Is it cool to beat your wife?

[capthowdy]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

I took this from the "Women" thread in the islamic section. Since tensions were running high there I thought it best to bring my opinions on this matter to the comparative board.

I understand this is a direct translation from the Quran

Al-Nisa 4:34


I was shocked when I saw this. I was raised in a society where violence of any kind against women is totally unnaceptable.

I know that Islam is probably not the only faith who's holy book condones such things, but it is a problem that the Quran is considered to be the unarguable word of God. (i.e such statements in the Bible or Torah could be disregarded as ancient cultural ideosyncracies.

My opinion is that there can be no excuse whatsoever for a man to hit his wife. I am eager to hear other opinions.

Wow, I've read a little of the quran but I was aware of this part. Well in my personal opinion there is no excuse for the abuse of a woman, I was raised in an abusive home. i have also seen abuse in other homes, there is no excuse. Yeah some people say ..."well my wife punched me in the face"....I say suck it up and be man and get over it. My opinion is that abuse is wrong in any circumstance, and if you feel the need to hit the woman you're with......think about what is the cause of her acting in way that makes you want to resort to violence and you'll often find it's your fault. So no it isn't cool to beat your wife.

[Quahom1]

The "Rule of (the) Thumb" went out of fashion a hundred or so years ago in the US.

One could not beat their wife with a switch of Hickory with the diameter wider then one's thumb, nor longer that three feet.

But it was there as a law. And it was a law that went back centuries, and back to Europe.

Kind of hard to "thumb one's nose" at the practices of another, when one used to recently do the same thing.

I have to smile when young men and women get into this discussion (the younger ones than me). They don't realize that less than 85 years ago, women couldn't even vote in the US, let alone hold property (as a rule, but there were exceptions).

Up until the late 70s, early 80s, a man could take his belt and beat the living daylight out of his kids if he felt they were out of line, and no one would bat an eye over it.

If the father wasn't around to catch a kid doing wrong, and a neighbor did, that neighbor was expected to "discipline" the neighbor kid on behalf of the kid's parents.

I know, I got my butt whooped by many a neighborhood fathers and mothers in my youth, then got it again when my folks found out. (I think they compared notes to whooping techniques that worked best).

If the Qu'ran is followed to the letter of the law, then even though it may sound degrading to western ears and eyes, the fact is it has been practiced in this "genteel" fashion for about a thousand years longer than the western ways were conducted, prior to this century or so of "enlightenment".

I wouldn't jump so quick to judge others, for what we haven't mastered, yet profess to be.

On the other hand, it is not cool to beat anyone. Nor is it cool to mess with their minds. Beating anyone is not "MASCULINE", or macho, or manly. In fact BEATING someone is a childish, immature action, to get one's own way, post haste. Those that resort to beating others are an insecure lot.

And when I say beating, I mean just that (physically damaging body and/or mind and/or spirit of another, in order to have own demands/desires/wishes complied with). That is also called Abuse. For that, there is no excuse.

v/r

Q

[Paladin]

Hi Q, Your'e looking well, haven't you lost some weight?

Thank you for your message it is right on time. Hopefully the human race is beginning to move past the point where violence is an option in any situation.
It may seem like a dream, but I believe it to be the brass ring we should all be reaching for. When I left the infantry, and put my rifle back in the arms room for the last time, I vowed never to raise my hand in anger to another human being again. I still believe in defending myself, or loved ones, but not in anger.
As a people we are taught many wonderful things and our technology is incredible yet we still have little idea what to do about our emotions.

Peace

Mark

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hi Q, Your'e looking well, haven't you lost some weight?

Thank you for your message it is right on time. Hopefully the human race is beginning to move past the point where violence is an option in any situation.
It may seem like a dream, but I believe it to be the brass ring we should all be reaching for. When I left the infantry, and put my rifle back in the arms room for the last time, I vowed never to raise my hand in anger to another human being again. I still believe in defending myself, or loved ones, but not in anger.
As a people we are taught many wonderful things and our technology is incredible yet we still have little idea what to do about our emotions.

Peace

Mark

Yes, nice to dump the baggage one carries (especially when realizing that the baggage is old and useless).

Paladin, I do not equate national defense issues, with domestic battery/abuse/mind games, however. And as such, I don't think we should go into that here.

War should not be conducted within the home and hearth. That should be safety and "sanctuary", for families. Battle will be conducted upon the "field" away from "home".

There is a distinction.

v/r

Q

[Paladin]

Actually Q I wasn't speaking of national defense at all, Just relating a time period when I decided to change my mind about how I was living and what my approach to others should be. I think that if we as a people had a greater degree of emotional intelligence domestic violence would diminish, which is why I made reference to it.

BTW so very good to see you!

Mark

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Actually Q I wasn't speaking of national defense at all, Just relating a time period when I decided to change my mind about how I was living and what my approach to others should be. I think that if we as a people had a greater degree of emotional intelligence domestic violence would diminish, which is why I made reference to it.

