Is Islam actually peaceful?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

well let me say this about that...

having lived in a Muslim country, i can assure you that there was no shortage of music on the radio. we didn't have television and the radio wasn't in a language that i spoke yet music was being played continually.

with singing as well.

then again, as it is so often stated, there are no "real" Sharia states in existence any longer and haven't been since Uthman, as near as i can tell.

holding an idealized and romantisized notion of the past isn't the best manner to gain an actual understanding of that period of history, in my view.

in any event, i also happen to have a CD of Arabic music which was recorded back in the 1940's as an historical record of Berber and Arabic folk songs.

besides which... music is math and Muslims have no particular issue with mathmatics

metta,

~v

[Zaakir]

music is haram, there are many muslim singers and bands too. there were arab folk songs, there is music played in arab countries except in some areas, such as makkah i hear, possibly medina. but just because music is haram doesnt mean people will not listen. its a sin not to go to church for example on sunday, yet out of about 100 christian people in my year at college, and about 50 christians in my family there are about 4/5 honestly that go to church on sunday, they know that sunday=church day but do they bother?muslims have to pray 5 times a day, does this mean everyone does?not everyone follows every rule, me included, i listen to music sometimes, it doesnt mean its right.

[bananabrain]

reading that, by a scholar, tells us that music is haram. is that enough evidence for you?

but i've just shown you another eminent scholar who says the opposite. so do muslims agree with each other or not?

life isnt boring without music...i have the words of my lord...why should this life be graet, its merely a short test, that has the same time period of about half a day in paradise

ok then. you are of course welcome to take this view, but oh deary me how terribly depressing. go on then, have a miserable life, because paradise will be great... sheesh. how i love the saudi bankrolling of islamic education.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Zaakir]

ok..well thanks for telling me its boring...and that the here after will be great...sheesh...your not muslim so i dont see what this has to do with you really...this life isnt meant to be great, its meant to be a test, and the hereafter will be amazingly unspeakable of.one of my close friends is a mufty which means he is very very high in islam, he can pass islamic laws etc...he agrees music is haram, as do every muslim i have spoken to....i dont see why you argue..its my religion and way of life yeah?so argue all you want, but it doesnt matter becasue youre not muslim...the quran states what i said...luqman 31:6

[bananabrain]

your not muslim so i dont see what this has to do with you really...

because you're making these statement on an interfaith dialogue board, which implies that you are interested in dialogue. perhaps what you are really interested in is self-justification.

i dont see why you argue..its my religion and way of life yeah?so argue all you want, but it doesnt matter because youre not muslim

i'm arguing because it seems to me obvious that there are muslim authorities and scholars that disagree with you and your teacher, so for you to maintain that there is but one correct position is patently ridiculous. if your attitude is that non-muslims by definition have nothing to tell you or teach you, then i don't see why you're wasting your time here, unless you're trying to convert people.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Zaakir]

its interfaith i know...but to find about other faiths?i dont tell you how to be a jew..you ask any of the muslims you know whether they would play music outside the mosque...im sure, and i hope the answer would be no...before i was muslim, my friends did this as we passed a mosque...just becasue some scholars say its allowed doesnt mean in my belief it is...some muslim scholars will beleive that Muhammad s.a.w wasnt the last prophet of Allah s.w.t...in a different sect...so some muslim authorities may disagree...maybe because they value culture...maybe they dont want to give up music...some people i know dont think its necessary for women to wear a hijab!some scholars say it is, some say its necessary to cover the whole face...at the end of the day, from the Quran and hadith, it shows music is haram, except nasheeds...still lets just say non of that was telling us music is haram....knowin every muslim has to memorise the Quran, do a minimum of 5 prayers a day, do their zhikr etc, if you listen to music it is a fact that the music will replay in your head during the day, maybe when you're praying, or reciting..i just come back from a jamat, an stayed in mosques for a week, and mobile phone ring tones were not allowed, because they have a musical element to them..other reasons why music can be haram....i would not want my wife or daughter or mother singin, for other men to hear the beauty of her voice, as this in a musical singing sense is forbidden among scholars...as for males, its not as negative, but still not allowed, look at the music we have today, full of obscene remarks and foul language..not very healthy for the mind is it!there is a punishment for music as told to us, this is having molten lead poured down into your ears, also you are letting youself loose the opportunity to hear Allah s.w.t recite the Quran in paradise...whether music is haram, is similar to whether shaving is...many people say you dont have to grow a beard...when we do in islam..i take it you disagree with me here too!anway, i have explained my views, i mentioned an ayat before...can i just say though please,just becasue some of your friends listen to music, doesnt mean its halal...most of my friends do, most dont have a beard, or wear their trousers above their ankles...yet they know these things are what should be done...i myself dont follow these..however, i have stopped music!and got a bit of beard, but i know theyre what i should do, so i will in the future, but at the moment i am not strong enough, im weak , we all are, so sometimes we can have our own beliefs/thoughts over the thoughts that are actually right...id rather we stop talking about this now if you argue, becasue its not godd to argue or get annoyed, so i hope you will forgive me if i acted like a prat anywhere!

