Is "spiritual rebirth" necessary for real faith?

I, Brian · 09-18-2003, 10:08 PM

For myself it was 1995. Really, I'd been going downhill for a couple of years, but everything that was still unbroken was broken that year. I finally failed at everything in every way. I spent the summer staring at walls, sometimes crying for no reason. I stole food off friends because I was that broke, and spent most nights drunk.

Pitiful, huh?

As the last couple of ties that kept me to the world were broken I finally realised I had no reason for living, and no justification to remain alive. I gave myself a week to prepare for my own death - just to prove that it was not a spurious decision. (My chosen method was to lie in a warm bath and open a vein as painlessly as possible (how Roman! And long before my active interest in Rome, btw

)).

Anyway, I'm alive because halfway through the week I decided to share my decision with someone - someone who I knew wouldn't tell me to live for other people. She said not to do it - and suddenly the decision literally lifted from me.

That, I guess, was the moment of spiritual rebirth.

What that means in this instance, is that you face life fresh, with all prior assumptions destroyed. You learn life anew - not so much as in you forgot anyone's name - as much as you suddenly have no real inkling on the meaning of anything. Preconceived notions of what meaning anything once had was gone.

This is a fundamental point. I grew up as a child feeling that something was there - sometimes feeling I could communicate with it, and on rare occasions even prayed to something. Teenage years saw me bite a hard Atheism.

Christianity was the only spiritual route I really knew anything of, then, and as I enthralled myself with reductionism I saw the evil of the world and actions of the Christian god. If "God" was real then "God" was Christian, and the Christian "God" was evil.

All that was gone. I didn't know if anything was there anymore. I had to answer the basic questions all over again. In a funny way, it was like exploring the world like a child again.

It all happened slowly, at first - but for 1997 I went into a strict ascetism and found myself going through wave after wave of intense spiritual experiences. Finally, I used the word "God" again.

Point being to this self-indulgent waffle - is a couple of questions:

1. Is this really the "Born Again" experience that the Christian religion mentions as desirable in its followers?

2. Is the destruction of any sense of self really necessary for a true feeling of Divinity?

brucegdc · 09-19-2003, 02:45 AM

At the risk of playing with words, the simple answer to your thread title is no. The answer to your two questions is "darned if I know" to (1) - I'm no expert on Christianity and born again theory. For the second, I think the answer is a solid NO.

I am I. I also have a strong connection to deity. The lack of self is one way to come at the connection, but I don't believe it's the only one. Starting from ground zero and reexamining all of life, the universe and everything will, I believe, tend to reinforce connection to deity, but it's not a necessary condition (nor is it sufficient).

Many paths. Many personal destinations, I guess. Glad your friend talked you out of it - the universe is a better place because you're here.

Baud · 09-19-2003, 05:46 PM

As brucegdc said, I would tend to answre "no" to teh title of the thread. I guess it all depends from the faith and from the individual. I'm sure there are a number of people who have real faith in something they have belived all their live, without any physical or mystical breaking point that would count as spiritual rebirth.

As far as the second question is concerned (I don't have a real clue about the first one), I would ay no. For people like me who believe that deity is immanent, quite the opposite is true. You have to find your true self by breaking away the walls (in Jungian terms, the persona) you build to protect yourself (often from you own gaze), find out who you really are and accept it, the good and the bad, to be able to get in deeper touch with the divine.

Baud

I, Brian · 09-19-2003, 07:06 PM

Actually, on the second point, I think we're talking about the same thing, Baud - though we'll not mention "Comfortably Numb" here.

I think perhaps brucegdc is on the same line of thinking - perhaps my example was a an extreme form of simply losing touch, then finding the connection again?

louis · 05-18-2004, 06:43 PM

1. Is this really the "Born Again" experience that the Christian religion mentions as desirable in its followers?

2. Is the destruction of any sense of self really necessary for a true feeling of Divinity?

From Louis...
These questions sound so alien to me they arouse a
kind of morbid curiosity...
"Born Again" suggests something being stripped down
to it's primordial form - then forced to start over with no memories of it's former existence to help it deal with its
new life. I suppose that's one way to prevent it from
repeating the same mistakes.
But the "destruction of SELF" ? ...NO WAY !!!!
Our "self" or "EGO" is what empowers us to successfuly
construct our material lives - without it, we are vulnerable
to any HERD oriented group that tries to absorb us.
People with no strong ego end up as nothing but followers.
And if the thing they follow turns out to be phony,
they're left with nothing.... not even self-respect !

