Is it fair to insinuate about Islam?

[farhan]

My mistake... I am a Kaffir-Harbi : A non-Muslim who does not live under Muslim rule. Which according to these two sources pulled from Wiki state:

"It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb [the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged] is not protected"

"...it is permitted to kill him, because he is a Harbi and the Harbi spreads corruption throughout the face of the earth."

Nice tolerant religion aint it.....

Err...wiki is not a very good place for refuting Islam. And the first quote....me(z)mri....shouldnt you ask Wilders about Islam?

A Kafir-Harbi is an enemy with loaded guns who will shoot a bullet in your head whenever he gets a chance, more or less an enemy on the battle field. The only thing you give him is a bullet, before he gives it to you .

So... are you a Harbi Kafir?

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by farhan

Err...wiki is not a very good place for refuting Islam. And the first quote....me(z)mri....shouldnt you ask Wilders about Islam?

Are you making a point about Tao's choice of evidence?

[farhan]

Are you making a point about Tao's choice of evidence?

Yup. Wiki quoting memri......one marginally biased source quoting another inherently hatemongering source .... what kind of evidence is this ?

[Tao_Equus]

Netti,

Regardless of what the 'official' position is, what the law says, female genital mutilation is standard practice amongst Muslims in Egypt. Almost every girl there has suffered this butchery. It would not happen if the religious leadership there did not sanction it. Its that kind of society. And it is not confined to Egypt by any means. It is endemic in a swathe right across sub saharan Muslim Africa and growing.

To be blunt I could not give a flying monkey about what is or is not in the Q'uran, the Sunnah's or any other commentary that holds sway over Muslim thinking. Like any of the Abrahamics it has and will continue to be used to justify those that like a taste of power over others. I have read enough about its founding to be sure in my own mind that this was its actual original purpose. Of all of them (the Abrahamics) this is the most contrived. To me Mohamed, Bakr or, most likely, Uthman were highly impressed and motivated by Constantine and what he did to turn the cult of Christianity into the greatest tool of social control ever to come out of Rome. But thats another subject.

As for what are or are not facts that is always open to what you do or do not 'want' to believe. The thread asks is it fair to insinuate about Islam, not about your interpretation of Islam. Islam is everything that takes place in Islamic society. And so yes it is fair to insinuate but no less so the role of Christianity in the American life. I am fairly confident that I have a just appraisal of what Islam is, standing in my shoes. But you stand in your shoes.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by farhan

Err...wiki is not a very good place for refuting Islam. And the first quote....me(z)mri....shouldnt you ask Wilders about Islam?

A Kafir-Harbi is an enemy with loaded guns who will shoot a bullet in your head whenever he gets a chance, more or less an enemy on the battle field. The only thing you give him is a bullet, before he gives it to you .

So... are you a Harbi Kafir?

I openly claim Islam to be a fraudulent, fabricated religion. To many Muslims this view is a gun.

Tao

[farhan]

I openly claim Islam to be a fraudulent, fabricated religion. To many Muslims this view is a gun.

No, you dont understand. You need to have a real loaded gun. Otherwise, "thelaw" wont consider you a Harbi-Kafir. You might get flogged if you openly preach these things in an Islamic state, but still, the law prevents anybody from killing you.

To be decleared a Harbi-Kafir you will have to attack an Islamic state & kill muslims. Kind of what the US/Allied forces are doing in Iraq & Afghanistan.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by farhan

No, you dont understand. You need to have a real loaded gun. Otherwise, "thelaw" wont consider you a Harbi-Kafir. You might get flogged if you openly preach these things in an Islamic state, but still, the law prevents anybody from killing you.

To be decleared a Harbi-Kafir you will have to attack an Islamic state & kill muslims. Kind of what the US/Allied forces are doing in Iraq & Afghanistan.

I did not realise they had percussion firearms back when the Q'uran was assembled. What foresight!!

My point is you do not have to search far to find those that take any slight on Islam as a life or death situation. Like calling a teddy bear Muhammad or writing a novel or publishing a cartoon for example. Such extremes over what is when all said and done a mass superstition, is just plain nuts. The problem with religion, not just Islam, is that it uses twisted logic and interpretation far too often to justify the unjustifiable. I have been accused before on these threads of throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this regard. But my belief is the baby drowned long ago in the rank and putrid mire of religious extremes.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Greetings Tao. You wrote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Regardless of what the 'official' position is, what the law says, female genital mutilation is standard practice amongst Muslims in Egypt. ... And it is not confined to Egypt by any means. It is endemic in a swathe right across sub saharan Muslim Africa and growing.

Actually it's not growing. There have been dramatic DECREASES in the prevalence rates. If you would, kindly find us proof that it is growing.

Further, your characterization of the pervasivenes of the practice is uninformed. In the Middle East it is practised in only a handful of counties (Egypt, Oman, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen) while being outlawed in others. I'm not minimizing here. I'm merely pointing out that your persist in making sweeping claims that simply do not square with available evidence.