salam

[Azure24]

I remember i was at the Islam board last month, where i find some muslims offending christians, i decided to get involved not by arguing but expressing my veiws and as a result christianity was badly criticised even though i did not say a bad word about Islam.... Time for some revenge!

Originally Posted by Zaakir

you ask any of the muslims you know whether they would play music outside the mosque...im sure, and i hope the answer would be no

I no know some young muslims and they do play music outside the mosque (asuming you meant when there not in mosque rather than literally outside the mosque) and if you mean when their not inside the mosque then you might as well say they don't listen to music at all.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

i would not want my wife or daughter or mother singin, for other men to hear the beauty of her voice, as this in a musical singing sense is forbidden among scholars...as for males, its not as negative, but still not allowed,

Why is it not as negative for males? Inequality among the sexes in Islam perhaps? You won't let your daughter or wife sing, why? Is it because Allah told you to.....How sad (i don't mean this negatively i mean this literally). So what if other men hear the beauty of there voice isn't that the point?

Originally Posted by Zaakir

look at the music we have today, full of obscene remarks and foul language..not very healthy for the mind is it!

Your being inconsistant, you say if you judge a small group of then you can't judge them all. Then what do you say here?

Originally Posted by Zaakir

there is a punishment for music as told to us, this is having molten lead poured down into your ears,

You are joking right? Because if you aren't i am deeply worried. Recently flights to and from England and America have been cancelled and the airports in England are on red alert because of aa terrorist threat. With those kind of things being practised it is hardly surprising that these things are happening.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

so sometimes we can have our own beliefs/thoughts over the thoughts that are actually right

Over the thoughts that are actually right? You said this when mentioning your Religion's rules. I have a question why do you belive what you belive? If it is because of what someone told you or something you read. Then what is the difference between your beliefs and something that is "actually" right and how can you be sure that "actually" right is actually?
You are a former Christian i'm correct, this i have no arguments with since i believe for somone to truly understand faith you need a contrast not just understanding to a single idea. But what made you convert?

Originally Posted by Zaakir

i hope you will forgive me if i acted like a prat anywhere!

You are forgiven.

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Why is it not as negative for males? Inequality among the sexes in Islam perhaps? You won't let your daughter or wife sing, why? Is it because Allah told you to.....How sad (i don't mean this negatively i mean this literally). So what if other men hear the beauty of there voice isn't that the point?

Just a comment--Orthodox Judaism is that way too. A woman is not permitted to sing in the presence of men. The reason in Judaism is that it would make the men sexually aroused, which would be sinful. It's not a concept I agree with (it's one of the several reasons I would never be Orthodox), just acknowledging that Islam isn't the only religion like that--Some parts of Judaism are like that too.

[jiii]

juantoo3-

I don't really think that Islam is inherently intolerant or subtly influences one toward violence and persecution. Intead of asking if "Islam is peaceful", we might try to ask if "Islamists are peaceful". Islam is a doctrine, and at that, a doctrine that DOES seem to suggest the same general characteristics of love and compassion found in other world religions. Whether or not a violent person, or a violent society, adopts Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever, they will still tend to be violent.

Consider that samurai used Zen discipline to kill. Crusaders used Christianity to kill. Inquisitors used the idea that their victims were going to go to Hell if they were not tortured to validate doing just that. The bottom line is: violent people are likely to interpret and act upon religious ideas in ways that they believe validate themselves. I do think that much of the problems in the Middle East are because society has become very violent in that place. This may have to do with money, food, culture, politics, and psychology...it may have to do with change in general...and all of these things may ultimately relate in some way to religion...but I don't think it's actually the doctrine of Islam that inspires this. Terrorists and fundamentalist, warring groups are inspired by their own animosity and hatred. The fact that they try to justify their actions with their religion means only that they are content to "use" their doctrine to validate whatever they feel like doing, no matter how selfish or destructive.
Consider the Roman Catholic Church.

