Is Prophecy dead?

[benOddo]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There's a general perception in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that prophecy is effectively dead - that all that required saying is said.

However, is this an interpretation supported directly by scripture - or is this a general assertion from events and human developments?

Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?

A general discussion question.

Brian,

Then what a the Gifts for? Or the Comforter?

Do we nullify what Jesus promised, with general perceptions?

Do you truly believe, revelation to man is only through the Head of the churches on earth?

Or is it given to man or men, in the end times, before the return of Christ our King.?

Would you doubt the prophecy of Daniels Seventy-sevens, if it could apply in more than the general precieved way.? If it could show the 70 sevens in a symbolic week, and symbolic month, and a period of years, and even in a period of Sabbath years. Where in each case stated, the prophecy would apply, and scripture would attest to.

That even the early church fathers after 85-90 A.D. knew of and followed to the point of death. They knew the appointed times of God! The church over time through what ever means, lost sight of the truth that the Eastern churches knew, followed, and taught. But, by the time of the Reformation, and the churches that grew out of it, by then had long lost sight of it. The dogma and decrees of the western church, in it's quest for power, over people and kings, obscured the truth even more.

We could search Scriptures from beginning to end, and not see it, it is only through prayer, the gift of understanding from the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, that truth is revealed. It is made more firm, with understanding of world history, church history, knowing and reading, Greek, and Hebrew aids our understanding. But God's Word, with the help of His Holy Spirit, in prayer is sufficent for most believing Christians.

Modern critics of the Bible, both Old and New Testament critics, try to late date everything, or call the books myth, and wish to disprove God's word with science, these agnostics and atheists by their own thoughts and words, heap coals apon their own heads.


Your question, brought to mind the 95th Psalm, verse 7, for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care.
Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.........

Our Lord Jesus, knows our hearts, if we remain in him, he will remain in us, and we will hear his voice. As we await his return, we know from his Word, everything must be fullfilled from the Law, the Psalms, and Prophets, even though it's been 2000 years, we pray we are the generation that sees his return. Where through the Prophets, we decern the appointed times of God. In verse 10, For forty years, and from Daniel, we know it been 1,966 years, (where 2000 is 40 x 50) and from scripture we know the forty years refered to here, are the 40 (38 yrs.) after the first Passover, elsewhere we know that at the start of Christ's ministry, he was in the wilderness for forty days, and now through Daniel's sevens, a period of forty Jubilee weeks, before the 70th week. The 69th week is in the year 2044, only 40 years away. Or 2000 less 1966 is 34! years.

Peace, Praise God!

ben Oddo

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There's a general perception in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that prophecy is effectively dead - that all that required saying is said.

However, is this an interpretation supported directly by scripture - or is this a general assertion from events and human developments?

Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?

A general discussion question.

Dear Brian,


you may or may not be aware...

In the 1800's the world was buzzing with expectation that the end times was at hand. dozens of theologians came to the conclusion that the promised Messiah would arrive in 1843-44. Thousands of people sold all of their belongings and waited on hilltops for Christ to descend on clouds with power and glory. When nothing visible happened, they revised the date several times. What they didn't realize was that history was repeating itself once again. Prophecies were being fulfilled , just not in the way they expected. They were expecting prophecies to be fulfilled literally, just as the Pharisees had done at the time of Christ's first coming.


The Baha'i Faith makes the assertion that prophecies of all of the worlds great religions have been fulfilled with the coming of the Bab (the Gate) and Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God).

