Is Jesus' Resurrection a Fact-Event?

[RubySera_Martin]

Leastone, I have no problem if you wish to hold these beliefs. Like I said, I can see that you have very good reason to hold them. My only request would be that you extend the same rights and privileges to those of us who do not hold them.

You may remember the doctor I mentioned who subjected me to spiritual abuse in his office via evangelization? You explained why he did it and you suggested I had no right to call it abuse. That is not okay for you to say. Those of us who do not accept your beliefs have a right not to be subjected to evangelization.

Manipulating a person to share personal beliefs they do not wish to share is unprofessional. Judging a person for having those beliefs is abuse. The whole thing put together feels like rape just as much as physical rape. A person has a right not to be subjected to such treatment regardless of their beliefs. So please, do not further pressure me or wil or anyone else to agree with your beliefs. After all, fair is fair.

Addition:

originally posted by leastone:

Besides, Christian persecution rarely, if ever, came as the result of zealots tackling, and waging war against, the establishment. Rather, it was the establishment seeking to destroy it, no matter where it fled, or where it hid.

Not sure what you are saying. You seem to overlook the fact that for many centuries Christianity WAS the establishment. And as such, it killed many people for disagreeing with them. My ancestors, the Anapaptists, were martyred in large numbers in Europe by the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Zwinglian churches from the 16th century on. Some of this persecution was also imposed by the Puritans in New England.

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by leastone

I understand what y'all are saying to me. Thank you.

I would, however, point to the fact, as confirmed by some here, that Jesus' teachings were not really new, and therefore could not be the prime motivation that made the wannabe martyrs so zealous.

And if it were not the teachings, or the death, what was it?

Just a memory of a person?

And if it were just a massive con job, or very successful (sales) presentation, I am sure that any Madison Avenue image consultancy would have all its efforts based on a careful study of the modus operandi of those first disciples.

Hello Learner, your argument reminds me of apolegetics ala Josh Mcdowell, you have a point, but your argument requires one to place a lot of faith in the accuracy of the biblical accounts.
I do like some of the views you shared on the core spiritual identity of christians, however the crucifiction and resurrection never had a resonance with me, I accepted them as creeds, I never had much of a revelational understanding of them.
My gut feeling is that deep down you are not really convinced about the event of the resurrection, I am not saying you shouldn't believe in it, I am just wondering why you try so hard to defend it.

Alvaro

[leastone]

Dear Caimanson,

I was not aware that I was desperately defending the resurrection due to a deep-seated uncertainty about it---so I'll consider that and reflect on that some more.

I thought I was simply expressing my current understanding about the topic of the thread. As you seem to have an appreciation for my core beliefs about our spiritual nature, I must say that I cannot just dismiss the resurrection accounts as incompatible with our growing understanding of the spirit being and its continued existence after "death".

I was certainly not aware that I was "evangelizing." So, having once again been judged as guilty of "spiritual abuse," and openly accused of raping Ruby, I will go to the roof of this house and contemplate the stars (see How to Respond to a Contentious Spirit), in consideration of just walking out and shaking the dust off my African sandals.

I appreciate the great intellect I've encountered on this forum, and in view of the fact that some have already written thousands of posts, I think it would be appropriate for me to rather read (and learn), than to write. I have truly been humbled by my experience here. Thanks to all.

Respectfully,

Learner

[RubySera_Martin]

openly accused of raping Ruby,

Sorry, leastone, I think there is a misunderstanding. I don't remember ever accusing you of such a thing or even feeling I had a reason to do so. My sincere apologies if anything I said put you on that impression. My memory is imperfect, so if you can find proof I am willing to look at it. But otherwise, I don't think I intentionally accused you of such a thing.

