Is Tasering Okay?

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi...Point one...no comment !

Oh no, that's not fair. First Officer Angel defers to answer a simple question, and now Flow?? Golly gee willikers, officers, am I to simply assume that the two of you are some kind of winky-winky partners in organized crime?



Lame. Somebody answer the question. It's legit: 17th, are you a police officer? Flow, are you?

Originally Posted by flowperson

A Senator is brought to a public forum to speak. This person is so prominent that he even once aspired to Presidential office. A youthful protester is knowingly included in the audience with the intent of using him and his known tendencies to cause disruption. The disruption occurs. Police react with "appropriate" non-lethal, yet terribly painful. tasering to subdue the rabble-rouser. The incident is recorded and broadcast globally thru digital channels. All the while, everyone except the authorities are ignorant of the fact that the episode was staged and controlled from the outset to produce a desired outcome. It happens every day now, more and more often, and it is all turning us into a mass of creativeless drones.

I don't believe that Big Brother is this intelligent and all-controlling. Even so, it works both ways, doesn't it, though? The weapon that Authority wields against dissent actually cuts Authority, too--it cuts both ways. I believe there are still many intellligent and principled people, even in our dumbed-down, media-saturated "democracitic republics", who aren't cowards, and when they see stupid footage of someone exercising their "freedom of speech" being forcibily removed, silenced, and tasered, that sparks outrage . Sure, it's not a Rodney King scenario--or is it? It can be answered the same damn way: "Can't we all just get along??"

Originally Posted by flowperson

Have a happy day everyone !

flow....

Indeed.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

He was disrupting a debate or whatever (remember I have no sound card on this cpu.) And after CONSTANT warnings he still refused.... It's one thing to have your say.. WHICH HE DID.... But then it is another thing to disrupt the peace And ignore officers of the freaking law. THE LAW!

Okay, 17th. Here's the deal, he was not 'disrupting a debate.' This event was not a debate. This, I believe, was an event where Senator John Kerry came down to an university in Florida and gave a talk. After he was done with his talk, he and the event producers opened the floor up to questions, as they often do at these things. I have been to many events like this one. When the speaker is done with the main event, there are often mics set up and people from the audience have an opportunity to ask questions. This child was taking his opportunity and using it to make a point and ask several questions. He had waited his turn, I believe, and had followed proper procedure.

The powers that be did not like his tone, his attitude, and his presentation. They can be seen in the video exerting verbal pressure: "Ask your question," to which he responds, "I am going to ask my question, but I want to inform people first." He challenges Kerry on some points and issues: "Why did you concede the election in 2004 so quickly?" he asks.

I am providing you with some relevant details, 17th, as I understand that you have no sound on your cpu and therefore haven't really watched the video. You have watched a pantomime and projected onto it your own preconceptions and judgements. It's kind of like watching The Wizard of Oz all stoned or trippin' with the sound turned down and Pink Floyd's album Dark Side of the Moon turned up. Know what I mean? wink wink, nudge nudge

Please, before jumping to any more conclusions, 17th, do me a favor. Watch the video with the sound turned up.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I also think, perhaps many of you have innocent eyes... You haven't seen much of the world of "violence" and "order".... This is a walk in the park, trust me, no need for arms around the world... There is no brutality here... This was done correct... They cautioned. They warned, the attempted to calm the situation down, they tried to remove him from the area... Still trying to make it as much of a problem as possible... Bam, taser, obedience please.... Thanks.

Simply disagree, thank you very much for your authoritative opinion. I know you are a prominent advocate of law and order and drug use.

I vaguely recall another debate? Scientology anyone? The man became angry and started shouting, screaming causing a scene...... I can't recall sorry, did the majority say his way of getting something across was right? I can't remember... Remind me....

lolz...

are you referring to Tom Cruise?? Was Tom Cruise arrested for his beliefs? Was he hassled, tasered, forcibliy silenced? Or was he just subject to public murmurings and sneering ridicule for what he believes in? Big difference in my mind, and a much more appropriate response.

kthnx

My final Verdict: You're all over reacting, and he had it coming.

And still: I disagree. You are justifying and blowing off state-sponsored violence.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flow!

Originally Posted by flowperson

A Senator is brought to a public forum to speak. This person is so prominent that he even once aspired to Presidential office. A youthful protester is knowingly included in the audience with the intent of using him and his known tendencies to cause disruption. The disruption occurs. Police react with "appropriate" non-lethal, yet terribly painful. tasering to subdue the rabble-rouser. The incident is recorded and broadcast globally thru digital channels. All the while, everyone except the authorities are ignorant of the fact that the episode was staged and controlled from the outset to produce a desired outcome. It happens every day now, more and more often, and it is all turning us into a mass of creativeless drones.

Oh, my goodness! Are you suggesting that a liberal, a democrat, might actually be up to staging such a prank? A prank which suggests the silencing of a moderate/conservative voice of a student in opposition? In Florida, no less? Come to think of it, it was somewhat amusing that Kerry had nothing to say about the incident, which effectively ended his speaking engagement (it was not a debate, Kerry officially is not in the presidential race this time).

