is it not clear that judaism is true?

[gooduser07]

in ultimate truth of reality, is it not clear that judaism is it?

I have only recently begun to look at other belief systems, so please excuse if the answer is obvious. it is not obvious to me at this point.

idea is as follows:

judaism seems true for a variety of reasons. one of the most prominent is judaism's unique claims of national revelation and multiplicity of large-scale miracles in egypt, the desert, and afterwards, some of which were sustained over a 39 year period. such claims could either be made up or true. it seems more reasonable to assume they are true.

if it is clear that judaism is true, why do all the buddhists, secularists, and subscribers of all the other (non-bible-based) beliief systems in the world practice their respective systems and not judaism?

is it that the above arguments of mass revelation, etc, are not found to be compelling by all these people? is it that they are compelling, but the other systems have lines of argument of equal or superior compelling nature? something else?

any insight would be appreciated

gooduser

[dauer]

Hey gooduser. Welcome to c-r.

judaism seems true for a variety of reasons. one of the most prominent is judaism's unique claims of national revelation and multiplicity of large-scale miracles in egypt, the desert, and afterwards, some of which were sustained over a 39 year period.

I think you've hit the crux of it right here. It's a claim. I don't think making the larger claim makes a religion more likely to be true. It's really a matter of faith. You could argue against this that nobody would ever have accepted such extraordinary claims when they were made, even back then, and yet if that were true nobody would have accepted G!d incarnate on earth either. But that happened at a time where people viewed the world in terms of myth. It may not have been meant quite the way we would understand it in a literal sense. And, to point out an exception to the rule of more recent folks not accepting radically new myth, there's the LDS Church. So I don't think an argument that because the myth is hard to swallow for us that it must then be hard to swallow for our ancestors would be a very good response if you made it.

if it is clear that judaism is true, why do all the buddhists, secularists, and subscribers of all the other (non-bible-based) beliief systems in the world practice their respective systems and not judaism?

It sounds like it is fairly clear to you, but the reason people follow other religions is because it's not clear. And there are people of other religions who would also make similar claims about their respective religions. But the claim to the universal truth of a religion has never been universaly agreed to.


I think that in approaching the question of "made up or true" it doesn't really have to be black and white. Some of it might be true. It might be historically false but still contain truths. There are many shades between black and white.

Dauer

[China Cat Sunflower]

Have you read The Jew in the Lotus, by Roger Kamenetz?

Chris

[dauer]

Me or gooduser?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Whoever. It's about trying to figure out why the best and brightest progressive and otherwise young Jews are agnostic on their own faith and enamored of the Eastern tradition. It's about Jubu's.

Chris

[dauer]

Yeah, I've read it. I've been to a retreat with Reb Zalman and Reb Moshe's shul is about a mile from my house. It's a great book. But Jews going East is really only a side issue that's primarily addressed in later chapters. It's more centered on the first delegation of Jewish leaders to go meet the Dalai Lama. It brings in different teachings about Judaism that the rabbis felt were relevant and in some of the cases translates the terms so that it's easier to understand as well as those the Dalai Lama was specifically interested in, like surviving in exile. But some of the best parts of the book for me were about the journey, not what happened when they got there.

There's something Reb Zalman said in the name of Reb Shlomo Carlebach that I'm not sure is ever mentioned in the book. Reb Shlomo taught, from a teaching in the Mei HaShiloach (it's from last week's parsha and I've been reading along a bit in the mei hashiloah and am not sure quite the way it relates, but I've read from the author of my translation in an interview that the way Reb Shlomo would drash on the mei hashiloach, it wasn't always clear the connection) that with the Holocaust the Jewish people had come into contact with death which rendered them tamei. There had been a huge spiritual death. The only way to remove that degree of tumah is with the ashes of a red heifer which must be done by a kohein who hasn't been rendered tamei. And it's done outside the camp. So some of the Jewish people (a nation of priests) went out of the camp to other kohanim (that is the spiritual sages of other traditions) to have the tumah removed. Then they could bring that back with them to Judaism. At that point they would be able to help remove some of the spiritual death from the rest of the Jewish community. A lot of this has happened by means of Jewish Renewal which has been a way back for people who have left without having to forsake the things they've learned and to at the same time learn Jewish ways of expressing it and the best way to share those teachings that mesh with Judaism with fellow Jews.