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end…” Daniel 12:4


“…the things hidden in the Books of God have been revealed, and that whatsoever hath been recorded by Thy Messengers in the sacred Scriptures hath been fulfilled.” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 163

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him…” Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, pg 183

“Verily I say, in this most mighty Revelation, all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation. Thus counselleth you your Lord, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds.” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 340



“…To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart…” Psalms 95:7-8



“Verily I say, this is the Day in which mankind can behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One. The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance hath been lifted up upon men. It behoveth every man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind, on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission, and the tokens of His glory.
Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day…” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 10



“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26



“The Comforter Whose advent all the scriptures have promised is now come that He may reveal unto you all knowledge and wisdom. Seek Him over the entire surface of the earth, haply ye may find Him.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh pg. 104-5


“These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs; but the time cometh, when I shall not more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.” John 16:25


“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now…” John 16:12


“…Say Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’…” Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-í-Aqdás

“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths…” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 136


This claim is so great it is either entirely true or entirely false. It is each individuals responsibility to investigate for him/herself the validity of such a claim.


Approximately 6 million people from every nationality, religion, race have embraced this claim to be true and are working together to build God's Kingdom on Earth, in fulfillment of this prophecy...As the Lord's prayer states, "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven". This community has been established over the last 160 years.

http://www.bahai.org/ (The official website of the Baha'i World)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” Isaiah 2:2

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” Isaiah 35:1-2

Mt. Carmel was once barren and desert like, but since Baha'u'llah walked there it has been transformed into beautiful gardens. It is also the World Center of the Baha'i Faith.

http://www.bahaiworldnews.org/terraces/opening.en.html

http://www.satw.org/phxwinners.asp (The Baha'i Gardens have recently been acknowledged for their beauty.)


Now more than ever before mankind has a direct connection to God, but it is up to us to fulfill our end of the bargain.


"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:” Isaiah 55:6



“…unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time…” Hebrews 9:28



“…This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 136

So in answer to your questions...God has never left us, nor will he. Every letter of every prophecy will be fulfilled in the fullness of time, but not necessarily according to our expectations.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.” Isaiah 55:8



“Behold how contrary are the ways of the Manifestations of God, as ordained by the King of creation, to the ways and desires of men!” Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab'i'Iqán pg. 57


Baha'i's believe that the Books have been unsealed by Baha'u'llah. All of the questions that have plagued mankind have been answered.

• IMHO This may explain why there is this feeling you speak of that prophecy is dead, if the prophecies of all previous dispensations have been fulfilled by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, the animating force behind it has been stilled in that regard, now the power of the Almighty is directed to establishing His Kingdom.

I hope I've given you some food for thought.

If you would like to ask any questions, I will do my best to locate quotes from the writings that will answer them.

Sorry, if I got long winded there.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

If a man talks about God and how to live peaceably and lovably among men, and himself living frugally and in all simplicity: he's my prophet.

Hi Susma,

Baha'u'llah was imprisoned and exiled for 40 years. He lived in the utmost poverty. And the entire 40 years of His mission he taught us how to live in peace and harmony with one another. He never waivered. He was known as the Father of the poor. Check it out... www.bahai.org If you meant what you said above ...he's your prophet. ;-)

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[benOddo]

Peace!

Remember Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, untill heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by an means disappear from the Law untill everything is accomplished". Matt. 5:17-18

I also would not put much faith, in non-canonical writtings, don't forget why John wrote Revelations. It is more a warning against the Western Church of John's time then we sometimes like to admit. These writtings were more to build up the Roman church, to validate their own positions and orthrodoxy in the West. What was the Easter Controversy? and the martydom of Polycarp and Polycreates, why the Great Schism?, How the Christian Church was treated from 32AD to 313 AD. (the Edict of Toleration, Sunday was made the day of rest, by Constantine whom became a Christian, but was only baptized on his death bed.)

So has the 4th Commandment been done away with, No! Jesus observed it before the cross, and for over forty days after the Resurrection Day that was called the Lords Sabbath Day, a Special Sabbath, when the next day started at twilight between the evenings, this was the start of Sunday not as a fast, but as a feast day, a day of joy. Where the 14th day Sabbath of Passover, was also a special Sabbath, for the Jew a day of feast, for the Christians a fast day.
It was the only two Special Sabbath days the early church observed each year, at twilight of the 14th day and three days after the Passover feast, this was why Polycarp was martyred.
The early church fathers rested on the Sabbaths, and at twilight after the Sabbath was over, they met again it was evening (the start of the next week, called Sunday or 1st day, Barnabas called it the eight day)

