism and other eastern faiths, so it wouldn't surprise me if Jain concepts might have been borrowed (indirectly if not directly) over time.

"borrowing" bits from this religion... and that religion... and that looks nice have some of that oh and a bit of that... Right lets call it X... I can't see the logic in calling something that just copies scraps of other religions -a- religion... Thoughts?

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

"borrowing" bits from this religion... and that religion... and that looks nice have some of that oh and a bit of that... Right lets call it X... I can't see the logic in calling something that just copies scraps of other religions -a- religion... Thoughts?

Can you name the religion that hasn't?

I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Most religions I know some history or depth of have borrowed/grown from what was the best of previous thought and added new information or thought to it. Some have borrowed stories which may or may not be true, but which lend credence or comfort to those that listen..

[Dor]

Many Pagans include ethical rules in their spiritual systems that discourage spellwork intended to force others to do things, particularly things like love magick intended to force others to fall in love with someone.

Does that mean there are some that have no ethical rules and would not mind forcing others to do things, including but not limited to love magick?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dor

Does that mean there are some that have no ethical rules and would not mind forcing others to do things, including but not limited to love magick?

Seems we all have issues with groups or people living by their own ethics...the way some TV and tent evangilists utlize folks for line their offering baskets doesn't always seem on the up and up. Then there was some religion in oregon I think where the guru had a Rolls for every week of the year..

Yet another similarity between religions.... we all have our misfits, those that abuse what others revere and see as beautiful.

And often these few taint the whole picture for others. Common excuse boils around the end justifies the means, and no matter how much good they do...it really isn't a justification...

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by Dor

Does that mean there are some that have no ethical rules and would not mind forcing others to do things, including but not limited to love magick?

Exploitive "leaders" exist is pretty much every religious community. I'm sure we can all think of examples if we look for them.

Wicca is not a single uniform religion so there is definitely variation among groups and practitioners regarding ethics as well as basic philosophy. Just like within Christianity or Judaism or Islam there are all sorts of ethical standards, interpretations, and outlooks.