09-18-2003, 10:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
I, Brian Soul Rebel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Highlands of Scotland Posts: 4,604	Is "spiritual rebirth" necessary for real faith? For myself it was 1995. Really, I'd been going downhill for a couple of years, but everything that was still unbroken was broken that year. I finally failed at everything in every way. I spent the summer staring at walls, sometimes crying for no reason. I stole food off friends because I was that broke, and spent most nights drunk. Pitiful, huh? As the last couple of ties that kept me to the world were broken I finally realised I had no reason for living, and no justification to remain alive. I gave myself a week to prepare for my own death - just to prove that it was not a spurious decision. (My chosen method was to lie in a warm bath and open a vein as painlessly as possible (how Roman! And long before my active interest in Rome, btw )). Anyway, I'm alive because halfway through the week I decided to share my decision with someone - someone who I knew wouldn't tell me to live for other people. She said not to do it - and suddenly the decision literally lifted from me. That, I guess, was the moment of spiritual rebirth. What that means in this instance, is that you face life fresh, with all prior assumptions destroyed. You learn life anew - not so much as in you forgot anyone's name - as much as you suddenly have no real inkling on the meaning of anything. Preconceived notions of what meaning anything once had was gone. This is a fundamental point. I grew up as a child feeling that something was there - sometimes feeling I could communicate with it, and on rare occasions even prayed to something. Teenage years saw me bite a hard Atheism. Christianity was the only spiritual route I really knew anything of, then, and as I enthralled myself with reductionism I saw the evil of the world and actions of the Christian god. If "God" was real then "God" was Christian, and the Christian "God" was evil. All that was gone. I didn't know if anything was there anymore. I had to answer the basic questions all over again. In a funny way, it was like exploring the world like a child again. It all happened slowly, at first - but for 1997 I went into a strict ascetism and found myself going through wave after wave of intense spiritual experiences. Finally, I used the word "God" again. Point being to this self-indulgent waffle - is a couple of questions: 1. Is this really the "Born Again" experience that the Christian religion mentions as desirable in its followers? 2. Is the destruction of any sense of self really necessary for a true feeling of Divinity?

05-18-2004, 06:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
louis General Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 148	born again ? 1. Is this really the "Born Again" experience that the Christian religion mentions as desirable in its followers? 2. Is the destruction of any sense of self really necessary for a true feeling of Divinity? From Louis... These questions sound so alien to me they arouse a kind of morbid curiosity... "Born Again" suggests something being stripped down to it's primordial form - then forced to start over with no memories of it's former existence to help it deal with its new life. I suppose that's one way to prevent it from repeating the same mistakes. But the "destruction of SELF" ? ...NO WAY !!!! Our "self" or "EGO" is what empowers us to successfuly construct our material lives - without it, we are vulnerable to any HERD oriented group that tries to absorb us. People with no strong ego end up as nothing but followers. And if the thing they follow turns out to be phony, they're left with nothing.... not even self-respect !

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09-19-2003, 02:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
brucegdc Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 415	At the risk of playing with words, the simple answer to your thread title is no. The answer to your two questions is "darned if I know" to (1) - I'm no expert on Christianity and born again theory. For the second, I think the answer is a solid NO. I am I. I also have a strong connection to deity. The lack of self is one way to come at the connection, but I don't believe it's the only one. Starting from ground zero and reexamining all of life, the universe and everything will, I believe, tend to reinforce connection to deity, but it's not a necessary condition (nor is it sufficient). Many paths. Many personal destinations, I guess. Glad your friend talked you out of it - the universe is a better place because you're here.

09-19-2003, 05:46 PM	#3 (permalink)
Baud Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toulouse, France Posts: 71	As brucegdc said, I would tend to answre "no" to teh title of the thread. I guess it all depends from the faith and from the individual. I'm sure there are a number of people who have real faith in something they have belived all their live, without any physical or mystical breaking point that would count as spiritual rebirth. As far as the second question is concerned (I don't have a real clue about the first one), I would ay no. For people like me who believe that deity is immanent, quite the opposite is true. You have to find your true self by breaking away the walls (in Jungian terms, the persona) you build to protect yourself (often from you own gaze), find out who you really are and accept it, the good and the bad, to be able to get in deeper touch with the divine. Baud

09-19-2003, 07:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
I, Brian Soul Rebel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Highlands of Scotland Posts: 4,604	Actually, on the second point, I think we're talking about the same thing, Baud - though we'll not mention "Comfortably Numb" here. I think perhaps brucegdc is on the same line of thinking - perhaps my example was a an extreme form of simply losing touch, then finding the connection again?