Dauer

[China Cat Sunflower]

That's a super interesting take Dauer, I really appreciate that. I most enjoyed the travelogue bits as well. I have a friend who's big into renewal. She turned me on to the book and the Tikkun site.

I don't think Judaism is as accessible as Buddhism. It's certainly not as exotic. I think that most of the trending should be seen in the larger context of the postmodern disillusionment coming out of the cultural revolution of the fifties and sixties.

Chris

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by gooduser07

in ultimate truth of reality, is it not clear that judaism is it?

I have only recently begun to look at other belief systems, so please excuse if the answer is obvious. it is not obvious to me at this point.

idea is as follows:

judaism seems true for a variety of reasons. one of the most prominent is judaism's unique claims of national revelation and multiplicity of large-scale miracles in egypt, the desert, and afterwards, some of which were sustained over a 39 year period. such claims could either be made up or true. it seems more reasonable to assume they are true.

if it is clear that judaism is true, why do all the buddhists, secularists, and subscribers of all the other (non-bible-based) beliief systems in the world practice their respective systems and not judaism?

is it that the above arguments of mass revelation, etc, are not found to be compelling by all these people? is it that they are compelling, but the other systems have lines of argument of equal or superior compelling nature? something else?

any insight would be appreciated

gooduser

hello, gooduser and welcome to cr!

i read your post and i am in complete agreement with you. i for one was on a different path apart from God's path so i understand what its like to not believe in God. but, from my point of view these scriptures give a sense of how God works when it comes to those that don't have knowledge of God:


Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. 19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant? 20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. 21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

just my point of view. thanks and God bless...

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by gooduser07

in ultimate truth of reality, is it not clear that judaism is it?

No

Originally Posted by gooduser07

I have only recently begun to look at other belief systems, so please excuse if the answer is obvious. it is not obvious to me at this point.

That's okay I think the key is to look at it from another's perspective.

Originally Posted by gooduser07

idea is as follows:

judaism seems true for a variety of reasons. one of the most prominent is judaism's unique claims of national revelation

They are claims, it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to believe them.

Originally Posted by gooduser07

and multiplicity of large-scale miracles in egypt, the desert, and afterwards, some of which were sustained over a 39 year period. such claims could either be made up or true. it seems more reasonable to assume they are true.

Why is it more reasonable to assume that they are true? From a polytheistic perspective, even if they are true, it doesn't mean your God is the only God.

Originally Posted by gooduser07

if it is clear that judaism is true, why do all the buddhists, secularists, and subscribers of all the other (non-bible-based) beliief systems in the world practice their respective systems and not judaism?

is it that the above arguments of mass revelation, etc, are not found to be compelling by all these people? is it that they are compelling, but the other systems have lines of argument of equal or superior compelling nature? something else?

Faith isn't something that comes from logical arguments and reasoning (at least, that's what I think about faith) it is about things you just know or feel to be true. You strongly feel Judaism is true, that's great, but not all of us feel that. Arguments based on sacred texts won't work on those who don't believe the texts are the word of God.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by gooduser07

in ultimate truth of reality, is it not clear that judaism is it?

Hi gooduser and welcome to CR

My answer to your primary question would be that it currently appears to be clear to about 0.22% of the world's population. That's not to say that this 0.22% are not "right", but it suggests to me that it means it is not so clear.

Major Religions Ranked by Size

Snoopy.

[JosephM]

Welcome Gooduser07,

Opinions are cheap but since you ask, I would have to ditto Impqueen's response above verbatim.

Love and Peace,
JM

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, you Hebrews do make a mean kosher frank.

Chris

[bananabrain]

gooduser07,

like a couple of other people have pointed out, the unique claims of national revelation, miracles etc (in which, in case you weren't aware, i also believe) remain, despite all rhetorical and philosophical manoeuvrings, just that - claims.

basically, if it was clear that judaism was "true", then it would be self-evident - and therefore would convince everyone who came across it to convert. however, judaism is not a universalist religion. we do not seek converts, because we do not believe that judaism is right for everyone. we believe it is right for jews. if you believed it was right for everyone, you'd feel compelled to go out and evangelise, even to tribespeople in the amazonian jungle. we don't think like that - and religions that do (christianity and islam being the most obvious examples) have (and continue to) upon many occasions get so excited about their "good news" and "final revelation" that they just *have* to convert you - and if you don't want to convert, your quality of life suffers an immediate downturn.

