Is it possible to have a dialogue about "the Truth"

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

I think that's a very pertinent question. Do we start with "what is the truth?" and then justify our answers? or do we begin with "how might we know the truth" and go where it may lead us?

I opt for the latter because I think it will result in a more productive dialogue. I could be wrong about that though.

Agreed, I feel that proceeding from the premise that an absolute truth exists is an essential direction if we are to get beyond our current state. My personal belief is that Absolute Truth is self revealing in that only outside the realms of dogma will it eventually be found and then only on an individual basis. A thousand fingers can point to the moon and I am most grateful for those sage digits, yet I alone can lift my eyes to the heavens and allow what light might be there to enter me and make itself known.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I have a question that might be pertinent here.
If we can agree that there is in fact an absolute truth, can we discuss it or speculate about it without trying to define it? My own belief is that dialogue should be mutually edifying. Therefore we should be able to feel as if our collective consciousness has improved because of our intercourse nicht wahr?

For a Christian, such as myself, the source of Truth is always God ... and as a fundamentalist Christian my authority is the Bible. However, I have tried to present arguments, apart from Scripture, why I believe there is an absolute Truth.

Our "collective consciouness" can be helpful in trying to define what Truth is in the moral sphere. That is a daunting task but an important one, I believe.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

My question is "Do you know that Jesus Christ became incarnate from the Virgin Mary?" It's taken almost verbatim from the English translation of the Nicene Creed as used by Lutherans and Episcopaleans.

I do not recognize any creeds. I am not sure what the writers of the creed intended by "from" the Virgin Mary. Ask me a question from the Bible ... I'm better at those

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by kenod

For a Christian, such as myself, the source of Truth is always God ... and as a fundamentalist Christian my authority is the Bible. However, I have tried to present arguments, apart from Scripture, why I believe there is an absolute Truth.

Our "collective consciouness" can be helpful in trying to define what Truth is in the moral sphere. That is a daunting task but an important one, I believe.

I know a delightful woman here in Colorado who has been a Buddhist nun for many years. Once when giving a Dharma talk she said: "You know, my family always hated it when I was being a Buddhist, but they love me when I am being a Buddha."
Imagine the growth potential in having to leave behind Scriptures, books, Sutras and stories and discuss truth from the place of where we actually live, to come from a place of being. Wouldn't that encourage us to stay in touch with our own ground of being in a more mindful sense? We just might have to re establish our relationship to what we concieve truth to be. Of course this puts us on the cutting edge of our own agreement with reality, scary for some, even blasphemous to the conservative mindset, but I believe that to ever grow, to ever get beyond our childlike approach to the Absolute Reality, it is necessary.

[taijasi]

Okay, I'll venture the following likelihood: Jesus of Nazareth was probably not born from a virgin named anything! I'm wracking my brain here, struggling to think logically about how that could occur, or how - even if it could - that would change things ONE WHIT from a normal, natural birth. And man, I got nuthin.

Mary got pregnant, she had a kid. Get over it. Should we fall all over ourselves and go out of our way, walking on eggshells, while in the company of those who can't see how silly this is? Mmmmm .... no. I believe we should respect others, and that others may believe different things. But if you think the earth is flat, you aren't gonna do well in a discussion about `truth.'

Still, I like Zeno, and I like to think about things like, if my house is pretty much a rectangle, and it's built on fairly FLAT land, and IF the contour of the land is basically FLAT (with apologies to those living in the mountains & such) ... then WHY COME if I walk long enough in a straight line, I start going around in circles?

Seriously though, at what point does my house suddenly start sitting on a CURVED BALL, instead of a flat plane - you know, the plains? Ummm ... Zeno??? Help!!!

Gravity distorts time. Gravity distorts space, whose nature is essentially curved, we should remember - NOT some kind of neat, invisible GRID where everything fits neatly into boxes (like us ... boxes, little boxes ....).

Anyway, Jesus was God incarnate. Okay, I think that's truth. So am I. Big deal. Worship me, darnit. Ohh, Jesus incarnated MORE of God than I do. Okay, fine. At what point do I start becoming worthy of being worshipped, like Jesus? What do I have to do?

I'm serious, actually. And I think it's worth thinking about - rhetorically, and in context, of course. Forget about me.