BTW so very good to see you!

Mark

Ditto dude!

I understand your point. I was making my point about the difference, because others might not get the nuances that we were dancing with...

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Hello, and Peace to All Here (except for wife-beaters)

In reading back over this thread, I found a comment that just hit SO home with me:

Originally Posted by Bandit

i guess you could beat on your wife. just be prepared to have an iron skillet bounced off your head or be run over by the family car.

My aunt May who weighed a little less than 100 pounds all her life had a real working knowledge of the cast iron skillet.

Guess I just thought that since I found this thread and this post at this time, I would just post Bandit's comment in case he is still around somewhere....

Good one, Bandit--don't drive too fast.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello, and Peace to All Here (except for wife-beaters)

In reading back over this thread, I found a comment that just hit SO home with me:



My aunt May who weighed a little less than 100 pounds all her life had a real working knowledge of the cast iron skillet.

Guess I just thought that since I found this thread and this post at this time, I would just post Bandit's comment in case he is still around somewhere....

Good one, Bandit--don't drive too fast.

InPeace,
InLove

Hmmm, I think he meant "DUCK", or "Get the hell out of the way!"

He is telling the truth, though it sounds funny...it is not. It hurts.

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Hi, Peace---

Well no, it wasn't funny for Uncle Adam, but he didn't go to jail, and he didn't die that day, and he never beat her again.

(Edited to add: Maybe I should mention that May and Adam were my great aunt and uncle--never had the "pleasure" of meeting Adam and "the boys" . I come from roots that if I told you about, you might think I was tellin' stories. I can tell stories, but LOL--I don't need to make anything up )

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi, Peace---

Well no, it wasn't funny for Uncle Adam, but he didn't go to jail, and he didn't die that day, and he never beat her again.

(Edited to add: Maybe I should mention that May and Adam were my great aunt and uncle--never had the "pleasure" of meeting Adam and "the boys" . I come from roots that if I told you about, you might think I was tellin' stories. I can tell stories, but LOL--I don't need to make anything up )

InPeace,
InLove

Hey, I'm related to a popular singer in the US. Never met him, but none the less the blood in our veins is from the same forefathers. (And he and my dad could be brothers, by the look of their faces, voice timber/tone and body build). So tell your "stories".

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Heh-heh--project has begun. Just trying to decide what my pen name (and all the characters' names) should be so that some of those fryin' pans don't come my way

[Bi Dhikri Allah]

You also have to look at the context of the revelation, the time period and the state of affairs of women then.
Back then, women were looked as property-that was it. THey had no right to vote or to speak up when the husband made decisions. They couldn't work and they were not respected at all.
When Islam came around, Allah made it an obligation for the women to get an education and required their say in their own marriage affairs. They were told to cover themselves, certainly not a manmade law! So much respect was given to the women after Islam, subhanAllah. Women were allowed to own property and inherit property and vote, make money, divorce, etc.

When that verse was revealed, Allah actually placed restrictions on the men and not the women.
It was recognized that men couldn't just stop beating their wives if they were used to it for so long, so instead of causing rebellion by outright abolishing it, Allah placed soo many restrictions on this act that it hardly ever ever comes to it being crucial without some other form of action first.
The beauty of this is the women, on the other hand, have no restrictions whatsoever and even if someone wanted to place restrictions on the women today, they couldn't!

[InLove]

Thank you, Bi Dhikri Allah for your post. This is what I have understood in reading the Q'uran, as well, but not being a Muslim, and so not well-versed enough in Islam to answer very well (or sometimes even to ask!), I haven't known what to say.

InPeace,
InLove

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I do not understand, and this is my fault I am sure.

I am under the impression that the Quran is the indisputable word of God, could someone confirm or dedy this please.

If this is so, then how can we take what is said in any context other than our own lives. Surely God would not leave his holy word in such a way that it can only be understood if the reader has a firm grasp of Arabian cultural history.

I am not attacking anyone here, please, I want to understand.

[InLove]

Hi, Fifth--

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

I do not understand, and this is my fault I am sure.

I am under the impression that the Quran is the indisputable word of God, could someone confirm or dedy this please.

If this is so, then how can we take what is said in any context other than our own lives. Surely God would not leave his holy word in such a way that it can only be understood if the reader has a firm grasp of Arabian cultural history.

I am not attacking anyone here, please, I want to understand.

I am going to attempt an answer, but it will probably be a bit clumsy. First let me check--what board am I on? (Scrolling up...okay, I can post--can't be too careful about that!)

Just as in Christianity/Judaism, Islam has gone through historical changes. We can read about some of these changes in the respective holy books. That does not mean that God/Allah nor the truth changes. It just means that the original plan allowed for--how do I put this?--perhaps "pre-planned change" in the hearts of believers?

Okay--told you that was going to be clumsy. Maybe someone a little more adept at this can also answer???

InPeace,
InLove