Is God omniscient or limited?

[pswfps]

Persona,

OK, you seem to be suggesting that God doesn't know everything I'm going to do. This means that God is not totally omniscient and so is to a degree limited. Perhaps I have taken the meaning of omniscience a little too literally then? To put what I said below slightly differently; perhaps God has given us little pockets of freedom (at His own expense) within the infinite omniscience of God?

Thanks
Paul.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pswfps

Now this makes some sense and is similar to what I've been wondering lately. According to Genesis, God made man in His image. I interpretted this as meaning that God made man with the capacity to know and love God and all that proceeds from God. To be in fellowship with God. In this sense we must have free will because God can hardly have a rewarding relationship with something which has no freedom of being. However, I cannot rationalise His complete and total omniscience with our own free will because in this case, from God's perspective we have none.

So then if we have free will then God must have, like you say, given up some of His omniscience to allow man to exist as a free moral agent? Otherwise there's no point to it. That is an act of great sacrifice on His part wouldn't you say?

If we allow ourselves to conclude this then it becomes necessary to believe that God is not omniscient and by extension, is limited. Sticks in the throat to say it though, doesn't it?

I like the idea of there being many possible pre-defined paths and that God has given us the choice to continuously choose between them. A little like a pinball game - no one knows for sure which paths the ball will take but that it must eventually go out of play. Similarly for us, there are lots of paths to choose but eventually, they all lead us to God?

Regards
Paul.

All roads eventually lead to Rome... all paths eventually lead us home.

To say that GOD is not omniscient does indeed taste like a bitter pill. But to say that GOD "gave up" some of His omniscience for our sake...now that makes sense. It historically appears that GOD is a regular self sacrificing deity, for Man's sake. From Christian perspective GOD even gave up His God head (put it aside), for a time, just to physically walk with man.

We all came from the "Guff", and we will each and all one day stand before the Creator. These are fixed points for Man, because we are finite. But it isn't the journey's end that GOD seems interested in, but rather man's journey itself. In this respect I believe that GOD has allowed Himself to be...surprised.

Because man's spirit (some say soul) is immortal, then it goes to reason that GOD has a strong vested interest in our developement. He is our biggest fan, coach, and cheerleader. But because He laid down the ground rules for this game of life, He will not break them. By His very nature, He cannot.

Oops, gotta go to work.

Have a great day!

v/r

Q

[pswfps]

Thanks Qua - I feel a little better about it all now.

What on earth is the "Guff"?

But because He laid down the ground rules for this game of life, He will not break them. By His very nature, He cannot.

I think He can because He can do anything. Rather He chooses not to. Perhaps the ultimate example of self discipline and control? I think that is part of what Christianity is about; the more you have the greater the responsibility is to do the right thing.

I still have some nagging thoughts though. For example, Judas Iscariot, God knew in advance what path he would take. This seems to dent the theory of God not knowing what decissions/paths we will each take.

Thanks
Paul.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pswfps

Thanks Qua - I feel a little better about it all now.

What on earth is the "Guff"?

I think He can because He can do anything. Rather He chooses not to. Perhaps the ultimate example of self discipline and control? I think that is part of what Christianity is about; the more you have the greater the responsibility is to do the right thing.

I still have some nagging thoughts though. For example, Judas Iscariot, God knew in advance what path he would take. This seems to dent the theory of God not knowing what decissions/paths we will each take.

Thanks
Paul.

I thought of that too (for a good part of the morning). But several forces were at work at the time if I recall. Peter nearly betrayed Jesus by attempting to use force to stop the arrest in the garden (which I think would have nullified Jesus' teaching of peace). The priests betrayed one of their own Rabbis (Jesus) by paying 30 pieces of silver. They wanted him dead. Judas accepted the silver that apparently was given to him under false pretenses. He thought like many others, that Jesus would literally lead an overthrow of the Romans, and set up a new Kingdom. Some theologians speculate that his intention was to force Jesus' hand, not to have him killed. Peter also actually betrayed Jesus later by denying he knew Jesus three times, out of fear for his own life. Thomas was said to have vocally doubted the return of Jesus after death.