I could not give a flying monkey about what is or is not in the Q'uran, the Sunnah's or any other commentary that holds sway over Muslim thinking.

To me this simply means that you would maintain that FGM is "Islmamic" .... even though you can point to no scriptural justification and even though the practice may in fact be criminally actionable according to Islamic law!

As for what are or are not facts that is always open to what you do or do not 'want' to believe.

This statement sidesteps the real issue, which has to do with factual evidence. Matters of fact are not readily settled by flicking them away as indications of some blind tendency to process information in accordance with confirmation bias with the intention of reaching a preferred conclusion.

Ok then, so you don't care for my beliefs. Fine, let's keep it interesting. Here is someone else's belief statement on the subject:

"Without the support of Quran, the traditions of Prophet Mohammed, scholarly consensus and analogy, that are the basis for engagement under Islam, someone cannot stand up and claim that FGM is based on Islamic faith," states Ibrahim Lethome, an Islam scholar and lawyer.

He adds, "We have read the whole Quran and not seen a clause supporting FGM. The Quran outlaws the harming of someone and the practice should be delinked from religion as Islam says anything harmful should be discarded."

Source: KENYA: 'Female Circumcision Not Linked To Islam'

Tao, I must say you are a remarkable fellow. I repeatedly highlight the need for you to gather some facts relevant to your contentions. Yet you persist along the same opinionated lines. You are clearly intent on slandering Islam.

For your interest:

Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim, the practices are not prescribed by Islam and are, in fact, found among non-Muslim groups such as Coptic Christians of Egypt, several Christian groups in Kenya, and the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia.

Source: Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kindly note in the above article that there are high rates of FGM among subsets of the population who have no religion. Moreover, in least one country - Kenya - higher rates of this practice are found among Christian groups. You obviously know your way around search engines. So why couldn't you find these articles as easily as I did?

I am fairly confident that I have a just appraisal of what Islam is, standing in my shoes.

It appears to be an appraisal that is not capable of incorporating contrary information. Thus it seems your position does indeed indicate the operation of confirmation bias, just like you said.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I have been accused before on these threads of throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this regard.

It wasn’t meant as an accusation, I’m sorry if you read it as such. It was meant as an analogy, a suggestion of a concern that such a perspective may be a denial of something real.

But my belief is the baby drowned long ago in the rank and putrid mire of religious extremes.

It is my current belief that the universe is constantly being constructed by my mind, in every changing moment. As it is for everyone. It therefore can be changed in an instant.




s.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Greetings Tao. You wrote:

Actually it's not growing. There have been dramatic DECREASES in the prevalence rates. If you would, kindly find us proof that it is growing.

Further, your characterization of the pervasivenes of the practice is uninformed. In the Middle East it is practised in only a handful of counties (Egypt, Oman, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen) while being outlawed in others. I'm not minimizing here. I'm merely pointing out that your persist in making sweeping claims that simply do not square with available evidence.


To me this simply means that you would maintain that FGM is "Islmamic" .... even though you can point to no scriptural justification and even though the practice may in fact be criminally actionable according to Islamic law!


This statement sidesteps the real issue, which has to do with factual evidence. Matters of fact are not readily settled by flicking them away as indications of some blind tendency to process information in accordance with confirmation bias with the intention of reaching a preferred conclusion.

Ok then, so you don't care for my beliefs. Fine, let's keep it interesting. Here is someone else's belief statement on the subject:

"Without the support of Quran, the traditions of Prophet Mohammed, scholarly consensus and analogy, that are the basis for engagement under Islam, someone cannot stand up and claim that FGM is based on Islamic faith," states Ibrahim Lethome, an Islam scholar and lawyer.

He adds, "We have read the whole Quran and not seen a clause supporting FGM. The Quran outlaws the harming of someone and the practice should be delinked from religion as Islam says anything harmful should be discarded."

Source: KENYA: 'Female Circumcision Not Linked To Islam'

Tao, I must say you are a remarkable fellow. I repeatedly highlight the need for you to gather some facts relevant to your contentions. Yet you persist along the same opinionated lines. You are clearly intent on slandering Islam.

For your interest:

Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim, the practices are not prescribed by Islam and are, in fact, found among non-Muslim groups such as Coptic Christians of Egypt, several Christian groups in Kenya, and the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia.

Source: Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kindly note in the above article that there are high rates of FGM among subsets of the population who have no religion. Moreover, in least one country - Kenya - higher rates of this practice are found among Christian groups. You obviously know your way around search engines. So why couldn't you find these articles as easily as I did?


It appears to be an appraisal that is not capable of incorporating contrary information. Thus it seems your position does indeed indicate the operation of confirmation bias, just like you said.