exclusive truth => universalism => evangelism => forced conversion or persecution

this is the inescapable logic of religious history. instead of which, we maintain that "the righteous amongst the nations inherit a portion in the World to Come" which drives a set of criteria for whether one is to be considered righteous as a non-jews, namely to follow the seven noahide laws, of which you have no doubt heard.

arguments of mass revelation, satisfying though they may be to the kiruv movement, nevertheless rest upon the transmission of accurate reporting of this mass witnessing, which means the account in the Torah, which is *one* source with no corroborating evidence. in other words, we only have the Torah's word for it that there were 600,000 people there and we only have the word of the chain of tradition (see the first chapter of pirkei avot) that Torah has been correctly transmitted. so it's not that the argument isn't compelling - it's just that it's only compelling if you accept a whole bunch of axiomatic stuff that goes with it.

at the end of the day, one's inner experience must be able to confirm one's outer experience. i cannot account for the anomalous survival of the jewish people and its re-establishment in its land, against all laws of historical logic. i cannot account for the resilience and disproportionate influence that jews have had on human culture, even lapsed jews like marx, freud or einstein. most of all, i cannot account for the construction of Torah itself, nor for its integrity, nor for its complexity and consistency with the system that it supports. it doesn't *feel* merely human to me in the depth that it exhibits. i don't even have to go to the "bible codes" of eliyahu rips for that - the way that the mystics plumb the esoteric depths of Torah and the way that that speaks to my inner self does that in the same way that hearing a truly great piece of music does. you just know. but, obviously, you cannot convey this to someone whose aesthetic is different, or who just doesn't get it. not everyone likes bach's fugues and not everyone likes the new prince album. it's just one of those things we all have to deal with.

Originally Posted by Impqueen

From a polytheistic perspective, even if they are true, it doesn't mean your God is the only God.

in a polytheistic environment, it might be interpreted as such - but judaism maintains that there is only One Infinite Divine and, depending on your point of view, that all other ideas of "god" are either illusory products of the human imagination or simply aspects or interfaces of the Ultimate Reality wearing, as it were, different hats. idolatry is a matter of how you behave, not really about how you describe G!D.

china cat sunflower et al:

i've read "the jew in the lotus" and thought it was great. only someone nicked my copy a few years back. i met some of the rabbis who were in it and at least one of them, yitz greenberg, indirectly became a great influence on my religious development. in fact, several of them have influenced me through their writing or their students.

you may, if you wish, also be interested in taking a look at the outreach-meister r. akiva tatz's "letters to a buddhist jew" although i suspect his take would be more akin to that of gooduser07 than of anyone elses. it certainly isn't a genuine work of comparative religion, as rabbi tatz is far more interested in saying "oh, anything they have in buddhism we already have in judaism except better" - he's interested in "saving" the eponymous jubu rather than exploring his beliefs. and whilst i have a certain amount of sympathy with his aim, i would certainly not suggest that r. tatz's brand of strict orthodoxy was appropriate for every jew.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

BB,

Have you read the Big Book of Jewish Humor, co-authored by Reb Moshe Waldoks (http://www.tbzbrookline.org/reb/humo...07&page=5807)? Of all the books by all of the rabbis in that book this one has been the most spiritually transformative. It led me to a direct encounter with the Divine and left me yearning for constant devekut with G!d, especially the excerpt from MAD Magazine, a parody of Fiddler on the Roof called Antenna on the Roof. If it weren't for the picture of a dog with ears that look like peyos and the comic of a bar mitzvah boy exposing himself to the congregation and proclaiming to the disgusted faces, "I'm a man!" I think I'd have left Judaism long ago and become a militant proponent of positive atheism.

I haven't read anything by Yitz or Blu Greenberg but have wanted to. Now that it's on my mind I'll have to add a book or two to my growing amazon wishlist for later purchase. What would you suggest I read?

Dauer

[bananabrain]

hur hur hur. i haven't actually read any of yitz's books, but have read quite a few of his articles and lectures. plus his moral leadership in setting up "clal" has been an inspiration - someone who is prepared to test the comfort zone in the name of creating an inclusive, liberal-minded, open orthodoxy. i'd also recommend blu greenberg's "women in judaism" - it's a basic, probably quite dated text now but it is really a fundamental piece of work for anyone who doesn't see why orthodoxy and feminism should be mutually exclusive.

b'shalom

bananabrain