Is it possible to have a dialogue about "the Truth"

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hi Q,

Yes the term was used here to provide a short, though hopefully poigniant response to the previous post. As for showing superior knowledge? I would have to leave that to the more erudite and sometimes verbose members of the forum, as I am just a simple blue collar type.
As an aside though I am impressed with your knowledge of the different levels of "dead" rivaled only perhaps by Billy Crystal in "The Princess Bride"
I think the scene where he revives a member of the band of heroes out to rescue the Princess. " Ok, I can help, he's just a little dead, if he was a lot dead, it would be different" ( or something like that)

Peace
Mark

(Lol) or something like that...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Perhaps it has to do with starting with some very simple affirmations ...

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

This has got to be one of the most powerful statements ever uttered, as well as one of the most basic truths of our existence. I do not think that it could be repeated too often, and for some people (me included), usually in these exact words.

Love and Light,

taijasi

I believe that people are truly good when they forgoe the desires of their heart.

Look, Love isn't based on emotion, rather it is based on decision or choice. If the heart is the center of anything (besides pumping blood), it would be emotional desire. But the "will" of a person does not rest within the heart. We know for fact that removing the "heart" from a situation (literally), does not stop the will of a man. Case in point a few years back, when what, seven FBI agents were killed by a gunman who had his "heart" blown apart, yet managed to kill seven agents, and get in and drive a car for a mile before he died.

The autopsy revealed that he had no heart left, and they could not figure out how he kept going for almost five minutes, with no oxygen going to the body or brain...

If we were to follow our "heart's desire", how many broken relationships would we have?...just look around you for the answer. Man is not basically "good at heart". His heart has no concscience. It wants what it wants, right/wrong or indifferent. Man's will determines his goodness/badness. And the will is not an emotional thing, but rather a decision making thing.

..."so Q, are you implying that man should be more self disciplined and should deny ourselves that which we think we deserve?"...yeah.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

What is Truth? Simple. Truth is your neighbor giving his word about something, and then keeping that word. That is Truth.

v/r

Q

[cavalier]

is it?

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Yes the term was used here to provide a short, though hopefully poigniant response to the previous post. As for showing superior knowledge? I would have to leave that to the more erudite and sometimes verbose members of the forum, as I am just a simple blue collar type.
Peace
Mark

Seems I was a touch too touchy ... sorry, Mark. I still think it was a bit naughty the way the thread was started, but even that is relatively petty compared to the subject matter being discussed.

I hope I did not give the impression that I believe I am right about everything. One of the points I was trying to present, probably very clumsily, was that each one of us should be convinced that what we are doing is right. It is hard work, and apathy or befuddlement are not good excuses when our behaviour has a direct bearing on the welfare of others - as a parent, as a school teacher (ex), as a citizen and voter, and as someone who will die one day, I believe I need to put serious effort into coming to an understanding of what I believe is right and what I believe is wrong.

I think it is easier to talk about truth in a situational context, rather than one global Truth: rape and murder are wrong; children should be protected; etc.

All of us use our beliefs to contribute to the suffering of others - whether by overt action or by neglect. Should people in Africa be dying of starvation - of course everyone thinks that is wrong (I hope) - and yet what we do, or don’t do, on a personal level, proves what we really believe about it.

Yet I do believe there is one absolute and universal truth … but that does not mean that any one person knows all of it. The randomness of some aspects of nature (quantum physics was mentioned) is only “random” because we do not yet have sufficient understanding to predict outcomes. Nature operates according to inflexible laws. I believe we are created by God, and we are a part of the nature He created.

As a volunteer worker in a nursing home for the elderly, I have seen a number of people die - I don’t mean just the biological process, but also the emotional/spiritual process. I know that certainty (“I am right”) is very significant in the quality of a person’s death.

While I believe in one absolute Truth, each person’s role or place in that Truth will not be the same. Because I believe the Christian Bible is right, does not mean that I believe every Muslim is going to hell. Our place in the universal Truth is ordained by God.

[seattlegal]

I stumbled acrossed this, and thought it might be interesting to share it here. It could serve to stimulate some different lines of thought.