Ruby

[leastone]

Dear Everyone in Christ,

Please allow me this indulgence.
While writing my previous post, I ran a hot bath. When I left the computer, as per habit I randomly selected a book from the shelf to read from---to soak in. I opened on this very paragraph (italics mine):
“Respectful listening and dialogue are impossible unless I can give up my self-preoccupation and self-centeredness. If I hear only my own voice, I am not ready for full participation in the life of my community. My vow of obedience is a promise to develop a sensitivity for the voice of the community as potentially the voice of the Holy Spirit. Life in community is consequently most rich when every member is able to listen to the voice of every other member as a possible unique manifestation of the voice of the Lord. A truly obedient community will therefore foster the possibility of respectful dialogue among its members in regard to those matters that belong radically and fundamentally to the essence of the religious life form itself as lived in the concrete situation of a specific community. In respectful dialogue the voice of the Lord may reveal itself.”
The section I read ends with the following:
“Christian obedience thus prevents narrow fixation on my own one-sided views under the pretense that they come directly from the Holy Spirit. The awareness that the holy spirit may speak in others as well as myself makes me listen all the more to fellow religious and cultural participants and keeps me free, flexible and detached in my opinions. While Christian obedience encourages me to grow in initiative, it also protects me from a one-sided fanatical insistence that only my insights should be actualized in reality.”
I simply share this, my experience, to show forth the goodness of the Lord Who is the Spirit. I know I am never not in His presence. What I have to cultivate, though, is an ever-present awareness that I am in His Presence; learn to be present to His presence, and of course, follow His direction.
I present the rest of the segment for those who have the time and interest to read it. The relevance and correspondence to a discussion community is obvious.
Thank you.
Learner.