No, I simply cannot believe that a liberal democratic senator would stage a prank such as this in the state of Florida! Afterall, we're still reeling from that *other* Florida political debacle, hanging chads. Oh yes, and that other political debacle of daring to move our primary election date forward.

No, I cannot understand why the democratic party should wish to make a further nuisance out of the state that until recently was governed by our fair president's own blood brother.

I do hope my sarcasm comes through,

Big brother? Indeed. And we are asking for it, nay begging for it.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

It can be answered the same damn way: "Can't we all just get along??"

Namaste Pathless,

I can answer for myself, I ain't no cop. Of course as we know when we were under 30 and we didn't trust anyone over 30 we thought that question when answered in the affirmative would imply entrapment and protect oneself from prosecution....clearly not so.

But back to your question...Can't we all just get along.... Can you please tell us how the tasered individual in this case was trying to get along? He clearly wasn't he was in provocation mode, get my point across mode, raising his hand and saying, ME, ME. Been there done that. Now if one isn't aware of the potential outcomes of this...one really has no business being there.

Did the police over react??....maybe. Were they put into a situation where the likelihood of them over reacting, erring to the cautious side...errr....yes. Do I fault them in this situation....no...not with the information currently provided.

When the Secret Service, BATF, State or local Police, have had me surrounded and arms drawn in the past...I've backed down. But when they reholster their weapons and cameras are rolling...I go back in to active noise mode. (sometimes much to the chagrin of my compatriots)

[juantoo3]

One point to concede to Pathless, the student was already under submission by the officers *before* he was tasered. From the local reports, there is an investigation underway, a portion having to do with whether or not the student was already handcuffed at the time he was tasered, which would constitute inappropriate use of force. The two officers primarily involved are suspended with pay until the investigation concludes, according to the evening news last night.

On the *up* side to all of this (if it can be said to have one), I see it is already opening up a dialogue about inappropriate use of force by those charged with protecting us.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Lame. Somebody answer the question. It's legit: 17th, are you a police officer? Flow, are you?



I don't believe that Big Brother is this intelligent and all-controlling.

Lame...This little exchange is a tit for tat that 17th and I are having because I asked him on another thread if he was an "undercover copper" and he responded "no comment".

I can assure you that despite my aged and fragile body and even more precarious emotional and mental state that I am still a borderline anarchist and can go into a "violation of individual rights rant" at the drop of a hat. There are those who would like to view me as being some sort of cop, but I assure you and them that my heart just isn't into doing anything other than protecting others and, to the extent possible, providing them with service when required, even though my brain might be required to do otherwise.

I can also assure you that the state of the art technological systems available today can indeed control a fixed environment and the individuals operating within them to a degree that most would believe to be impossible. Human activities within artificial constructions are, under the appropriate conditions, thoroughly controllable and manipulatable. And this opinion is based upon knowledge that I acquired twenty tears ago. I question anything like this episode that makes the media spin machines go crazy. There's usually always something purposeful behind it...you know, life imitates art, art imitates life, life imitates art, etc....

flow....

[Francis king]

yeah, I watched this footage on TV and thought- way- bit strong, that... the guy was already on the floor and surrounded by men, he wasn't a crazed psycho with a big gun, he was just a guy opening his mouth when people didn't want him to. they tasered him, even though he was already prone, on the floor, unable to move, sheesh, man... I'm so happy I live here... be quiet- no... zap!

[juantoo3]

Andrew Meyer (Myer, Mier, not sure of the spelling). That's the kid's name, if anyone is interested.

[wil]

In reading all the reports it appears to me Andrew intended on making as large a scene as possible. And getting tasered did exactly as he wished. He brought his statements, his best game, and his cameraman to record everything so we would be talking about it today.

So let's see you or someone paid or provided the hall, you've paid for advertising to get people to come so you can tell your story (Kerry or anyone else) and have got security there to insure things go smoothly.

Now someone else decides to take advantage of your efforts (he is not willing or capable of gathering his own crowd in his own hall) and is set on disrupting your efforts.

Once it has started, they ask him to leave, they cut off his mike, they attempt to move him from the hall... all to no avail, until they jolt him with a supposedly non lethal electrical shock which subdues yet creates no long lasting damage...

How would anyone else have handled it?

Note...he was chuckling as he was taken outside as to the how 'he's got them now'

I see it all as intentional....carefully weighed and calculated the risks vs. reward correctly...he would have been pissed had it not gone the way it did.

[Francis king]

heckling is part of the public speakers' game... if you are going to make a speech, give a talk, demonstration, presentation, et cetera, to the public, then don't be suprised if you meet up with a heckler...

of course, hecklers are a pain- you have this cleverly worded speech, or idea, to convey to the assembled, all of which are usually supportive of your message when- a voice pipes up at the back- "you're talking ****e"

anyone who has been in this situation knows what comes next...

as the titled speaker, you make it look like you're listening to the heckler. Then you offer them an answer. If that doesn't shut them up, you then proceed to step b- you tell them you are very interested in what they have to say and will speak to them later, after you've finished. Usually that stops them.