For a long time, the RCC was a scourge of Europe...genocide, inquisition, people getting burned at the stake. Those were some wild days in the history of Catholicism. But it really wasn't the Catholic doctrine that caused this. It was people calling themselves Catholics that were paranoid or power-hungry.

By and large, Islam is a peaceful religion. Of course, nobody ever got much press coverage for being good , but they get more airtime than Cronkite for being bad. Thus, that's how we usually hear about them acting.

There was a time when countries all over the world probably took one look at the madness going on in the Roman Cathloic Church and thought, "WOW! They have some serious issues!" Turns out, though, that all of that rampant violence on the part of the RCC had much more to do with political, social, and economic climate, than it did with Catholicism. Catholicism was used as an excuse.

-jiii

[Zaakir]

juantoo3....music is haram,...end of...i wouldnt wnat my wife or daughter (when of puberty age) to sing, becasue men can find a womans voice attractive, things lke rape are controlled and caused by men, islam teaches modesty.the punisment for listening to music is that after death, no punishment mentioned in this life, unless Allah s.w.t decides, but after death if you are not forgiven, this is the punishment, terorism...cheap shot!LOL..pathetic really..im against it as much as anyone, even more than i was as a non muslim...
what made me REVERT to islam:
christianity allowed me to drink, go clubbing, have a girlfriend....allowed me to waht ever really. its hard to stop there...for example, for someone to become an alcholic, he has to start somewhere. islam forbids alchol, so prevents this happening, christianity allowed me a girlfriend, but no sex...yeah right...i was drinking, having sex, god wasnt in my daily life, except the odd occasion, but i didnt feel a spark to christianity. i strated becoming a strict christian, but didnt feel asif anything helped me, no rules really, or if there were they were daft like no stealing, which are easy to follow...go church once a week...but where was my sacrifice to god for my life, for my reward of heaven, what was my life about...getting drunk, dancing, etc. being more involved in christianity, which was my only option as i could not consider or think about another faith, i read the bible, got confused, so many different accounts of different events, the old testaments main be;eif and purpose is abolished in the new testament...this beleif is stil held by the jews, but demolished by the christians, this is that there is one god,a divine UNITY, no partners. christianity there are 2 partners of 'the father' being the holy spirit and jesus. these have to be different, as jesus prayed to the father, why would he pray if he was 1/3 of god?why would he die if he was god, why would he be like a human?what was the christian purpose...to save us from sins we committed...sounds daft...if you kill someone, that persons family doesnt sacrifice someone else to forgive you...researching, i found many clauses and mis interpretations, lack of detail....i started to think why would the one god in the old testament lower Himself to a action the same of taht of His craetion, surely the craetion should be far far far moved from the actions of god?thinking of this, and the fact that i prayed to humans and to statues in church i thought what am i doing...and what am i doing to proove to god i love Him with all my heart, and to save myself from hell?why am i allowed to eat pork, when the old testament forbids?why can i eat meat on fridays?why dont women cover up?why do i not celebrate jewish festivals, if jesus was a jew?non of it made sense....then something made me look into islams beleifs....it sounded right..i didnt understand a lot, and didnt really think anything of the prophet Muhammad s.a.w, i thought a lot of stuff was weird and i didnt agree, but the focus on god was what i was looking for, as i researched more, and read the Qur'an i started to agree, and seeing how traditional islam is, and how similar it is to christianity, made me think more...after a long time i felt my heart bursting, needing to follow islam. since then, islam is my daily routine, when i wake up at 5 for prayer, for the sake of Allah s.w.t, untill i pray at night, and even when i sleep, i am praising Allah s.w.t, IF i say the dua, and sleep the correct way, the way i brush my teeth, eat, wash, bathe, when i go into the toilet, when i meet a friend,when i leave the house, get in the car, there are prayers (du'a's/supplications) to say to Allah s.w.t, making the action like a form of worship, becasue the act is being done in His name and with His blessing. so islam is about living this life for the sake of struggle (jihad), the sake of Allah s.w.t, doing all you can to gain His mercy, and to not gain His wrath, and to gain paradise, this is the way i beleive religion should be....aka...demanding, and not easy, as its a test..in islam you really are tested, in christianity i dont know any one taht feels this

ps....i beleive what i beleive because its right, it gives me this feeling every minute of every day that i really cannot explain, knowing all my actions are for the sake of god...knowing i love Him so much and the life style HE commands me to live by....my heart is so overcome by the love of Allah s.w.t and islam, i cannot speak of it..only Allah s.w.t knows how i feel!