The prophets of the old testement, and their writings are significantly different than the books of the new testement. Almost as if the stage had to be set for the future. Often the old testement describes man as "children" of GOD, however the New testement tends to lean toward the "sons and daughters" of GOD.

Jesus himself it can be argued, nearly betrayed his own cause. In a moment of utter terror at what was about to happen to him, he asked the father if "this cup might be taken from him...", then recanted and accepted the Will of the father, what ever that might be.

He then nearly did so again, when he accused the father of foresaking him at the hour of his death. But he pulled back from that chasm, when he said it was finished, and stated "Into thy hands I commence my spirit" (paraphrased).

I'm not saying I am right my friend, you've given me cause to think a little deeper into the what ifs.

It seems to me that man is at his most terrible, or most honorable, when he is at his weakest point. And at that point, mans' decisions change the world irreversably, for better, or worse.

Even the father changed His mind as scripture shows (at the last moment). The prophets did not write these as future events, but rather recorded them as historical actions (after the fact).

We (mankind) almost didn't make it past Noah, and the Jews nearly went extinct in the desert. Moses had no intention of going back to Egypt (he was an old man, full of fear for what was left of his life). Issac would not give into the angel, even though his hips were dislocated. If he couldn't beat the angel, he was not going to let go either. Man showed his potential by stalemating the angel of the Lord.

The Roman centurian astounded Jesus with his absolute faith, as did the old woman with ulcers who touched his robes. Jesus was not expecting these things (by his reaction to them). The Father was bemused by the stubborness of Lot, and royally ticked off at Sarah because she doubted Him in givng her a child in her old age.

It would seem that man has caused GOD's eyebrows to rise in surprise on quite a few occasions.

Somethings to ponder the next time we feel we can't make a difference.

Good thread, good debate. Great questions we're coming up with, eh?

v/r

Q

p.s. The "Guff" is the chamber of souls of the unborn. When the "Guff" is empty then the world as we know it is over, and the new world comes into being...at least that is how the legends go.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

i totally agree with what you have said. he can not be bored when there is this huge amount of people hanging-around foolishly, thinking that their destiny has been determined before they were born. and blaming the deity, of their actions. that'll make me angry though )

i am usually using the bible too, when i want to remember how a person should be. (not that much. lol.) strange one that is. but hey, they were all human beings werent they? couldnt even fly )

limited? i wonder what is exactly meant by that? in which terms of limitaishen (wow i made up a word) are we talking about? do you believe that his limits starts on our wills? do you find yourself limited?


xcuse my gendering the deity...




In a place that can not be described to you by the words that is known by your on-going concious, a conversation is taking place between the Devil and its Creator.

Ah, my friend, if you have children of your own, then you might rethink the part about getting angry with being blamed for their actions. Sad, maybe. Firm, probably, but not angry with your child who does not know better.

I recall when I was six, a birthday party given me. I got presents, and they were abundant, however, in my childish mind I thought there weren't enough, and I was mad, so I said "Is that all there is?" The party went silent, it was over. And I remember the saddest look cross my father's face, and I KNEW I messed up, and it was MY FAULT. Two things I learned that day: Give only the kind of presents to others, that have significant meaning to them (and you), and never expect anything from anyone. You won't be dissapointed, and you will always be pleasantly surprised and grateful.

As far as your questions about limitations...I think I missed something. If you mean do I think GOD refrains from interfering with our wills, then the answer is yes, GOD has deliberately limited Himself. If you are refering to GOD refraining from interfering with your hearts, then the answer is no, in that area GOD has no limits.

