Is the cry "Anti-semetic" overused?

[bob x]

Everybody condemns the guy with the pea-shooter trying to hit back at the guy with the machine gun....

Or rather, anybody from the same race as the guy with the machine gun.

What would you be doing if you were in that ghetto, average income under a dollar a day

If they want economic development, they have to trade with their neighbors, not shoot at them all the time. As an island, Gaza has little prospect.

People seem to forget that Hamas was and is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people in a landslide victory

Yes. That indicates that the majority of the people want to continue fighting senselessly, which is very depressing. The First Law of Holes is: if you are in a hole, and don't like it, then STOP DIGGING.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

If they want economic development, they have to trade with their neighbors, not shoot at them all the time. As an island, Gaza has little prospect.

Isn't that a swings and roundabouts argument? 'If you stop shooting we will let you trade' vs 'if you let us trade we will stop shooting'.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30267702.htm

It makes you remember how lucky we are to live in countries that are not built to be prisons!!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

Or rather, anybody from the same race as the guy with the machine gun.

If they want economic development, they have to trade with their neighbors, not shoot at them all the time. As an island, Gaza has little prospect.

Yes. That indicates that the majority of the people want to continue fighting senselessly, which is very depressing. The First Law of Holes is: if you are in a hole, and don't like it, then STOP DIGGING.

lmao, wow man....you awe me with your insight!!

[bob x]

The reason Israel occupied the territories in 1967 was because the Palestinians were lobbing the "Saiqa" rockets at their farms, and infiltrating guerrilas to plant bombs-- and now they say "occupation is the cause of the terrorism"? No, it is the reverse.
The Israelis will always act to minimize Israeli casualties, to the best of their abilities (they will never show much concern for how many Palestinian casualties that costs). Therefore, there will be a Palestinian state only when the Israelis do not think that it will just lead to more, and more successful, attempts to kill Israelis. This is a very simple point, really.

[I, Brian]

A Palestinian state is inevitable, though, as Sharon suddenly realised and u-turned on objections to it - that Palestinian birth rates outstripped Israeli ones, and therefore any future single state would end up having a Palestinian majority at the wheel of its democracy.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

The reason Israel occupied the territories in 1967 was because the Palestinians were lobbing the "Saiqa" rockets at their farms, and infiltrating guerrilas to plant bombs-- and now they say "occupation is the cause of the terrorism"? No, it is the reverse.

Ahem, Palestinians throwing rockets would explain why Israel took land from Egypt, Syria and Jordan at this time then? And despite UN resolution 242 calling for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories they have failed to do so. Of course over time they gave back some land for peace deals but managed to hang on to the bits that produce most of the water in that region - funny that.

Despite everyone in the world agreeing, even their staunchest supporters the US, that the occupied territories are in fact 'occupied' Israel will not accept this and states that in their case this has no legal basis and by using the word it may damage future negotiations. So by placing permanent settlements there they obviously believe this will not damage further negotiations - hell it is good to know Israel is always right and everyone else is always wrong because the Israeli's say so.

Originally Posted by bob x

Therefore, there will be a Palestinian state only when the Israelis do not think that it will just lead to more, and more successful, attempts to kill Israelis. This is a very simple point, really.

Or when the world finally gets sick of Israel being a law unto itself and withdraws all support. It would be interesting to see how Israel got on without all those US weapons and planes and cash. Maybe they would have to fall back on home made rockets?

Originally Posted by bob x

(they will never show much concern for how many Palestinian casualties that costs).

You are aware that that is internationally illegal aren't you?

[bob x]

Ahem, Palestinians throwing rockets would explain why Israel took land from Egypt, Syria and Jordan at this time then?

Not just that, of course: all the concerted efforts to wipe them out are what they wanted to put a stop to.

And despite UN resolution 242 calling for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories they have failed to do so.

The resolution did not call for Israel to withdraw from "the" occupied territories: there was a long-drawn-out debate specifically about whether to include the word "the", implying a return to the exact earlier boundaries; instead it called for Israel to withdraw from occupied territories, which could be taken as meaning just "some" of the territories (as they have done), in exchange for peace, which the Arab nations have never offered under any basis except a return to the exact earlier boundaries. Those boundaries were inherently unstable. I would agree that if Israel wants to grab and keep territory it did not have before 1967, it ought to turn over some territory in exchange, roughly comparable in value: that was the starting point of the abortive 2000 negotiations.

It would be interesting to see how Israel got on without all those US weapons and planes and cash.

That is not going to happen. Quite aside from the Christian fundamentalists with their religious reasonings, the US is filled with people like me who find the Palestinian behavior despicable, and we won't change our attitudes until the Palestinians change their behavior.

(they will never show much concern for how many Palestinian casualties that costs).
You are aware that that is internationally illegal aren't you?