I know several people who can walk on water. And I don't have to see them do it, to know that they can. They could also almost certainly resurrect people from the grave - even people who HAVE been clinically dead for quite some while. But WHAT does all that prove?

It will seem absurd, or unlikely, to a lot of folks. I wonder if anyone here even believes me! But truth doesn't hinge upon what other people think - nor upon how many peole believe in a particular thing. Barking up wrong tree, there. Nor is truth determined, or defined (in its essential nature) by what some book says. ANY BOOK, written by ANY PERSON, at ANY TIME.

What's interesting, however, is the prospect that X person might know a good deal more of the truth than I do, than we do. And let's just say that X person is also HONEST, and that we are pretty sure they would not intentionally deceive us. Now we're getting somewhere, I think, because - what if this person DID write a book, wherein it was simply stated, "This is factual, truthful information"?

Ahhh, THEN we'd have a book worth reading, wouldn't we?

And a zillion question will arise. What if that book told us there was no life after death, there was no God, or that religion is a waste of time. What then?

I'd be pretty upset, rather confused, and in fact, a bit sorry I'd ever met person X. Wouldn't you?

So I think we ought to at least ask ourself a question or two. If there was actually a person X, or his brothers Y and Z, are we SURE we'd want to meet them, know them, read their books? Hmmmm. I don't think they say the things above, but I do think they tell us some things that contradict the various teachings of some religions. Or else they add a degree of clarity which - I've found - is really just not popular, or welcome.

And sometimes, the Truth can change our lives or have an impact in such a way ... that things don't get easier. They can get harder, and we can even find ourselves asking more questions than ever. It's for a greater good, usually, but it may mean I have to put a good deal of effort into practicing certain techniques, or behavior, that is difficult for me, or which I'm just not used to. Am I willing? I dunno, maybe I've found ENOUGH of this truth stuff. Or is that what I was really seeking to begin with?

I think a lot of people have found something that works. Or at least they've found something that helps. And both almost certainly contain SOME truth. But there's more of it. Of that, I'm pretty sure.

And even if the Holy Bible might contain "all the Wisdom fo the Universe," something tells me - that few upon this planet are even remotely capable of seeing that whole truth ... within its pages. And the funny thing is, they don't NEED to read it any more. They're a bit preoccupied trying to hold REALITY together for the rest of us right now.

So what if Jesus wasn't born of a virgin? So what if he was God incarnate? So what if he wasn't? I think we all are. But I don't need a book to tell me that. Life itself - and what the Christian calls Holy Spirit - speaks this Truth every day. Is anyone listening?

I think we hear what we want, and strangely, even if that guy X did write a book ... there are a whole lot of people who could pick it up, read it to cover, and NOT UNDERSTAND A WORD of it. And yes, it's in english ... and Spanish, and French, and in every language under the sun. Speaking of the sun - ahh, but all we see are fingers.

I like that, Paladin. I think you've made a wonderful point. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I can put maybe thirty, even fifity books, on someone's table, and say, "EACH of these, contains great wisdom and truth." But then it's out of my hands.

I think when it comes to discussion, we've got to at least know what the topic is! You can't say, our topic is truth. That's a bit like saying, our topic is blue. Or worse yet, it's like saying, our topic is white! In terms of color, this isn't total lack, it's just the opposite, but if blue is abstract and difficult enough, WHAT the heck do we do with white???

Aren't we really speaking of spiritual Truth - and within the context of religion, yet not exclusive of insights gained and presented by science, as well as philosophy? What do people think?

taijasi

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I know a delightful woman here in Colorado who has been a Buddhist nun for many years. Once when giving a Dharma talk she said: "You know, my family always hated it when I was being a Buddhist, but they love me when I am being a Buddha."
Imagine the growth potential in having to leave behind Scriptures, books, Sutras and stories and discuss truth from the place of where we actually live, to come from a place of being. Wouldn't that encourage us to stay in touch with our own ground of being in a more mindful sense? We just might have to re establish our relationship to what we concieve truth to be. Of course this puts us on the cutting edge of our own agreement with reality, scary for some, even blasphemous to the conservative mindset, but I believe that to ever grow, to ever get beyond our childlike approach to the Absolute Reality, it is necessary.

