Is the cry "Anti-semetic" overused?

[bob x]

I agree absolutely with Muslimwoman (don't everyone fall over in a faint now!) that Brian's post shows the kind of thing we desparately need to see more of: people on both sides willing to work for peace despite the grief of their own losses.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

I agree absolutely with Muslimwoman (don't everyone fall over in a faint now!) that Brian's post shows the kind of thing we desparately need to see more of: people on both sides willing to work for peace despite the grief of their own losses.

I fainted ...... twice

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? Where have I suggested that the US is a single soul?

When you compare individuals, people, or countries to dominos... you are saying they have no soul to choose for themselves. The classic is the dilemma within blackmail, terrorism, or hostage taking... "If you don't do it I'm gonna kill him, so then it is on you... are you going to kill him?"

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

We are talking about politics, about a war caused by politics (ie mankind), so where do you think my faith in G-d fits into that discussion?

When your model of the world and the people in it is like dominos.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

This is from Principles of Democracy (a US government site) forgive me if I take their word over yours. Please note that according to your government the second principle of democracy is majority rule.

On the surface, the principles of majority rule and the protection of individual and minority rights would seem contradictory. In fact, however, these principles are twin pillars holding up the very foundation of what we mean by democratic government.

Britain, my home country, is a representative democracy. We elect our leaders via the one person, one vote system and the majority rules. These representatives then make political decisions on our behalf but without the majority vote they cannot become representatives.

In the USA an elected minority known as government rules. They themselves are a very small portion of the population.

It does not necessarily have to be a majority vote either. Another method would be to require a specific percentage of the population's votes before electing in another government. Say for example that any one new candidate must have 33% of the votes before a change in government... which would be a minority of the vote. If two candidates achieved 33% then there could be a successive majority vote. Think outside of the box when it comes to voting.

In the world individuals elect whether or not to follow God, and while there are many people there is only one God, correct? Well, so do the people rule... or does God? There is an example of democracy that does NOT require a majority vote. If you want to vote for God's will on Earth within your life then it is a minority vote... yours. No?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

It does not matter how many times I tell you this you just refuse to listen so I shall try shouting in case you are hard of hearing......I AM BRITISH, I AM CURRENTLY IN THE UK, MY GOVERNMENT IS AN ELECTED DEMOCRACY, MY PROPAGANDA COMES FROM THE UK & US GOVERNMENTS.

Get it now? So trying to talk down to me as though I am some uneducated desert Arab that has no opinion beyond what my Imams tell me is about as effective as peeing in the wind.

What, and the USA learned democracy from the UK? I'm sorry you think I am trying to talk you down and I'll try to ignore you as you claim that the USA knocked over dominos and has a government they didn't elect. I personally don't generalize desert Arabs as being uneducated or with no opinion other than what some Imam tells them, but since you've called them dominos and claimed to be married to one living in Egypt... I'll take your generalization under consideration.

[cyberpi]

You know I was just thinking though... the world trade center did look like a couple of giant dominos.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

When you compare individuals, people, or countries to dominos... you are saying they have no soul to choose for themselves.

What are you talking about? The domino effect has nothing to do with people or souls, it is an act or force which causes a chain reaction. Aggresive behaviour creates aggresive behaviour. If the US decides to attack Iran then Iran will retaliate, UK will join the side of US, Syria will support Iran, etc, etc - it is a chain reaction, which can also be called a domino effect.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Say for example that any one new candidate must have 33% of the votes before a change in government... which would be a minority of the vote.

So are you suggesting that in the US if one candidate gets the 33% required but another gets 49% that th one with 33% wins the election?

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If you want to vote for God's will on Earth within your life then it is a minority vote... yours. No?

All of the statistics I can find would suggest that between 34-38% of the worlds population either do not believe in any form of god or have a spiritual belief that does not include a being called god. That would mean that between 62-66% of the world do believe in some form of G-d. Now maths may not be my strongest subject but that looks like a majority to me.

Are you then suggesting that my faith in G-d means I do not believe that the actions and politics of mankind can affect my life?

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I'll take your generalization under consideration.

What you said was:

I question who you are to be teaching me the democracy from your propaganda. Well?

Who's propoganda were you refering to, if not the Arab's?

[17th Angel]

what anti-[insert your preference] isn't over used?