Consider this for the moment, the Roman State and its religion, the Jewish state and it's religion, from the Maccabene times, the Jews had an Alliance with Rome, to keep the Greeks at bay. This alliance afforded the Jews, freedom of religion, Rome had it's Gods, some adopted from the Greek, over time. The Romans did not reconize the Christians, or one God, let alone the Son of God Jesus. It was not untill Constantine, that Christians found relief, and religious freedom. By then the Sunday was made into the REST day. But what was this really about? It was the work week and world trade, more than religious observance.

Rome made sure, it held sway over the world. It came to a point even the Greek Church split off from Rome. The apostle John foreseen this early on, his Revelation warns the churches, and it is clear what it means.
The Church in Rome was the only one against Revelations of John, being in the canon of scriptures.
Think! What is the one lie, Rome has wanted the world to believe, that the early church was not a part to. Is that Christ was Crucified on the 6th day (Friday) and Resurrected on Sunday.
What did Jesus say the sign, would be? The sign of Jonah! and the truth of Daniels Seventy Sevens, or Seventy Weeks, shortened as even the Latin text reads. The bishops of Rome over looked Daniels Seventy sevens, they use historic records, the Julian calandar month of April, 31 A.D. Where the first day of the month, starts on the 1st day of the week, or Sunday, and the 13th day, Preperation day, and the 14th day is a Sat./Sabbath (thought to be the Passover)

But in 31 A.D. it was the Jewish year 3791 CE, the month of Nisan or as God decreed the month of Abib. (Ex. 12) Jesus was our Lamb, the Lamb of God, the message given to Daniel was and is still true. The Jewish month given as a sign, the month of Abib/Nisan, started when the watchmen of the Sanhedrin, first seen the New moon,(Rosh Chodesh) at the twilight between the two evenings of the 11th and 12th days of April, 31 (Julian) on the 5th day of the week, the Rosh Chodesh of Nisan a Thursday.
Even Josephus records the fact, that was handed down from father to son, that during the whole time of the building of Herods temple, it did not rain during the daytime, but only at night.
(Antig. 15.11.7-{425}) I'm sure if there was rain at night, there were clouds at night. And that truly is and was a manifestation of God.

Making the Sabbath days of the Feasts High Holy days fall on the 10th day, 14th day, 17th day, and the 15th,21st, 28th days, the weeks of counting for Penecost according to the Law. Where the regular Sabbaths of the month were, 3rd, 24th, the 10th being the Special Sabbath, the 17th the Sabbath of Sheaf Waving, of new grain either barley or wheat, done by the priest at the start of the Sabbath.

Then to see, what took place during the Passion Week, and the month sign from Daniel, we must remember the regulations for the Feasts.
(As a study of this, take afew sheets of note paper or 5x7 cards, number them for the days of the month, and write for each day from the Gospels as they apply for each day, place them up on the wall or cork board, in the order of the Jewish month, Nisan)

From Ex. 12:1-14 The first month is given.
The regulations for the Passover, Ex. 12: 43-51, 13:4, 14:4, 34:18,19,21,25-28. Lev. 23:5; Nu 9:1-14, 28:16; Dt. 16:1-3a, 4b-7

Unleavened Bread, Ex. 12:15-20; 13:3-10; 23:15; 34:18; Lev.23:6-8; Nu 28:17-25; Dt 16:3b, 4a, 8

Firstfruits, Lev 23:9-14


Who's day is it? The roman day started at sun rise, say 6am , the third hour at 9am, 6th hr, at noon. The week started with Solis day ended with Saturns day.