I think you are addressing the question of how we can know (recognize) Truth. "Discuss truth from where we actually live" ... to me that seems such a restricted way to look at Truth. Don't you want to know what made the big bang go bang!

Nevertheless, I'm not discounting your approach, because on a daily basis I need to re-evaluate what I believe about certain situations that occur. How I behave must be directed by what I hold to be the Truth. To paraphrase your Buddhist nun - I don't want to be a Christian, I want to be Christ.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by kenod

I think you are addressing the question of how we can know (recognize) Truth. "Discuss truth from where we actually live" ... to me that seems such a restricted way to look at Truth. Don't you want to know what made the big bang go bang!

Nevertheless, I'm not discounting your approach, because on a daily basis I need to re-evaluate what I believe about certain situations that occur. How I behave must be directed by what I hold to be the Truth. To paraphrase your Buddhist nun - I don't want to be a Christian, I want to be Christ.

Yes, that is what I meant by "Where you live" For a Christian who has their movement and being in Christ that is where you live, it is your ground of being beyond the books, beyond what the preacher says, beyond even relationships if you can so imagine where you can honestly say that "Christ lives me" is where you live. To come to the table from such a place, from such ultimate power is ironically a place of ultimate humility. When you speak from that state of being then ( I personally tend to believe) those that can hear you are inspired to lift their eyes to truth also. Yes, the words might be different, and they might phrase their ideas differently, but I have noticed that mystics from every religious background tend to speak the same language if you listen carefully.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I have noticed that mystics from every religious background tend to speak the same language if you listen carefully.

I think this is true as long as we are speaking about morality.

But is there a Truth that extends beyond our life in the here and now? Is there a God who intervenes in our lives on a personal level, and communicates with us? Are the Christian concepts of an afterlife, and heaven and hell, part of the Truth? These are questions that pertain to the supernatural realm.

From what source do we seek answers to these questions? And by what authority does anyone attempt to provide us with the answers?

[samabudhi]

From what source do we seek answers to these questions? And by what authority does anyone attempt to provide us with the answers?

Direct perception and inference. Some say scripture as well, but I think it really boils down to direct perception in the end.

So to really know the hell realm and be sure about it, you need to experience it directly. To really know God, you would have to experience him directly. Experiencing anything through your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, thoughts...these are all indirect.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Direct perception and inference. Some say scripture as well, but I think it really boils down to direct perception in the end.

So to really know the hell realm and be sure about it, you need to experience it directly. To really know God, you would have to experience him directly. Experiencing anything through your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, thoughts...these are all indirect.

What about instinct?
What about love?
What about faith?

Are these "real" experiences?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by kenod

I do not recognize any creeds. I am not sure what the writers of the creed intended by "from" the Virgin Mary. Ask me a question from the Bible ... I'm better at those

Cool. I think I've stumbled across the Australian Bill Clinton.

Please provide the common name of your preferred Enlish translation of the Bible so you can continue helping me know the truth.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by kenod

From what source do we seek answers to these questions? And by what authority does anyone attempt to provide us with the answers?

Let's get back to our project. Perhaps we'll find out the answers to these excellent questions.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Cool. I think I've stumbled across the Australian Bill Clinton.

I hope not ... BC is best remembered here for the line: "Washington couldn't tell a lie; Nixon couldn't tell the truth; and Clinton couldn't tell the difference."

Besides, could you imagine me being a Democrat !!!

Please provide the common name of your preferred Enlish translation of the Bible so you can continue helping me know the truth.

It might be more helpful if you tried explaining your point ... little pithy posts just confuse me

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by kenod

It might be more helpful if you tried explaining your point ... little pithy posts just confuse me

I don't have a point.

I do have a question. What is your preferred English translation of the Bible?

Let's continue the process of discovering the truth together, instead of preaching at each other, which - let's face it - is likely to be a waste of both my time and yours.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

I am asking serious questions about the nature of faith, how we define and determine "the truth," and, in the real world in which we live, what should we do about the inescapable reality that just about every single person has arrived at a different conviction about "the truth" and of what it consists.

Yes indeed, back to the project

This may require a different thread altogether, but I imagine that any discussion on truth must follow the perceptions of the personality describing it much like the elephant proverb. If the MBTI of the person leads them to a more fundamentalist outlook and say another person comes from a more INFP place wouldn't an unresovleable "software conflict" arise?