Is it fair to insinuate about Islam?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

What does the BBC article say about diversionary tactics?

OK, you were the one who suggested that this witch hunt was a diversionary tactic. I said it was possible, and put the BBC article up to highlight just how much a spectacle public executions in Saudi Arabia are, and would make excellent diversionary tactics....you asked me what it contributed to the analysis....it seems that the red herrings are flying around here, aren't they?

{And I thought I had the corner on the fish slapping market around here.}

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

OK, you were the one who suggested that this witch hunt was a diversionary tactic. I said it was possible, and put the BBC article up to highlight just how much a spectacle public executions in Saudi Arabia are, and would make excellent diversionary tactics....you asked me what it contributed to the analysis....it seems that the red herrings are flying around here, aren't they?

You lost me. How does an interview with an executioner shed light on how much of a spectacle public executions are in Saudi Arabia ?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

You lost me. How does an interview with an executioner shed light on how much of a spectacle public executions are in Saudi Arabia ?

Did you read the article?

{I think I need more dark chocolate. Here, have some:}

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Did you read the article?

I did. So where does it say how many people attend these events?
Where does it say how often these events take place?

Thanks for the offer. I prefer dark chocolate coverred almonds.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I did. So where does it say how many people attend these events?
Where does it say how often these events take place?

from the article:

Back in 1998, when he carried out his first execution in Jeddah, he was nervous, because many people were watching. But now he no longer suffers from "stage fright," he explained.

"The criminal was tied and blindfolded. With one stroke of the sword I severed his head. It rolled metres away," he said, recalling his first beheading.

"There are many people who faint when they witness an execution. I don't know why they come and watch if they don't have the stomach for it," he said.

The Reuters article I posted about the egyptian executed for witchcraft said this:

Friday's execution takes the total number of executions this year to well over 120, compared with a record of 192 recorded by Reuters for all of 1995.

Hands Off Cain (HANDS OFF CAIN against death penalty in the world), a Rome-based anti-death penalty group, said there were 119 executions in the first six months of 2007. Only around 38 people were executed in 2006.

Thanks for the offer. I prefer dark chocolate coverred almonds.

That's what I'm munching on. I have 9 left. Err--make that 8. Err--make that 7...

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

from the article:

Back in 1998, when he carried out his first execution in Jeddah, he was nervous, because many people were ...

"There are many people who .....

What does "many" mean?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

[/indent]What does "many" mean?

Somewhere on my slave hard drive I have video footage of public executions and dismemberments in Saudi Arabia and I can say that the crowds that gather to watch are large. Into the tens of 1000's in some of them. I really do not see your point in picking issue with this though, a public execution or mutilation already defines what it is in the use of the word "public". The executions are only the tip of an iceberg of inhumane mutilations perpetrated mostly on the poorest, least educated and often mentally challenged individuals. So while I appreciate the object of this thread was some attempt at balance, you will not find it by attempting to defend the indefensible by picking round the edges of definitions.

In Saudi today there is lip service to pressure from the US to reform and moderate its interpretation of Islamic law. But that is all it is, lip service. Only last week a prominent Imam called for the beheading of two liberal writers who suggested that Muslims should be free to change their religion. Even as an atheist I respect it as a fundamental human right of anyone to choose his or her religion. Do you agree?

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Greetings Tao Equus. You wrote:

I really do not see your point in picking issue with this though, a public execution or mutilation already defines what it is in the use of the word "public."

I'm not sure why you see my asking for more information as "picking issue."

So while I appreciate the object of this thread was some attempt at balance, you will not find it by attempting to defend the indefensible by picking round the edges of definitions.

I'm not sure about this characterization either, Tao. Why would you say a good faith request for specific detail is an attempt to "defend the indefensible"?

Nor was I "picking round the edges of definitions." My question about the extent to which executions are public is directly relevant to the issue of social control. If the Saudi government is in fact trying to maintain itself position of power through terroristic means (which might make sense to you given your somewhat cynical political worldviews), then overt and systematic displays of punitive power would be expected on a regular basis to remind people who is the boss.

A less politically-oriented analysis would suggest that public executions serve the purpose of deterrence. Making these events public presumably increases their deterrent value. As you know, Saudi Arabia has a very low crime rate as compared to Western countries.

In 1990, there were only 15 executions in Saudi Arabia. In the US there were almost twice as many that year. The US has had capital punishment for some time. It's supposed to be a form of deterrence. In the US, executions are attended by persons who are not criminal justice personnel and in that sense these are "public" events as well.

Contrary to your characterization, my question was not about a definitional issue. It was about how public Saudi events are. For some people, the term "many" might indicate a count of 10-20, which could well describe the number of people in attendance at an execution carried out in the US. Obviously that's quite different from hundreds or thousands attending.

Btw, a BBC article mentions that beheadings are attended by "hundreds of people," which is quite different from your estimate of attendance being "into the tens of 1000's." Interestingly, reprieves generate more interest than the punishment: "cases of eleventh-hour clemency cause great interest and emotional outpourings."
BBC News | Middle East | Last-minute reprieve for Saudi killer

As for amputations, I have no data on the extent of those. I did find an article reporting that toward the end of last year there had been only one hand amputation in 2007.
Saudi Arabia chops off hand of Egyptian for theft - Middle East

Even as an atheist I respect it as a fundamental human right of anyone to choose his or her religion. Do you agree?