The Hebrew day, started from twilight (dusk) darkness 12 hours night, to twilight (dawn) light of the Sun 12 hours, regarding the Creation days from first being dark and then light.
The weekdays were just numbered, 1-7th, it is assumed the Creation month started on Sunday (1st day of the week) where all the rest days are 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th.
(like the month of Feb. 2004 for example)

Now we all know where we get the A.D. years (?) from, why Rome and a Pope, (I won't go it to that here.) But because of it we have the B.C. years, but to see the month of Abib, which God appointed, as the first month. The Hebrew counting of years, were dated from the Exodus, counted back to the Creation, by the first century leaders, and coincide with the calendars we have used, first with the Julian, and Gregorian (another decree from Rome) Anyway the year 2004 is 5764 CE, and the year 606 BC is 3154 CE, and 6BC is 3754 CE.
By using the CE years, a time line graph can easily show the events of history, where B.C. and A.D. can be referanced to.

Daniel knew from scriptures, the years of kings and the accounts of the Patriarch's and could of dated the Hebrew calendar years, just as easily as Hillel did. He was carried off to Babylon at the age of thirteen, was taught the knowledge of the land, which being at the cross roads of the trade routes, would of learned of the latest theorys, of say, Meton, let alone the mathematics of Babylon. He was, because of his knowledge, a man of high position, and highly esteem not only by Nebuchadnezzar, but by God Almighty. Because he was a devout Hebrew (read his prayer, Da.9:4-19) The whole prayer is about not keeping the Sabbaths, the Sabbath years, even though Sabbath is not mentioned once, but we all know that was the reason.
At the start of Chapter 9, Daniel states; It's the first year of Darius, and he knows from books and Jeremiah the Word of the Lord, said seventy years must pass. Daniel was not the only 80 year old man in Babylon, waiting for these 70 years to pass. Ezra and Nehemiah record the decrees and return, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the Temple, and were contemporaries. (see. 2 Chron. 36:20-23)

The first year of Darius, in 539 BC/3221 CE is Daniels 80th year, when he was taken to Babylon 67 years prior he was thirteen years old, in the year 3154CE/606BC. The 70 years told to Jeremiah were for the people, Daniels 70, is for the Temple, from 3174CE to 3244CE/516BC
The Vision:
ver.24, Seventy 'sevens'
ver.25, seven 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens'
ver.26, After sixty-two 'sevens'
ver.27, one 'seven' in the middle of the 'seven'

The seventy spoken of in the Hebrew, mean more than one, or mulitiple's (shibiym-{shib'eem} shavuim, of shib'ah, shib-aw' or seven, a week, sh bu'ah,-sheb-oo-aw'

These sevens are symbolic of weeks, months and years, for the past, present, and future senses of Daniel, of Jesus Christ, of the Temple and Jerusalem, the Decrees of Men, and Commands of God and His apponted times.

Untill the Anointed one comes, there are sixty-two sevens and seven sevens, since there are two 62 sevens, and in the sense of duelality two seven sevens, that would be two periods of 7x7=49 years or 98 years, plus 62x7 = 434 years, which total 532 years to the Birth of the Anointed One, 539 BC/3221CE to 7BC/3753CE. The angel Gabriel spoke with Mary, and Joseph, Jesus was born in 6BC, the order by Herod to kill all babies 2 years old and younger was given, Joseph and Mary took Jesus to Egypt, Herod died in 4BC, just after an eclispe of the moon, fixed at March 12-13, 4BC, just before Passover, 14th of Nisan, and fell on April 4th, 4BC. The symbolic month of Nisan 31AD, was determined by the first new moon after the spring equinox, the 25th day of April was the Passover that year. The attempt by Rome, to date the Birth of Christ, has been a farce and blasphemy, for all these years.