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

No. We don't know what it would be like if the Palestinians tried diplomacy to
the exclusion of random murder.

So you think the Palestinians have never tried to talk to Israel? The Palestinian Liberation Organization actually tried to negotiate with Israel, that was totally unsuccessful, in fact, Ehud Barak wouldn't even write down a formal offer for Arafat and the PLO to consider.

At least they tried. And again, the Saudis came up with a plan called the Arab Peace Initiative that the Palestinians were willing to cooperate with, and who turns it down, Israel, even though it actually stipulated that there still be an Israel (that's more than Hamas will do), just one with slightly less territory and with borders actually created by the UN before the Six Day War.
There's two opportunities for peaceful negotiation already out the window.

The Chechen situation is not even the same, Chechens were explicitly allowed the right to return, the right to build up their lives again in Chechen Republic. They didn't have a wall sealing them in, Chechnya was never independent, so of course no one would want to even consider an independent Chechnya because what would that prove. Russia is actually helping Chechnya for once, building up Grozny again, but I can't say the same for Israel and Palestine, and likely never will be able to.

Palestinians have tried and are still attempting (though blocked by Hamas) to negotiate with Israel (which won't give up anything no matter how many lives it costs, because god forbid they lose an acre of a created jewish homeland), they aren't all running around like maniacs and firing rockets at Israelis every chance they get. They aren't pulling Beslan incidents. They should be taken seriously instead of blown off " yeah, they're just crazies, we don't have to try to negotiate anymore, just seal 'em off and maybe they'll shut up. "

[madeinrussia89]

Agh.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Oh heavens Tao I wasn't suggesting the end of days is coming, just another war in the Middle East and as you point out Russia and China are flexing their muscles a little now so I doubt they would just sit back and watch.

I just happen to think that the US are going to push things too far in the Mid East one day soon and will start a chain reaction. They do not have the manpower to fight a major large scale war and while the UK will follow the US up the wazoo I do not feel that the rest of Europe is quite so stupid. Putin is building stronger links with Europe and we know he will not support an aggresive attack on the ME. I just see a domino effect happening, as happened with WWII.

I wouldn't be so sure about the thought that Putin would not go along with an aggressive attack on the ME. If he had a legitimate reason (or even a really illegitimate reason that looked good) to go to war with anyone, especially Iran, he would and he'd do it in a heartbeat. Especially after they (some Iranians) planned to assassinate him. No Muslim should ever put any real faith behind the fact that Putin will avoid the wholesale slaughter of Muslims. The Duma, Putin, and Russia in general will piss off, intimidate, and murder Muslims any chance it gets, whether in Kosovo, Iran, or on any war front.

Western Europe has already been proven stupid enough as it is for following us into Iraq, I wouldn't put it past them to follow us into Iran (if it comes to that) too like lapdogs. They can't exactly control anything the US does, it's not like we're going to stop to think about what we're doing when Europe puts its' foot down, we never have before.

[bob x]

No. We don't know what it would be like if the Palestinians tried diplomacy to
the exclusion of random murder.
So you think the Palestinians have never tried to talk to Israel?

I am saying they have never tried STOPPING THE MURDERS. Talks would go very differently then.

they aren't all running around like maniacs and firing rockets at Israelis every chance they get. They aren't pulling Beslan incidents

They ARE, in fact, firing rockets as often as they get the chance. Israel has successfully lessened their chances. They aren't pulling Beslans because they have been, largely successfully, sealed off. Are you criticizing Israel because they want to limit their own casualties as much as possible, and have done a good job at it?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

The Duma, Putin, and Russia in general will piss off, intimidate, and murder Muslims any chance it gets, whether in Kosovo, Iran, or on any war front.

My thought process was not that Putin would not kill Muslims but that he is unlikely in my opinion to side with the US. It is about superpower, political one upmanship and Russia appears to be on the verge of re-emerging as a strong political force but I do not think it is likely Putin would play poodle to Bush (hell the Russians would protect their worst enemy if it meant getting one up on the US). Ever get the feeling we are all just one big chess game?!

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Western Europe has already been proven stupid enough as it is for following us into Iraq, I wouldn't put it past them to follow us into Iran (if it comes to that) too like lapdogs. They can't exactly control anything the US does, it's not like we're going to stop to think about what we're doing when Europe puts its' foot down, we never have before.