Yes, I agree. I personally believe they should be able to do so. I would add here that the Koran (Sura 2, verse 256) says: "There shall be no compulsion in religion." Rifat Hassan observed very succinctly that this "applies not only to non-Muslims but also to Muslims."

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Netti,

I apologise if I misinterpreted a request for clarification for something else.

I can assure you that a few of the Saudi clips I have have substantial crowds and the executions/mutilations all take place in open public spaces. They include beheading, hand amputation and penis amputation.

Last year, according to AI, 39 people were executed in Saudi. Amnesty states that one of the worst aspects of Saudi justice is that often the victims are children, migrants or liberals that speak out against Sharia and that they are routinely denied lawyers or interpreters. In addition to those 'liberals' that are actually executed thousands more languish in jails hoping that the King will commute the sentence. Saudi is not a nice place to speak your mind.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Tao, the Saudi human rights record is such that some peope have suggested that the Saudi government made Saddam Hussein look like a boy scout. It is estimated that half of the insurgents in Iraq are Saudi. Yet President Bush is sending Saudi Arabia billions of dollars of weapons.

Some of the specific claims that appear in your posts about the Saudi criminal justice system are unfamilar. It would be helpful if you cite sources with links.

[gp1628]

The problem I see with these discussions about "Islam" is that they tend to center on arabian countries. Most muslims are not in those countries. And most of the things I see people pointing to are much easier to associate with being part of the arabian culture than the islamic one.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by gp1628

The problem I see with these discussions about "Islam" is that they tend to center on arabian countries. Most muslims are not in those countries. And most of the things I see people pointing to are much easier to associate with being part of the arabian culture than the islamic one.

Agreed. See my Post #42, which is mainly about Indonesia being infiltrated by Saudi factions. There are also African Muslim countries which -- like Indonesia -- are predominantly Sufi Islam. The Wahhabi-Saudi brand of Islam that developed in isolation is largely alien to these Sufi Islam countries.

But the Saudi's are a big threat-- not because of their religious ideology, but because they have the US over a barrel -- that is, the proverbial oil barrel. Some observers believe that the US is actually fighting a proxy war against Iran for the Saudi regime.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Are you saying there have been other witch hunts in Saudi Arabia besides the one that was recently publicized?

There are certainly only 2 cases that I can find, however I think it is fair to say that numbers of executions per year in Saudi are rising rapidly. Some would say this is the influence of the west coming into Saudi and increasing crime rates but I believe it is simply political and turns attention from such issues as the new University being built that will house western professors and students. How do you show the fundamentalists this is not going to intrude on their conservative lifestyle?!!

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Into the tens of 1000's in some of them.

As far as I am aware they are generally watched by less than 50 people unless it is a big case (serial rapist or murderer) in which case they are very popular 'events'. I have watched a few video's where the witnesses do not even watch the execution, they stand around chatting and smoking.

I have to ask myself though if executions were public events in the UK or US how many 'looky-loo's' would turn up to watch? Just think about a fatal accident on the motorway and how many people get whiplash and eyestrain in the 10 mile tailback trying to see blood and bodies on the other side of the road?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Only last week a prominent Imam called for the beheading of two liberal writers who suggested that Muslims should be free to change their religion. Even as an atheist I respect it as a fundamental human right of anyone to choose his or her religion. Do you agree?

No doubt the same Imam would call for my beheading on a regular basis if he read this forum.

I listen to some far right US christian ministers making speeches about bombing the middle east and killing all the Muslims to rid the world of this threat but I never make the assumption that they speak for all Christians or the teachings of Christianity. I think that really is the point of this thread, that the media in the west is largely so biased against Islam because of the speeches and acts of the minority. I so often hear that Muslims should distance themselves from these people and speak out loudly (I myself often say that) however how often do we see media reports that the Christian Church or indeed Christians have spoken out loudly against the religious right?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

They include beheading, hand amputation and penis amputation.

Sorry but never heard about penis amputations and can't find anything about it on the net. There is NOTHING at all that I am aware of in our faith that would justify this, I have never even heard of it in the weirder sects. A rapist or child molester doesn't have their penis amputated, they are executed.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Saudi is not a nice place to speak your mind.

Most of the countries over here aren't Tao but perhaps that is Netti's point, this is cultural and not taught by our religion.

Originally Posted by gp1628

The problem I see with these discussions about "Islam" is that they tend to center on arabian countries. Most muslims are not in those countries. And most of the things I see people pointing to are much easier to associate with being part of the arabian culture than the islamic one.

Very well said. It is understandable to a degree in that Arabic is still the language used for our faith and Islam was 'founded' in the mid east so there will always be an association but people need to understand that the mid east is a nest of vipers when it comes to politics, even in the more progressive countries.

Egypt is a country with over 90% Muslims and I watch women dressed in everything from full niqab to mini skirts and flowing hair but if a man stands in the street and shouts that President Mobarak is corrupt he will not collect £200 on his way to be tortured in jail usually on charges of being a member of the Muslim brotherhood (the fact that he is clean shaven and wears knock off armani hardly registers with anyone) but using religion for political gain is a normal practice here.

[Tao_Equus]

Netti,

Can you be more specific on what you wish me to clarify?

MW,

I'd be happy to email you the clips if you would like to see for yourself.

Tao

[Operacast]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I so often hear that Muslims should distance themselves from these people and speak out loudly (I myself often say that) however how often do we see media reports that the Christian Church or indeed Christians have spoken out loudly against the religious right?

BINGO!

Operacast (Presbyterian)