In 539BC it was 3 1/2 years, for Daniel, untill the 70 year of Jeremiahs prophecy and the fall of Babylon and the first decree of Cyrus king of Persia, (Ezra 1:2-4)and the first return,in 535BC work starts, on the Temple Altar, which the men of the Trans-Euphrates oppose, they write to king Artaxerxes, he in turn issues a decree to stop work on the temple, but the prophets and leaders still work on the walls and trench. The men of Trans-Euphrates seeing the work in progress, ask why, they then write to king Darius, after a search of records, the decree of Cyrus is found and Darius issues a decree to rebuild in 520BC, this all takes place in the approximate middle of the 49 years, first half of 98 years, the Temple is completed in 516 BC, in the month of Adar, on the 3rd day. On the 14th day of the next month Abib/Nisan, Passover is celebrated.
Ezra's second return, in the middle of the 2nd half of the 98 years/sevens, or second 49 year period, with the consecrated Silver, Gold, and Bronze for the Temple, from the 9th thru 12th day of Nisan they rested, and set out on the 12th from Ahava Canal, and reached Jerusalem by the 1st day of the fifth month of Ab, 458BC. From 520BC to 458BC, was 62 years/sevens, in the middle of the 98 sevens. But also consider that these two periods of forty nine years, they could not observe the 50th (Jubilee years) but Praise God Almighty! Look and consider, in the middle of the 98 sevens, On the 13th day of the 12th month Adar, an edict from king Xerxes, and Queen Esther is carried out on the 13th, 14th days, and 15th day, a day of resting, feasting and joy.

After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One, would confirm a covanant, be cut off, in the middle of the seven;

From 7BC/3753 to 70AD/ 3830 is seventy seven years/sevens, in the middle a week of seven years, in the middle of the week, a year appointed by God. The middle year 31AD/3791CE, 3 1/2 years earlier was 28 AD/3788CE (from 539BC/3221CE it was, 70 + 490 + 7 = 567 sevens/years. Half of 77 is 38.5 or 38 civil years before and after one Holy year/seven, and 38 civil years after. (the years of rebelion)
In the middle of the Civil year 31AD, the 7th month Nisan/Abib, the first month of your year (Sacred appointed by God) at His Appointed Time.

A week of Seventy, in the middle of the seven, the fourth days of the month (Wednesdays)
(Look at your calendar today Jan, 2004)
In the middle of the weeks, count the days 7+ 14+ 21+ 28 = ?
After the weeks of sixty-two, count the Mondays, 5+ 12+ 19+ 26=?
Now consider the 13+ 14+ 15 =? Take a Hi-liter and color them in, with the days of 70.
forty-two from seventy is 28. the first year of the seven year week. that Jesus started his ministry of 3 1/2 years. The passion week, the 10th day was a Sabbath, the 9th day they made preparations, for the Feast, they had chosen a year old lamb, to hold for four days according to the Law, they had the Last Supper in the evening after the Sabbath, after supper they went to Gethsemane at Mount of Olives at twilight the start of the first day of the week, The Lamb of God was betrayed, Jesus was taken first to Annas the high priest, then to the Sanhedrin high priest, Caiaphas, early the next morning they took Jesus to Pilate, he questioned Jesus, learning Jesus was Galilean, Pilate sent him to Herod Antipas, after being questioned a third time, Jesus was ridiculed and mocked, the soldiers put an elegant robe on Jesus, and Herod Antipas sends Jesus back to Pilate

Let's consider the first Exile, as the last half of the Week 70 X 50 =? a time, a times and a half a time. the Commands of God, the giving of the Law. the 38 years/sevens of rebelion,
the counting of the Sabbath years, the 1400 years/sevens from Joshua in 1406BC/2354CE, to the Birth of Jesus is 28 Sevens, in 6 BC/3754CE ( 28 x 50= 1400)

Is prophecy dead? If what the prophets proclaimed, are yet to be fullfilled, then the prophecy is still in effect. In 2 Chron. 36:15-16, the prophets and messengers God sent, even then were ignored.
Gabriel was sent to Daniel, and even today, the message is refuted, but it's still in effect. And is as sure as all of God's appointed times are. Wheather we can see it or not, But if we read it today, and don't understand it, we are to ask in Jesus's name, and we are given insight, into what is ment. And the Good News, then as now, first to the Jew, and to the Gentile, is "Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand."