In regard to the living of the fundamental structures of religious life, the listening of all to all is the basis of true solidarity in the religious community. Community life reaches its optimal beauty and efficacy in Christ when everyone at times can contribute to the relaxed living of individual religious life and to the personal unfolding of each (member). To be sure, the expression of personal insight and feeling may result in a variety of opinions, some of which will be incompatible with others. Moreover, outspoken personalities may be tempted to drown out the voice of the Holy Spirit as possibly speaking in more quiet fellow religious. This is another reason why a religious community may find it desirable to have a master listener who is open to all the expressions of the members, the loud as well as the less vocal ones.
The more every member is ready to listen to the word of the master listener within the limits freely set by the community as a whole, the greater may be the opportunity for free expression of insights, feelings and inclinations. The certitude that everyone within the limits set by the community will abide by the word of the master listener spoken in dialogue with others guarantees that the unity, peace and serenity of the community will be maintained without detracting from the possibility of candid disclosure of opposed feelings and ideas. An atmosphere of mutual respect may then prevail in which every member can feel at home and in communion with Christ, who is the source and inspiration of the abiding respect for individual personality which characterizes an authentic Christian religious community.
The vow of obedience in a community that has freely appointed or elected master listeners presupposes not only a sensitive listening to one another but also a readiness to listen to the master listener within the limits set by the community even if his insight is not totally identical with mine. I can do so in the faith that the Holy Spirit will somehow make the best of every situation even if His Spirit is misunderstood temporarily by myself, my fellow religious, or by the master listener.
Compliance with the master listener does not mean that I have to deny to myself that I see and feel somewhat differently, for this would amount to an unwholesome repression which would be a barrier to full obedience. Repressed feelings, views and inclinations tend to influence my behavior unconsciously. They are by the same token withdrawn from the possibility of a direct illumination by the Holy Spirit. An obedience built on repression of my own feelings and insights is only partial. It is not obedience of the whole me, enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Repression of my real feelings and insights may even lead to an uneasy, forced relationship between the master listener and myself or between me and my fellow religious.
The origin these strained feelings may escape me because I have repressed the awareness of my own views and feelings, when I discovered that they were divergent from those of my community or my friends, or from those of the crowd or clique in which I have immersed myself. It is thus virtually impossible to work through these feelings and insights in a Christian way. As a Christian religious, I should be so deeply permeated by a living faith in the redeeming presence of my Lord that I dare to face and admit to myself all my thoughts and feelings, even when I realize that they may be erroneous and possibly an expression of self-centeredness.
Faith that the Holy Spirit is with me and my fellow religious makes me aware that the spirit of Jesus may use my divergent insights as an occasion of illumination in regard to the will of the Father for me, my community and my friends. Recollection before the Lord Jesus and before His Spirit creates an atmosphere of serenity, humility and distancing which may enable me with His grace to purify my insights and desires from self-centeredness, exaggeration and agitation. The peace of the Spirit may then help me to present my views and feelings to fellow religious or to the master listener in words which are less recalcitrant or cynical.
Suggestions endowed with the serenity that is gift of the Holy Spirit may predispose fellow religious to transcend their own unenlightened impulses and compulsions so that they, too, may gather themselves in presence to the Lord Jesus and His Spirit. In His presence they may accept or reject my insights, but they will do so with grace and compassion. Their respectful presence may in turn deepen my serenity and enable me to live with their divergent response to me without denying that I still cherish and acknowledge as mine the insights and feelings they cannot yet accept.
However, if I do not work through my feelings and insight, I may be obedient on the conscious level and still experience a strain and artificiality in my relations with my fellow religious or with the master listener. This may be due to a misunderstanding of Christian obedience as a repression of those insights and feelings which do not coincide with the momentary dispositions of my fellow religious. Obedience in this sense is misconstrued. It misses the redemptive meaning of obedience in Christ, which is meant to liberate me from the anxiety evoked by the presence of evil in myself, in others and in the world. Christian obedience is an obedience graced and elevated by Christ, illuminated by the Holy Spirit and thus uniting me to the obedience of Christ to His Father. If I do not pursue this movement of grace in freedom and openness, I may remain infantile and immature instead of growing to the relaxed and unrepressed openness of the child, which Jesus identified as the outstanding trait of those who live in the liberating awareness of His redemption.
If my obedience is not yet Christian, I may become alienated from my self as graced and redeemed by Christ. Once estranged from my unique self, the locus of intimate self-revelation in Jesus, it may be difficult for the Lord to shine forth through me to those I encounter in my life of cultural participation. The Christian religious is called to witness to this world not for an impersonal Holy but for the Holy who has revealed himself as person in Christ. The specific witness of the Christian religious is best given to the degree that he is united to his true self in Christ so that he can be a personal occasion for His revelation.
The vow of Christ obedience thus asks me, because of Christ’s obedience to His Father, to accept the possible sacrifice I may have to make of the execution of some of my ideas. While I can escape the sacrifice by repressing my awareness of views and feelings which differ from those of master listeners or fellow religious, true Christian obedience makes me ready to abide by the execution of the insights of others when their views prevail in my community. At the same time I allow myself to experience clearly that I personally feel differently. I do not give up the insight I believe to be best, but because of Christ’s presence in the community I can say with Christ, “Yes, Father.” I can sacrifice freely and joyfully the actual realization in the community of my personal feeling, interest or insight. I see that unity in Christ and respectful togetherness….would he impossible if everyone would consider his personal insights and desires as the ultimate voice of the Holy Spirit for the community, and if everyone would force his ideas upon all others against their best insights and intentions.
The….concern for Christ’s presence in the religious (community) imposes on the master listener and every religious the obligation to listen to the insights and desires of one another as long as they are expressed humanly and reasonably. Moreover, respect for the presence of Christ in each religious imposes the duty never to deny the possibility of concretely realizing such individual desires if they can be combined reasonably with the fundamental interests of the community.

From The Vowed Life, Religious Life as Life Style and Life Symbol, Adrian Van Kaam, 1968, pp. 126-129.

[fizzylogic]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Sorry, leastone, I think there is a misunderstanding. I don't remember ever accusing you of such a thing or even feeling I had a reason to do so. My sincere apologies if anything I said put you on that impression. My memory is imperfect, so if you can find proof I am willing to look at it. But otherwise, I don't think I intentionally accused you of such a thing.

Ruby

Manipulating a person to share personal beliefs they do not wish to share is unprofessional. Judging a person for having those beliefs is abuse. The whole thing put together feels like rape just as much as physical rape. A person has a right not to be subjected to such treatment regardless of their beliefs. So please, do not further pressure me or wil or anyone else to agree with your beliefs. After all, fair is fair.