My apologies but, as I already stated, I really have not had the time to give you the research to back up my claims. But it is my understanding that the practice amongst Muslims in West Africa is alive and well and in nations that...erm... 'enjoy' Sharia Law like Nigeria nothing is done to halt its practice. I am fully aware that this practice predates the spread of Islam to these areas but my issue is not in that regard. It is with mass practice of these mutilations in Islamic culture...not the sweetness and light of the very few Islamic scholars commentaries you may be able to dig up. Islam being such a misogynistic religion I can only see its practice spread as Islam spreads. Ohhh I can see you now quote me how Islam respects womens rights. Yeh Yeh Yeh... well I have heard that...but what I can see is very different. Like I have stated now several time I believe I dont care what it says in the book...its whats happening on the ground I look at. Now you , since you love being so scathing of my lack of research, provide me with all the prosecutions under Islamic law of those that have performed these mutilations, after all there are 1000s happen every day. There in lays the REAL evidence of whether or not Islam is tolerant of such practice. You should be able to provide me 1000's of cases if Islam truly does not tolerate this butchery.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

It wasn’t meant as an accusation, I’m sorry if you read it as such. It was meant as an analogy, a suggestion of a concern that such a perspective may be a denial of something real.




It is my current belief that the universe is constantly being constructed by my mind, in every changing moment. As it is for everyone. It therefore can be changed in an instant.




s.

Hi Snoopy,

I never was offended in the slightest...quite the contrary. It did make me stop and think about something a little deeper, if I recall right. I think that thread was the one in which I was arguing all religions need deleted from our collective psyche. And so you made a valid motion to declare that there is some good in some of them. I ebb and flow on the issue in my own mind. I dont want to deny the comfort it can bring, the good it fosters. Yet time and time again I see instances where maybe the cost of that is just too high. But, all said and done, religion is not going away...my pipe dream means nothing.

Tao

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hi Snoopy,

I never was offended in the slightest...quite the contrary. It did make me stop and think about something a little deeper, if I recall right. I think that thread was the one in which I was arguing all religions need deleted from our collective psyche. And so you made a valid motion to declare that there is some good in some of them. I ebb and flow on the issue in my own mind. I dont want to deny the comfort it can bring, the good it fosters. Yet time and time again I see instances where maybe the cost of that is just too high. But, all said and done, religion is not going away...my pipe dream means nothing.

Tao

Hi Tao

I can see the reasons that you have for the deletion of all religions perhaps, but I can also see reasons why they exist and why they can be beneficial to individuals and societies. Your opprobrium seems to focus mainly on the Abrahamic religions; why is that - relative knowledge of them compared to others?

Also: are you still working for FotE? Did you see the Big Questions programme the other Sunday with Prof Dawkins? And have you read any Sam Harris? How much derailing is that?!!

s.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi Tao

I can see the reasons that you have for the deletion of all religions perhaps, but I can also see reasons why they exist and why they can be beneficial to individuals and societies. Your opprobrium seems to focus mainly on the Abrahamic religions; why is that - relative knowledge of them compared to others?

Its not so much that my knowledge of Abrahamics is greater, (Judaism for example I only have the most sketchy details of), but because Christianity and Islam are the two biggest and most dangerous / divisive religions that by their inherent nature allow radicalism to highjack them. Hard to believe you could ever get a radical Janist or Taoist to strap a suicide belt to his mentally incapable nephew and send him off to kill innocent people in the market. Having Tao in my handle here is no accident but I singularly and deliberately do not discuss that. The way that is spoken is not the way after all. So no, I am an ignorant yet opinionated Scot, like so many before me. My distaste and disquiet over religion as witnessed here is focused on two simply because they are the two most pressing problems.

Also: are you still working for FotE? Did you see the Big Questions programme the other Sunday with Prof Dawkins? And have you read any Sam Harris? How much derailing is that?!!

s.

Yes, still with FOE, and have been extremely busy with the Big Ask campaign. Friends of the Earth: The Big Ask


I did see it. lol, are you referring to the bit when he could have been paraphrasing one of my posts....or do you think I may have been paraphrasing him?

As for Sam Harris, No I am afraid I have not, I had to Wiki him to find out about him. Whilst I like this quote on religion; "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." , like Dawkins I feel a deep concern and antipathy toward anyone who is making a living evangelising...even when it is atheism. Though according to that biography he shuns that label. I think like many of us here we discuss things here that we do not discuss elsewhere. I work with Christians, Pagans, Buddhists, Atheists and maybe more and its rarely productive to get into debates on religion. People know I am an atheist and thats enough.

Tao

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hard to believe you could ever get a radical Janist or Taoist to strap a suicide belt to his mentally incapable nephew and send him off to kill innocent people in the market.

No but it might make some good comedy material.

I did see it. lol, are you referring to the bit when he could have been paraphrasing one of my posts....or do you think I may have been paraphrasing him?

No, nothing specific! I just thought it was like CR TV.

s.