Example: Saul of Tarsus (who later became Paul). Talk about a dedicated, hardcore Christian exterminator (with extreme predjudious), Roman Citizen to the nth degree, and as willful as they come. It appears that GOD did not want to break that awesome will of Sauls, only change his heart. The result as we read was, same will, different feelings. Same drive and dedication, different objective and goals.

GOD makes it clear that He will not interfere with our wills, but also as clear is GOD's free manipulation of man's heart.

You might say that He in fact does force compliance to His ways by manipulating our feelings...

There have been a time or two in my life, when I had the "enemy" in my sights. My anger and "hatred" were so strong, I could have wiped them off the face of the earth and never looked back. It was war, and I was justified. And, I wanted to. But I chose not to. Why? Because I love life, even my enemy's life. And the enemy was in no position to harm me at the time. I think I was given the opportunity to see that I am more than the sum of my feelings. That sets man apart from the rest of nature.

If that is what you were asking, then the above is my answer (works for me anyway).

Have a great day.

v/r

Q

[Victor]

[font=Times New Roman][b][size=2]
I know of no mind that can comprehend the mind of the Almighty, be that God or the Universe. We are even oblivious to the nature of death and what follows in the afterlife... and this in itself becomes a matter of personal comprehension. We have only two things to use in creating a belief concerning this issue. 1) Personal experience be it physical or metaphysical; 2) that which others have conceived of and left for our consideration. (Biblical text, social practices, etc.) Life and death are the simplest of concepts and we have come to no proof of either except that, for a time, we seem to exist! We do not even know if we are an extension of a god-mind or individual, random collections of nuclear matter!

And what of good and evil? If we are prisoners of Karma, there is no such thing! If we are pre-destined we are lost in a cycle that is already complete! There are no choices! And this level of existence is not a certainty! And if we must concern ourselves with concepts of Paradise and Hell, what proof do we have that either exists? Who determines what punishment man will suffer? These are nothing more than human concepts. In the end we can debate and play our little games, but we are human and imperfect, and imperfection cannot conceive of perfection!

I am, in the Living Christ;
Victor

[Sacredstar]

Just sharing some other views.......

And what of good and evil?

All is within...is it not?

Augustine said in one of his letters that evil actually means less good, and I read elsewhere that the true translation of hate actually means to love less.

"If we are prisoners of Karma, there is no such thing!"

For me Karma is part of cause and effect, cause and effect is now proven by the latest breakthroughs in new science and new biology. Cause and effect is the natural law of the universe and can be found in scripture, when we look for it. You reap what you sow, is another example of cause and effect. From the studies that I have done of the letters between St Jerome, Augustine and others, I found a passage that relates to these spiritual laws that are hidden within texts. The passage stated that these laws were not made clear because at the time in Egypt people were killing and maiming themselves for transgressing the spiritual laws. So it was decided for the benefit of humanity, to not bring these to the fore. So what the bible calls judgement and retribution, I call cause and effect. Our own bodies are also a good barometer of this cause and effect for we are these universal laws.

Another good example is the history of great nations, as soon as they have tried to control and dominate others their civilisation begins to fall, once again cause and effect. Control and domination of any description is against spiritual law. So my view is wherever there is control and domination in religion it has not come from GOD but from man.

"If we are pre-destined we are lost in a cycle that is already complete!"

Well my experience is that free will of the soul chooses its journey pre-incarnation and free will also determines it once we get here, unless we totally surrender to the soul and divine will. With the Grace of GOD we are given a choice to honour GOD or not.

"And if we must concern ourselves with concepts of Paradise and Hell"

Both are within and the Pope went on TV to confirm this a few years ago.

"what proof do we have that either exists?"

Well I experienced hell and now I experience heaven on earth.

"Who determines what punishment man will suffer?"

The soul chooses pre-incarnation what it wishes to experience for purification of the soul.

"we are human and imperfect, and imperfection cannot conceive of perfection!"

Well I AM realising my perfection and perfection in all things. For beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder and when you see all through GOD's eyes everything is perfect! For we are co-creators!