Again peace,
ben Oddo

[9Harmony]

Hi Ben,

Looks like you've invested alot of time into this. This topic is way outside of my realm of expertise, but...

If your beginning date is off though it will change the whole outcome. Here is a brief outline from the Baha'i perspective...

"Genesis vii.11 -- The waters of the flood came on the 17th day of the second month.
Genesis viii.4 -- The waters abated and ceased on the 17th day of the seventh month.
Genesis vii.24: -- The waters prevailed upon the earth 150 days.

From the 17th day of the SECOND month until the 17th day of the SEVENTH month there were exactly FIVE months. These five months took exactly 150 days, indicating that each month lasted 30 days. There are other examples like this and scholars agree that they all point to a biblical year of 360 days (12months x 30days).

The next important point is that one day is one year! This too is accepted by scholars based on various passages, such as: -

Eze 4:6 "I have appointed thee each day for a year."

Numbers 13:34 "...After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year"

OK! To understand any of the biblical time prophecies you have to atleast be familiar with these two points. You can see now how clearly it applies to Christ with the following prophecy from Daniel 9 (referring to the coming Messiah / Christ): -

Da 9:24
SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that FROM THE GOING FORTH OF THE COMMANDMENT TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Da 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks SHALL MESSIAH BE CUT OFF...

Basically, Daniel prophesises that from the "going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusael" until the Messiah is "cut off" will be 70 weeks. This 70 week period is broken down further in 9:25-27 into 62 weeks, 7 weeks and 1 week; but this is too much detail for now.

Using the rules I described earlier, we can see that 70 weeks is the same as 70 x 7 days = 490 days. Using the "day for a year" rule this is 490 years.

In the year 457BC, King Artaxerxes issued a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, beginning the 70 week / 490 year period. EXACTLY 490 YEARS LATER, IN 34AD - THE MESSIAH (Christ) WAS CUT OFF / CRUCIFIED!!!!! Remarkable! This is one of the main proofs of Christ cited by the Christian scholars. Using the same rules consider how the 2300 day period in Daniel 8 ended in 1844AD (-457BC + 2300 = 1844); that's why so many people were expecting Christ that year! The 1260 year period in Revelation 11 also ended in 1844AD! In fact, they all pretty much did!" (copied from another forum)

So according to our perception this has already occurred and we have access to all of the historical records to show that something remarkable did indeed happen in 1844. May I suggest that while you're waiting to see if your figures are correct in 40 years, you investigate the claims of One who claimed in no uncertain terms that He is the one we have been waiting for. “…Say Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’…” Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-í-Aqdás

God indeed works in mysterious ways.

http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/IQA/IQA-1.html

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[I, Brian]

The original post was merely a way of evoking discussion.

However...playing the numbers game with Daniel isn't a recommended way to prove or disprove anything...other than if you add and subtract numbers together, you end up with other numbers.

I've seen more interpretations of Daniel than you can shake a proverbial stick at, all of them hopeful, all of them forced to prove a particular interpretation...and not a single consensus agreement between any of them...other than if you add and subtract numbers you end up with different numbers.

And then we have in our membership the scholar of Hebrew and Mathematics, Bob X, who has many written various crushing analyses of the Book of Daniel.

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

The original post was merely a way of evoking discussion.

However...playing the numbers game with Daniel isn't a recommended way to prove or disprove anything...other than if you add and subtract numbers together, you end up with other numbers.

I've seen more interpretations of Daniel than you can shake a proverbial stick at, all of them hopeful, all of them forced to prove a particular interpretation...and not a single consensus agreement between any of them...other than if you add and subtract numbers you end up with different numbers.

And then we have in our membership the scholar of Hebrew and Mathematics, Bob X, who has many written various crushing analyses of the Book of Daniel.

Hi Brian,

I understand what you are saying.

But...

What if the prophetic utterances of all of the past religions have already been fulfilled. But because of the clouds of ignorance, and the veils of human knowledge, we are bereft of the Immortal Face. If we choose to turn away and not investigate this claim, we are not fulfilling our obligation "...unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time..." Hebrews 9:28

If, One comes and states unequivocally that He is the Promised One, He is here to establish God's Kingdom. Do we not owe it to ourselves to investigate the proofs of His life and teachings?