[Zaakir]

hgk

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

ok..well thanks for telling me its boring...and that the here after will be great...sheesh...your not muslim so i dont see what this has to do with you really...this life isnt meant to be great, its meant to be a test, and the hereafter will be amazingly unspeakable of.one of my close friends is a mufty which means he is very very high in islam, he can pass islamic laws etc...he agrees music is haram, as do every muslim i have spoken to....i dont see why you argue..its my religion and way of life yeah?so argue all you want, but it doesnt matter becasue youre not muslim...the quran states what i said...luqman 31:6

I have a question Zaakir. What is the call to prayers by the Imam, from the Minaret? Is that not, "music"? Is not the "melody" of the caller, a "song"? Is that "haram"? I'm curious, because there may be subtleties that western thought miss. When I am home and hear the call to prayer from the local mosque, it sounds like music to me. It has a story, and a melody (haunting and thought provoking), and it is remembered long after the call has ceased (years after, decades after).

Please explain the difference.

v/r

Q

[Zaakir]

no it is not music or a song.it does not sound like music or a song, it has a kind of melodic tone, which is done when reciting the Qur'an and certain things during prayer because it is the words of god, that He has commanded us to say, so these parts are not just said like a converstaion, they have a meaning, we have respect for the word of god, so have to use it and recite it in a respectful and different way. the imam doesnt call the athan. you say its remembered years after...thats good...muslims are supposed to know it, it is basically telling us of the fundamental beleifs, it is not haunting, its just saing god is the greatest, there is no god but god, Muhammad is His messenger, come to prayer, come to success, god is the greatest, there is no god but god. i find a bells dull tone more haunting. a singer carries a tone, and varies the tone using many different notes, this is not done usually with the athan, it has no music applied, just a voice of one man, not singing. if an actual singer did the athan, it would sound so different, because it is not a song, it has the same kind of use as the bell on a church, you wouldnt call this a musical tone would you, unless it is, some churches do, some have a plain sound.

[Quahom1]

[quote=Zaakir]

no it is not music or a song.it does not sound like music or a song, it has a kind of melodic tone, which is done when reciting the Qur'an and certain things during prayer because it is the words of god, that He has commanded us to say, so these parts are not just said like a converstaion, they have a meaning, we have respect for the word of god, so have to use it and recite it in a respectful and different way. the imam doesnt call the athan.

"It is a melodic tone, because it is the words of god...they have meaning, we have respect for the word of god, so have to use it and recite it in a respectful way." What pray tell is a melody? What is not a melody without a story or meaning? What is then, a song, but a melody with a story and meaning? Or do you mean only Allah determines what may be sung by the voice of man?

Where I come from, to sing (especially if singing praise for God), is a prayer ten times more powerful than just praying. Indeed to sing a story, does that not hold one more captive by the story, than do just speak of it? If you believe the existence of David, then what would you say to his dancing and leaping and singing before the Glory of God? Was he "haram"? Or is there a difference today, from then?

you say its remembered years after...thats good...muslims are supposed to know it, it is basically telling us of the fundamental beleifs, it is not haunting, its just saing god is the greatest, there is no god but god, Muhammad is His messenger, come to prayer, come to success, god is the greatest, there is no god but god.

Do not misunderstand me. "Haunting" does not mean bad, it means searching, beconning, calling out.

i find a bells dull tone more haunting. a singer carries a tone, and varies the tone using many different notes, this is not done usually with the athan, it has no music applied, just a voice of one man, not singing. if an actual singer did the athan, it would sound so different, because it is not a song, it has the same kind of use as the bell on a church, you wouldnt call this a musical tone would you, unless it is, some churches do, some have a plain sound.[/

I'm sorry you feel that way. I for one stop to listen to the 'song' of the Athan from the "minaret", just like I stop to listen to chuch bells (which have rhythm and tone), simply because the "athan" has no accompanying instruments, does not mean that "accapella" is not a song. As noted before, math and music are one and the same.

The Muslim call to prayer, may not be song to you, but it is to me. Perhaps again, I ask are you referring to "song" other than for God's Glory, as "haram"?

v/r

Q

[Zaakir]

the athan is not a song! its a call to prayer...nota song...but leaving this matter, yes singing about other than religion, i regard and islam does as being haram!some people even say some religious songs are haram if they have a instrumental piece to them, as only simple simple drum beats can be allowed