It is man that told us we are imperfect not GOD.

"Parents are just the guardians of the soul, a precious gem born to shine. It is the guardians responsibility to ensure that gem is not reshaped but allowed to BE its natural state."

Soul and Spirit are two different things, soul is immortal and through evolution and purification unites with pure Spirit of GOD. Each human being as a soul and the divine spark of GOD within, this divine spark grows larger and larger the more we surrender control of human self to divine self.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
I AM ~ Christ is within me

[Quahom1]

Hello Victor and Sacred.

Very interesting points made here. I'd like to look at the first thought presented by Victor about man being unable to comprehend the mind of God or the Universe. I seem to recall that prior to the issue of the "Tower of Babylon", God commented about how man, if left to his own devices, could accomplish anything (but not neccessarily for the better). It seems to also be fact that man is the only animal that contemplates his own death (years before death is knocking on the door). Some animals of high intelligence appear to sense death being near, but man ponders it. And what of life? Besides man, is there any other animal attempting to re-create it artificially?

And life, is the pondering of the possible. Here is an interesting anecdote:

What constitutes basic life? On earth life requires oxygen as a catalyst, fuel to maintain the functioning life support system, and energy to drive or motivate that system. We need air to breath, food to maintain our bodies, and energy to automate our bodies...without any of the three, our support system fails, and we die. So, is FIRE alive? It requires the exact same things, or else it dies. It begins, grows, wanes, and dies out. My point is that man conceived of that abstract concept. No other earthly animal has spoken up or written about it.

Karma, could merely be the indirect application of Newton's second law of inertia, or a matter of physics, the pebble in the pond theory, action vs reaction.

Sacred makes an interesting point about evil being the absence of good. Again their is clue to this concept in the laws of physics. Cold is the absence of heat. Absolute zero is the absence of energy. Without energy, there is no life.

A brain dead human, can be physically kept alive (indefinately), but without energy in the form of Alpha through Delta waves generating from the brain, the tools needed for the body and "spirit" to animate the body and exhibit character, is impossible.

Scripture (Judeao/Christian) implies that we were once perfect in every way, but that we fell from grace, by our own choosing (free will). And with our fall from grace, came the infirmaties that plague us to this day. But it also implies that we willfully brought it upon ourselves, and that we can rid ourselves of the imperfection by turning back to the Creator. Now perhaps this will not happen in our own life times, but eventually mankind will make it back (with the proper amount of healthy humbleness...not the whoa is me kind, but rather the "I know who and what I am" kind).

After reading your thoughts, Victor, I am reminded of Ecclesiastes' "Nothing new under the Sun". His story was almost satyrical however, and you appear to be serious.

There is so much more to "life" than being born, breathing, and dying. And since we can conceive of the abstract, and Jesus stated that as we believe, so it shall be, unequivicably, then I submit we already know that there is an afterlife, and how we live now, will determine our "fate" then.

It is OUR choice, after all.

v/r

Q

[Victor]

Quahom1:
Thanks for your inspired post... I quote the following from it:"It seems to also be fact that man is the only animal that contemplates his own death (years before death is knocking on the door). Some animals of high intelligence appear to sense death being near, but man ponders it."

What Fact? We know nothing of the sort about other animals since our ability to communicate with them is almost nil! Animals generally communicate in a manner conducive to our own abilities. It says nothing of our understanding their language. (The porpoise, whales, etc) Consider the elephant who has a 'graveyard' already prepared for them. I would not dare to agree with you on this subject.

As to the rest, I am merely dealing in generalities. I happen to be a Christian believer; intellectually, spiritually, and in life experiences. There is, God! That Entity is dualistic in nature. That which is the power and strength of God is the Holy Spirit, the creator of all things, the giver of life. God IS, beyond that I cannot go. I have no difinitve knowledge of the Creator. I do have, however, an intimate, physical relationship with that Entity which constitutes a total of my life experiences in concert with that Being. To know of certain aspects of God I may turn to meditation, prayer, and study. To know that the infinite nature of God exists, I may go to Hubble to see the extent of, and the continuing reality of, a creation that is still in its beginning phase within the confines of our known universe.