Baha'u'llah spent 40 years in exile and imprisonment for His teachings. It is the best opportunity modern man has ever had to study the background of a religion forming from the beginning. We have actual writings in Baha'u'llah's own hand. We have access to historical documents of the prevailing culture.

I am just stating that if what I'm proposing is in fact true. It is every individuals responsibility to investigate it for themselves. The evidence is out there, and it's abundant.

I just found this site which has quotes addressing numerous topics layed out in a user friendly way. http://bahaitext.info/

Do not take my word for it. Seek and ye shall find.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[I, Brian]

9Harmony, as this is an interfaith site it remains essential that this place is run from a neutral perspective. In essence my post above was about blunting what could otherwise be seen as dangerously close to proselytising.

We all have our individual paths, and we all make individual choices regarding how we step upon such paths. Those paths remain personal, though.

It is not for CR to be seen to recommend anyone one path, nor endorse any one individual's opinions as spiritual truth. The membership here represents a sphere of perceptions, and I think you will find that everyone has their own informed decisions to make according to the path of their perceptions.

In short, it is not in the well-being of CR to allow anything construed as proselytising. Please take note.

[9Harmony]

Dear Brian,

I apologize, my enthusiasm may have gotten the best of me.

I do always try to note in my posts that no one should rely on what another person tells them, it is each individual's responsibility to investigate the truth for themselves.

I only post in reply to others questions and if I can give my perspective which may be useful, I will. In response to Ben's post, I was just trying to show that there is other trains of thought in that arena. This being a comparative religions forum, I assumed I was within the bounds of what was acceptable.

Again, I apologize, it is not my intention to offend. I will be more cautious from now on.

Thank you for providing this forum.

Loving Greetings, Harmony






"What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This "oppression" is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error." Kitab-i-Iqan, p 31

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

9Harmony, as this is an interfaith site it remains essential that this place is run from a neutral perspective. In essence my post above was about blunting what could otherwise be seen as dangerously close to proselytising.

We all have our individual paths, and we all make individual choices regarding how we step upon such paths. Those paths remain personal, though.

It is not for CR to be seen to recommend anyone one path, nor endorse any one individual's opinions as spiritual truth. The membership here represents a sphere of perceptions, and I think you will find that everyone has their own informed decisions to make according to the path of their perceptions.

In short, it is not in the well-being of CR to allow anything construed as proselytising. Please take note.

The way I see it, Comparative Religion forum is like a marketplace where people belonging to various religions display their wares which are their respective religions.

The fact of displaying wares is already some kind of proselytizing, but not proselytizing in the sense of aggressive marketing.

Just like in a market there are buyers and sellers but the same people are prospective buyers and prospective sellers. So a lot of mutual examination of each other's wares is carried on by members of the market.

And it is an inescapable fact that in the process of mutual examination of each other's religions, a poster adherent of one religion can see his religion to be superor or inferior to others, on the basis of different criteria like: how long is the history of the religion, how the religion treats women, what are its attitudes towards war and violence, what is its reward in the afterlife.

Are there posters here who don't belong to any religion? I think I am one. I believe in God, and little else. But I can join anyone in his religion as regards external observances. And what do I hope to achieve here? Several things, but the most important is to see whether there are and how many people are like me here in this forum.

I am not into hard proselytizing, but I think I would like to influence people here so that they will be like me, a believer in God but no member of any religion. In that sense I am into some kind of proselytizing, but hopefully not the hard proselytization disallowed by the administrator.

Susma Rio Sep

[9Harmony]

The Daniel references in my post were authored by Ocean Drop taken from the Contender Ministries forum. My apologies!

[I, Brian]

9Harmony, enthusiasm is easily excused, but sometimes over-enthusiasm can become a little detrimental to a wider community.