Originally Posted by dictionary-dot-com

[Middle English trewe, from Old English trowe, firm, trustworthy. See deru- in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
trueness n.
Word History: The words true and tree are joined at the root, etymologically speaking. In Old English, the words looked and sounded much more alike than they do now: “tree” was trow and “true” was trowe. The first of these comes from the Germanic noun *trewam; the second, from the adjective *treuwaz. Both these Germanic words ultimately go back to an Indo-European root *deru- or *dreu-, appearing in derivatives referring to wood and, by extension, firmness. Truth may be thought of as something firm; so too can certain bonds between people, like trust, another derivative of the same root. A slightly different form of the root, *dru-, appears in the word druid, a type of ancient Celtic priest; his name is etymologically *dru-wid-, or “strong seer.”

Is truth like a living thing?

[kenod]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Is truth like a living thing?

If you mean, do we grow in our understanding of the Truth, both as a people, and as individuals, then I believe the answer is yes.

Once we thought the earth was flat, and the sun went around the earth.

Slavery has always been wrong, but as a people, we took some time to come to that understanding.

Even in Christian religious thought there have been significant world-wide developments: the Reformation (16C); the Wesleyan holiness movement(18C); the Pentecostal movement (20C). Not all have been embraced by every Christian church, however. I see these movements as adding to the Truth; not a different Truth.

[wil]

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

I must admit, I've really never been outta the states...Canada, Mexico and the Caribean can't really be considered traveling the world...but I have been all over this continent...and more often than not on my thumb, at the mercy of my fellow man, and have been deeply impressed. Coast to coast numerous times, up and down both shores, and from the Yukon Territory down into the SW all on my thumb...slept in homes on couches, on beds, was fed and taken care of by this wonderful extended human family.

My sister after a two year stint in the Peace Corp, left Benin and traveled around Africa and across the desert, middle east and into Europe...met glorious wonderful sharing humans along the way... tis the mob mentality, whether religous or governmental that spurs us to discord it appears to me.

I think we all know our truths, our beliefs, our faiths differ....so what, let us enjoy what we have.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by wil

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

. . . tis the mob mentality, whether religous or governmental that spurs us to discord it appears to me.

And "the Truth" sets us free from the latter to get back in touch with the former.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

I must admit, I've really never been outta the states...Canada, Mexico and the Caribean can't really be considered traveling the world...but I have been all over this continent...and more often than not on my thumb, at the mercy of my fellow man, and have been deeply impressed. Coast to coast numerous times, up and down both shores, and from the Yukon Territory down into the SW all on my thumb...slept in homes on couches, on beds, was fed and taken care of by this wonderful extended human family.

My sister after a two year stint in the Peace Corp, left Benin and traveled around Africa and across the desert, middle east and into Europe...met glorious wonderful sharing humans along the way... tis the mob mentality, whether religous or governmental that spurs us to discord it appears to me.

I think we all know our truths, our beliefs, our faiths differ....so what, let us enjoy what we have.

I'd like to point out something here:

Your "thumb" got the attention of one passing by. His/her heart felt an emotional tug in one direction or another. His/her will decided which action to follow concerning the emotional tug they felt. Within a span of a few seconds, the observer of your thumb searched their own personal history, compared experiences even closely resembling the situation at hand (no pun intended), considered historical references of other's stories told to the observer about similar situations, considered the risk/reward factors, and made a "decision" to either pick you up, or drive right past...

What does this have to do with truth?...Truth isn't so simple as we'd like to believe. Maybe Truth is ultimately about self, and self satisfaction...

just a thought

v/r

Q

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Truth isn't so simple as we'd like to believe. Maybe Truth is ultimately about self, and self satisfaction...

That's a new angle in this disucussion. Can you elaborate?

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I stumbled acrossed this, and thought it might be interesting to share
Originally Posted by dictionary-dot-com
[Middle English trewe, from Old English trowe, firm, trustworthy. See deru- in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
trueness n.
Word History: The words true and tree are joined at the root, etymologically speaking. In Old English, the words looked and sounded much more alike than they do now: “tree” was trow and “true” was trowe. The first of these comes from the Germanic noun *trewam; the second, from the adjective *treuwaz. Both these Germanic words ultimately go back to an Indo-European root *deru- or *dreu-, appearing in derivatives referring to wood and, by extension, firmness. Truth may be thought of as something firm; so too can certain bonds between people, like trust, another derivative of the same root. A slightly different form of the root, *dru-, appears in the word druid, a type of ancient Celtic priest; his name is etymologically *dru-wid-, or “strong seer.”re it here. It could serve to stimulate some different lines of thought.