However, if you have a heckler who just won't "stfu", you then proceed to step c- you turn the audience against them. You tell the heckler that they are being disruptive, and you tell the audience you're sorry for the disruption. The audience then turns on the heckler, usually meting out dissaproving glances and murmurs of "stfu".

Nine times out of ten, this is enough. Social awareness kick in, and the person modifies their behaviour to suit the mood of the public/audience.

However, if you have a professional heckler, they will not be moved by any of the above, and you have to procced to step D- eviction. You ask the person to leave. If they don't go, you summon security and have a person removed.

Of course, depending on what kind of meeting it is, a heckler might find themselves dragged out and beaten. I might expect to be dragged out and beaten lightly if I was heckling at an "unofficial" BNP meeting in the back room of a dodgy boozer, but I don't expect to turn up at a nice, safe, middle class institution and be treated the same way.

I can't quite believe 17th is a copper. A copper's nark, maybe (lol), but a gun toting pot smoking copper..? nah...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Okay, 17th. Here's the deal, he was not 'disrupting a debate.' This event was not a debate. This, I believe, was an event where Senator John Kerry came down to an university in Florida and gave a talk.

Okay, Sir, here is the deal, as I have said I have no sound I am going on what I can see not hear lol.....

Originally Posted by Pathless

He had waited his turn, I believe, and had followed proper procedure.

Refusing to cooperate with the police is how you would define "proper procedure"..... OK I see what kinda guy you are P-nut...

Originally Posted by Pathless

The powers that be did not like his tone, his attitude, and his presentation. They can be seen in the video exerting verbal pressure: "Ask your question," to which he responds, "I am going to ask my question, but I want to inform people first." He challenges Kerry on some points and issues: "Why did you concede the election in 2004 so quickly?" he asks.

I see, I see, I see..... Did they verbally ask him to change his tone attitude and way?

Originally Posted by Pathless

I am providing you with some relevant details, 17th, as I understand that you have no sound on your cpu and therefore haven't really watched the video. You have watched a pantomime and projected onto it your own preconceptions and judgements. It's kind of like watching The Wizard of Oz all stoned or trippin' with the sound turned down and Pink Floyd's album Dark Side of the Moon turned up. Know what I mean? wink wink, nudge nudge

Details are always relevant NO MATTER HOW SMALL! You are very helpful. My thanks. Are you judging that my own preconceptions and judgements are wrong??!?!?!

I have never seen the wizard of oz.... Or listened to Pink Floyd.... No idea what you're talking aboot.

Originally Posted by Pathless

Simply disagree, thank you very much for your authoritative opinion. I know you are a prominent advocate of law and order and drug use.

You'd be suprised....

Originally Posted by Pathless

lolz...

are you referring to Tom Cruise?? Was Tom Cruise arrested for his beliefs? Was he hassled, tasered, forcibliy silenced? Or was he just subject to public murmurings and sneering ridicule for what he believes in? Big difference in my mind, and a much more appropriate response.

kthnx

Oh, oh no, wait up, oh no you DIDN'T! Don't kthx me! I do the kthx'n around here. Ok? Kthx....

No not Cruise... The guy that TV news guy interviewed...

Originally Posted by Pathless

And still: I disagree. You are justifying and blowing off state-sponsored violence.

I respect that... But think it's baloney..... lol. (that is almost as good as my: "I'm not saying I don't trust you, and I'm not saying I do... But, I don't." Saying) If it is sponsored, it has to be for a good cause... SURLEY! Again I fail to see Violence... lol any bones broken? Cuts bruises? Deaths? Could he use his legs ever again? He was just stunned in TEH NAME OF TEH LOR! Imagine If it was freaking Judge Dredd!!$£"£!$ (I AM TEH LOR!!!) He's lucky in all respect... He lived. Anyway, back on track... This isn't violence! This is JUSTICE!

Originally Posted by Francis king

I can't quite believe 17th is a copper. A copper's nark, maybe (lol), but a gun toting pot smoking copper..? nah...

You have no grasp of who I am huh? A freaking Nark lol... Puhleeze...... However I should state... If YOU know something of a crime that is happening or has happened, there is nothing wrong with coming forward to your local police station and reporting what you have seen. Even stopping a patrol car or passing officer... Your name will not be brought up unless you are an eye witness called in court.... Do what's right kiddies.... Call teh lor! Also please do not contact the emergency line (999 911) unless the crime is happening if it is a crime that has happened there are help lines you can call.... Thanks again kids! Remember If you see something wrong, do something right.......

[Tao_Equus]

Shocking!!
Both the story and 17ths grumpy old man part 386394 rant.

You may think you are watched close over the pond there but here it is worse. Every email, every phone call of any kind is digitally recorded and stored for 7 years. We have a rate of one CCTV camera for every 35 people. All our public sector records are accessible without court orders by a wide range of public sector organisations and quangos. These also have the right to see your banking records. 1984 indeed.

Tao

[17th Angel]

Grumpy old man Is how you define the law?.... Oh my, what is going on in this world...

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Grumpy old man Is how you define the law?.... Oh my, what is going on in this world...

lol... bet you have a bit of a charge sheet yourself

[17th Angel]

Clean as a whistle.