No harm done - just a little note, that's all.

[Susma Rio Sep]

What is it to proselytize?

In the Protestant evangelical context, and correct if I am wrong, it means to evangelize, to bring people to accept Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior.

In the Catholic context, it means to convert people to be members of the Roman Catholic Church -- not enough just to become believers in Jesus Christ.

Brian says that proselytizing is not allowed in this forum. I would like to make a distinction between soft proselytizing and hard proselytizing.

What is soft and what is hard. I think Harmony in a way was into hard proselytizing, because of his shrill enthusiasm. How do I know when someone is into shrill enthusiasm? In this forum from the way he writes his posts.

How do I know that a poster is into soft proselytizing? From his writing also, that does not reach the decibel of shrill enthusiasm.

For me it is absolutely all right for posters here to proselytize however shrill they care and want to. But Brian says no. So it's no.

When people proselytize their religion then we really get to know their doctrines and observances in a manner to judge them whether they are deserving of our acceptance.

It's like a product being marketed vigorously; but you have to be a critical buyer, otherwise you might end up buying something not as advertised or not exactly what you want.

My suggestion here is that if anyone feels like proselytizing here, just make sure you don't reach shrill enthusiasm pitch and volume. And I am inclined to suspect that Brian would not mind that kind of proselytization.*

There are people who I think are into proselytization without maybe their knowing it, but not into the shrill enthusiasm type. Read the posts of Vaj and Art, maybe without their knowing it they are into proselytizing. And I am getting to be more and more receptive to their religious ideas and observances. But I don't think I will ever be a label bearing member of Vaj's kind of Buddhism or Art's Baha'i.

Susma Rio Sep

*Brian is the owner and operator of this forum; so everything we do here is on the indulgence of Brian. Yet, I would like to commend Brian for being indulgently tolerant of my posts here, which I think at times are outspoken -- if I may flatter myself. I think Brian would not want to see in posters here a flock of sheep.

[bananabrain]

i believe strongly in *dialogue*. i also believe that dialogue is qualitatively different from proselytisation. now, admittedly, this is an easy stance for me to take, as my own religion prohibits evangelisation, proselytisation, missionarising, or whatever you want to call it. this suits me just fine, because i believe that diversity is a strength and the desire to make other people do things your way is simply a cloak for insecurity. you're not sure you're doing the right thing, but you'll feel a lot better about it if a lot of other people do it as well. it takes courage to be the "awkward squad".

for me, dialogue means that it is important to focus on *dispelling ignorance* - this means being open about what you believe, honest about the challenging/difficult bits and always assuming your own ignorance about the beliefs of others. i would compare this to corporate social responsibility rather than marketing - the benefit is *systemic*, in that the more you know, the less you assume, the less you are frightened of "the other".

this does not, naturally, preclude robust rebuttals of ignorant, uninformed generalisations about things which you know about better than the generaliser. from my perspective, people think they know more about judaism than they generally do. the word "judeo-christian" is largely responsible for this, giving people the idea that judaism is basically christianity minus jesus, which is so far from the truth that it couldn't be seen with a telescope. in fact, judaism is far closer to islam - both have a legal paradigm, both are vulnerable to a tyranny of the "more strictly pious than thou", the love of G!D through the qualities of language, a mainstream (if elitist) mystical tradition and so on. perhaps if more people understood this, they might think of judaism as less of a western/european religion and more of a middle-eastern religion - one that sits squarely between west and east and has conversations in common with both.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

On the issue of dialogue - extremely soon I'm going to re-order the boards so that specific faiths can be addressed much more particularly. There will almost certainly be a board for the discussion of Judaism, and another one for Bahai. That way interested persons can ask questions and invite dialogue on specific issues of Faith in what I hope should be a more free and open channel for dialogue.

Lumping so many Faiths in one board I think has become a little crushing for those who wish to speak more freely, and a little confusing for those who would like to see specific issues of specific Faiths addressed. Probably will do it within the next seven days.