Is truth like a living thing?

Thanks for this Seattle. It helps to clear up a mystery that I have often cited in the past.

Did you know that in the ancient times Celtic priests also had to be poets (What a surprise, huh)?. Anthropologists have discovered that periodically four priests would lash themselves firmly to a large tree in their community and face the four cardinal points of direction. They would then commence to sing and recite from memory the poetic sagas of the histories of their people, and they would do this when they felt that their community needed sacred guidance. Sometimes these sessions went on for many hours at a time, perhaps even days, depending upon the needs of the community. This was the way that oral histories were recited and remembered before the advent of writing in many Celtic communities.

Based upon your citation and upon knowledge of cultural history items such as this... I would say that yes, truth is a living thing, and sometimes it doesn't take much to kill it. For both truth and life may be very fragile and strong things at the same time, just like trees. Sometimes susceptible to destruction but also replicable and reproducible as it were, through seeding and new growth. Whereas lies require ever more energy and embellishment over time to maintain their effects, and they always die in the end without exact replications.

THE WORD !

flow....

[Abogado del Diablo]

Here's my best answer to the questions I pose. "The Truth" is two things:

First, it is "the Truth" that none of knows the objective truth. We don't know or understand the nature of being, the Universe, its purpose, or our place in it no matter how much we assert that our metaphorical "faith" statements or creeds somehow capture the objective reality in which "we" exist.

Second, "the Truth" is that the identity we create for ourselves, the division between "me" and "God" and "me" and "other" and "good" and "evil" are all illusions created by our dependence on reason and language. Moreover, all the things we thing define our "self" are of our own creation. The Word of God (the Logos) is indeed the divine creative power of the whole Universe. Because God exists as "I am" only when there exists "other." There can be no consciousness of "self" without the fundamental schism between self and the wholeness of just being.

Thus, the "Fall" is about how the temptation of moral reasoning (eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) has separated us from God and convinced us to judge ourselves, each other and the Garden in which we live (and by extension, God). And the sacrifice of Jesus shows us the way back to the Garden and unity with the Father - by unconditional love, i.e. living beyond good and evil trusting that the only judgment we will receive for our sins is the one we give to ourselves. We must die for the sins of others and forgive them even as we do. And if we cling to our belief that we know good from evil and must judge, condemn, or change ourselves, others or our world in accordance with that imagined knowledge, we will continue to be separate from each other and separate from God.

Indeed, Jesus is the Truth, the Light and Way. And no one comes to the Father but through him. However, it is also the Truth that the Truth is One, even though we each may find a different way to express our experience of it. So one who finds the Truth and the Way has found the Truth and the Way, regardless of whether they call it "Jesus", "God", "Allah" the "Brahman", the "Tao" . . .

As far as the dialogue, so long as we think we know the truth (little "t"), we don't know the Truth. And there can be no real dialogue.


My 2 cents.

[Jamarz]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

As far as the dialogue, so long as we think we know the truth (little "t"), we don't know the Truth. And there can be no real dialogue.

Hmmmm, very interesting. So are you saying that as long as we think that we have all the correct answers from each of our "worldviews;" and that,we believe those answers are true for all people in all times, then we cannot have a real dialogue with others who may or may not think the same way?

Yes, I can see how one can reach that conclusion. If we think that we know the "answers for all" then we will come to the table with a hidden agenda to convert others to our worldview. I experienced this firsthand, a few years back when I was involved with Dialogue Dinners/Food For Thought Gatherings in Colorado Springs. Our mission was to have people from differing beliefs and backgrounds meet for dinner and discussion in each other's homes for at least 6 times.

I helped train the volunteer facilitators for each group. We wrote a manual from which I pulled the information on debate vs dialogue to share with this thread. The program went really well for awhile with hundreds of people of different racial, religious and political backgrounds and beliefs participating in the dinners/dialogue.

However, after awhile, when those people who had signed up with ulterior motives saw that no one was converting to their truth, they left in droves. For them to consider another viewpoint was simply a waste of time.

I know that I have some more to share on dialogue and collective learning as implements of community change; but it is late, and I have many miles to go before I sleep.....

[lunamoth]

So, no vehicle, no raft. Just swim.

?

luna