The Palestinians, of course, DO care how many Israeli casualties they cause: they want to cause as many as possible. You don't have any "legal" or "moral" qualms about that? They don't care how many Palestinian casualties result from their activities, either.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Not just that, of course: all the concerted efforts to wipe them out are what they wanted to put a stop to.

Well killing children will achieve that eventually but they will have to step up the pace if they want to wipe out a whole generation. Perhaps their current consideration on whether to cut off all water, electricity, gas and 'basic commodities' to Gaza will achieve this for them? If you can't kill them with planes then starve the buggers to death (seems they learnt a lot during WWII).

So they are working outside the Fourth Geneva Convention, the International Court of Justice says their actions are in breach of international law, under the statutes of the International Criminal Court (which of course Israel refused to retify) they are guilty of war crimes and the UNSC has said "that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity" but because the word 'the' isn't in a document Bob over in the good old USofA is ignoring all of this, waving his little flag and cheering for more dead people. Hey good on you Bob.

[bob x]

they will have to step up the pace if they want to wipe out a whole generation

They are not ATTEMPTING to wipe out the Palestinians: if they did attempt that, there wouldn't be Palestinians. They are keeping the Palestinians as locked up as possible, so that the Palestinians do as little damage as possible.

waving his little flag and cheering for more dead people

No, goddamn you, I am against more dead people. Until the Palestinians acknowledge that murdering random people is a CRIME, and that pointing fingers around and saying "Look, those other people are evil too" is NO EXCUSE, I favor keeping them imprisoned.

[wil]

I could be wrong....but I'm of the opinion that unless you've spent serious time over there on both sides of the fence/wall....and talked to both sides...w/o that one really has no clue what they are talking about.

I've read story after story about bulldozing villages, about attacks, about checkpoints, about suicide bombers....and by definition it is all hearsay...

I've spoke with many folks here in the states...who lived there...on both sides...and they've all said what we think is much worse than reality over there....

And then I hear from those who are just incensed on either side... who have never been there...but act like they are the expert...and it really appears they are no more an expert than I....and I truly know nothing but hearsay.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

They are not ATTEMPTING to wipe out the Palestinians: if they did attempt that, there wouldn't be Palestinians. They are keeping the Palestinians as locked up as possible, so that the Palestinians do as little damage as possible.

Like the Nazi's and the Ghettoes.

No, goddamn you, I am against more dead people. Until the Palestinians acknowledge that murdering random people is a CRIME, and that pointing fingers around and saying "Look, those other people are evil too" is NO EXCUSE, I favor keeping them imprisoned.

When is Israel going to realise this is a crime?

You have the most jaundiced blinkered view of this possible. You should go live there indeed.

Tao

[bob x]

Like the Nazi's and the Ghettoes.

Had the Jews been randomly murdering Germans for 90 years?

When is Israel going to realise this is a crime?

The Israelis don't kill at random, they act to minimize Israeli casualties. The Palestinians act to maximize deaths on the other side, without doing any good even for themselves. This is a very basic point. I will keep repeating it until you get it.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

Had the Jews been randomly murdering Germans for 90 years?

No but they did during the Weimer Republic era run the banking/loanshark rackets in seriously deprived areas. The stranglehold they had on the average Germans ability to feed his family likely contributed to how easily your average German was persuaded to hate the Jewish population. And your question is hardly relevant anyway. The Jewish people have never tried to occupy a region of Germany and call it theirs.

The Israelis don't kill at random, they act to minimize Israeli casualties. The Palestinians act to maximize deaths on the other side, without doing any good even for themselves. This is a very basic point. I will keep repeating it until you get it.

Ohhhhh so you expect the people who see their homes bulldozered and their land occupied by an invasion of people with no right or claim to that land to just give it up without a fight!!.. What about I come over there and take your home, bomb the school of your children, demolish generations of you kith and kins hard work in building a community? Would you just sit idly back and take it? So you can repeat all you want, it dont make you right. It is noted you say Israel acts to minimize its own casualties. You have a decent grasp of written language. I get what you mean. I hope you reap what you sow.

Tao

[bob x]

No but they did during the Weimer Republic era run the banking/loanshark rackets in seriously deprived areas.

Your bigotry is just astounding, and your inability to see it is even more so.

just give it up without a fight!!..

What I am telling is that random murders are not "fighting". It does not in any way interfere with the ability of Israelis to do them harm, and of course it greatly increases the willingness.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

Your bigotry is just astounding, and your inability to see it is even more so.

No your ignorance is. You wish to see the provision of factual information as bigoted that's your problem not mine. You yourself however have shown a level of bigotry toward the people of Palestine that would be laughable if it was not so lamentable.

What I am telling is that random murders are not "fighting". It does not in any way interfere with the ability of Israelis to do them harm, and of course it greatly increases the willingness.

And what I am telling you is Israel is no less random. Unless its hitting schools... it does that consistently.

Tao