The UK have already made noises against supporting US in an attack against Iran. Our news said this week that Bush is trying to 'encourage' through blackmail the French to put troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. The French President seems delighted, in that it is his chance to 'come in from the cold' but the French are unlike the Brits, the people have no fear of telling their government to sod off.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

I am saying they have never tried STOPPING THE MURDERS. Talks would go very differently then.

They ARE, in fact, firing rockets as often as they get the chance. Israel has successfully lessened their chances. They aren't pulling Beslans because they have been, largely successfully, sealed off. Are you criticizing Israel because they want to limit their own casualties as much as possible, and have done a good job at it?

Some might be firing qassams as much as possible, but that's not a majority, not by a longshot. So, I don't know how it then becomes okay to ride on that stereotype that they're all terrorists and willing to kill Israelis at any time to justify walling them off.

They aren't pulling Beslans because that wouldn't do anything for anyone,not because they aren't capable of pulling something that catastrophic. Once you pull a Beslan-like incident, you lose everything, there is no real point to keep going.

I'm criticizing Israel for turning down negotiations that could have saved EVERYONE casualties.

[bob x]

Some might be firing qassams as much as possible, but that's not a majority, not by a longshot.

The rocket-firers were elected as their official representatives, by an overwhelming majority.

They aren't pulling Beslans because that wouldn't do anything for anyone

IF ONLY they would understand that principle.... They have always carried out completely pointless murders that wouldn't do anything for anyone, when they are able. They are succeeding in carrying out fewer of them, because they have been sealed off.

Once you pull a Beslan-like incident, you lose everything, there is no real point to keep going.

Yep. For me it was the RFK murder and the first great wave of hijackings in 1968, for a friend of mine it was the Munich Olympics, for others it was the nursery massacre or the school-bus bombings or the old man in the wheelchair or the pizzeria or the disco-- for all of us who despise the Palestinians, there was one particular Beslan-like incident after which they lost everything, all respect, any reason for them to keep going.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

My thought process was not that Putin would not kill Muslims but that he is unlikely in my opinion to side with the US. It is about superpower, political one upmanship and Russia appears to be on the verge of re-emerging as a strong political force but I do not think it is likely Putin would play poodle to Bush (hell the Russians would protect their worst enemy if it meant getting one up on the US). Ever get the feeling we are all just one big chess game?!

Putin would side with the US to get the chance at whacking the Middle East. He would side with anyone for that. But yeah, he is definately not Bush's poodle, he just sides with Bush when it is most beneficial for Russian economic interests.

The UK have already made noises against supporting US in an attack against Iran. Our news said this week that Bush is trying to 'encourage' through blackmail the French to put troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. The French President seems delighted, in that it is his chance to 'come in from the cold' but the French are unlike the Brits, the people have no fear of telling their government to sod off.

The UK may say that now, but they would give in to us. They always have. I haven't got the impression that the US is afraid to tell the UK to sod off, after all, we do that all the time anyway by going against all their recommendations.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

The rocket-firers were elected as their official representatives, by an overwhelming majority.

So the representative effectively represents all Palestinians even when elected? Does Bush represent all Americans or even a majority even though he was elected?

Yep. For me it was the RFK murder and the first great wave of hijackings in 1968, for a friend of mine it was the Munich Olympics, for others it was the nursery massacre or the school-bus bombings or the old man in the wheelchair or the pizzeria or the disco-- for all of us who despise the Palestinians, there was one particular Beslan-like incident after which they lost everything, all respect, any reason for them to keep going.

Even though the Israeli army and Jewish settlers have also targetted Palestinian children (in record numbers), including 130 in 2003 alone, using them as human shields, opening far on palestian children playing with cap-guns in the street. Or detaining children during the beginning of the Intifada for no reason.

Israel has killed at least 545 Palestinian children since the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000 and has injured 20,000.

Or the fact that they shot a 6 year old in the back of the head at a refugee camp. What terrorist attack was that boy going to pull? He was 6.

How many Beslan-like crimes against children for Israel is that? Too many, one is too many. They have both pulled this ****, but what gets me is that Israel gets all the allies, even though they are by far causing the most casualties.