[flowperson]

"Can't we all just get along ?".....Rodney King


Seriously Fizzy, it's only your third post and you are actively judging people? You said it first..."fair is fair".

flow....

[lunamoth]

Can we please get this thread back on topic?

lunamoth
moderator, belief and spirituality

[lunamoth]

OK folks, reviewing the last several posts what I see going on is that we are assuming motivations in other people's posts, taking it personally and making it personal. This gets us bogged down time and time again.

If you feel that someone displays/develops some kind of agenda of harassing a particular member or religion/religious view in an aggressive manner please bring it to the attention of the moderators or use the report button.

A reminder from the COC:

1 – POSTING ETHIC
We ask that members respect the diverse nature of people and opinions represented in the forum. However, due to the fact that this is a place for all faiths, paths, and ultimately opinions, it is inevitable that disagreement may result.

Where you feel to disagree strongly we recommend you consider against posting in the heat of the moment. Instead take a break from it - sleep on it - and come back to the issue calm and refreshed.

If you feel a post is offensive then simply report it using the report button on each message.

Please *do* also allow administrator and moderators only to deal with disruptive members.

Respectfully,
lunamoth

[RubySera_Martin]

Hi FlyingFeetSoccer, a.k.a. fizzylogic, I recognize you from the Open Christian Debate forum. I understand that you don't like what I say about you in the opening post here. Fact is, I never expected you to come looking for me. Never ever was I going to disclose who I was talking about but, well, we all know how you've been on here.

Let me point out to all readers that what you posted under your name is copied straight from one of my earlier posts. I would expect a person with your level of education to understand all about plagiarism. Unfortunately, neither education nor religion can make a good person. We have to want it out of the depths of our own hearts.

Luna and flow, I apologize for diverting but I think you will understand. Fiz, if you really need to talk to me, you can use pm on this site. Please be informed, however, that I will tolerate only respectful conversation.

Ruby

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Can we please get this thread back on topic?

lunamoth
moderator, belief and spirituality

You're the mod? Oh God! Hey, that rhymes!

Ever since I started posting on this forum I've been amazed at how thin skinned people seem. It's like you guys are scared to argue or something. C'mon, this isn't fourth grade, let people mix it up a little.

Chris

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

You're the mod? Oh God! Hey, that rhymes!

Ever since I started posting on this forum I've been amazed at how thin skinned people seem. It's like you guys are scared to argue or something. C'mon, this isn't fourth grade, let people mix it up a little.

Chris

Chris, if people want to bare-knuckle it over the literal-factualness of Christ's Resurrection, they can go for it. But I hope that they would do so without attacking each other personally. There is a whole lot in this thread that has nothing at all to do with the OP.

lunamoth

[flowperson]

Thanks Luna.

Sorry I intervened...but I'm half Italian and have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut.

Cat...I like mixing it up much as the next person...but I believe that Luna and the CoC are right here. Conflict distracts everyone from what we are all here for...to learn from each other.

By the way, and in that vein, I think the stuff that you've posted here over the last two days is great !

flow....

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Chris, if people want to bare-knuckle it over the literal-factualness of Christ's Resurrection, they can go for it. But I hope that they would do so without attacking each other personally. There is a whole lot in this thread that has nothing at all to do with the OP.

lunamoth

So...? Hey, it's interesting: like a soap opera or an auto wreck. Look, congrats on being the Mod, I can't think of anyone better qualified, but please don't start with the micro-management.

Fizz,

You can't bring stuff over here from another forum. People prize their cyber pseudo-anonymity. We're not supposed to be persons who can be held accountable for our words, but rather cyber entities of our own designation.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Thanks Luna.

Sorry I intervened...but I'm half Italian and have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut.

Cat...I like mixing it up much as the next person...but I believe that Luna and the CoC are right here. Conflict distracts everyone from what we are all here for...to learn from each other.

By the way, and in that vein, I think the stuff that you've posted here over the last two days is great !

flow....

Oh, butt out you butt kisser! I like Luna more than you do, so quit.

Chris