That scientifically proven FACT illuminates me to the knowledge that all of this is not an 'accident' but rather a carefully planned and logically conceived
creation that teems with life and all of its inherent possibilities. It is NOT chaos or without definite order. Though mentioned, I do not totally believe that 'predestination' is a desire of the God-head (Living Entity) for it refutes man's ability to choose (free-will!) To restrict our total being, (mind, body and spirit) to the Pauline concept of pre-destination, is to limit the human spirit, and this I heartily refute! So in point, I am at odds with the 'Church.'

I agree that good and evil, hot and cold, etc are human concepts and may vary within the scope of individual consideration. Please consider this: In the beginning there was a void and all things were without form. This would lead us to assume that before the creation began, time did not exist. Time was part of the creation, unknown in form and meaning until MAN conceived of it to temper his own existence! Philo agrees, and who am I to disagree with one of the first centuries' greatest minds?

May we continue on other points? It is refreshing and I do not mind scholarly debate though I am ignorant in many things. I am, as always, yours:

[Sacredstar]

Dear Victor

"What Fact? We know nothing of the sort about other animals since our ability to communicate with them is almost nil! Animals generally communicate in a manner conducive to our own abilities. It says nothing of our understanding their language."

Well animal healers, animals communicators and people like myself would agree to differ with you. Animals have a wonderful way of communicating their needs and desires if you understand their language. And some humans not only understand their language but also their wisdom and the messages that they bring from GOD too!

In our innocence it is easy to judge.

Onwards and upwards

Sacredstar

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Victor

"What Fact? We know nothing of the sort about other animals since our ability to communicate with them is almost nil! Animals generally communicate in a manner conducive to our own abilities. It says nothing of our understanding their language."

Well animal healers, animals communicators and people like myself would agree to differ with you. Animals have a wonderful way of communicating their needs and desires if you understand their language. And some humans not only understand their language but also their wisdom and the messages that they bring from GOD too!

In our innocence it is easy to judge.

Onwards and upwards

Sacredstar

I definitely communicate with the animals that live with us. They may not reciprocate with "words" but they often understand what I'm saying and exhibit a significant sort of foresight and reason and even problem solving ability. They also empathize with our moods.

[Quahom1]

[quote=Victor]Quahom1:
Thanks for your inspired post... I quote the following from it:"It seems to also be fact that man is the only animal that contemplates his own death (years before death is knocking on the door). Some animals of high intelligence appear to sense death being near, but man ponders it."

What Fact? We know nothing of the sort about other animals since our ability to communicate with them is almost nil! Animals generally communicate in a manner conducive to our own abilities. It says nothing of our understanding their language. (The porpoise, whales, etc) Consider the elephant who has a 'graveyard' already prepared for them. I would not dare to agree with you on this subject....

...May we continue on other points? It is refreshing and I do not mind scholarly debate though I am ignorant in many things. I am, as always, yours:[quote]

Hello Victor,

Science requires that in order for a theory to become fact, three criteria must be met:

1. It must be observable
2. It must be repeatable
3. The results must be the same or similar each time.

I do know of one area where it appears to be a "fact" based on the three criteria Science requires, concerning animals. I submit to you the various primates who have learned to communicate with humans using sign language and special computers.

http://www.gorilla.org/

http://deafness.about.com/cs/signfea...inganimals.htm

http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/psych26/language.htm

Even though these experiments apparently reveal that certain animals understand past, present and future, as well as death as it occurs to others, and know when they are sick (even to the point of asking for a dentist to fix a tooth), they do not seem to ponder their own death in any sense. Either that, or they choose not to express it.

There is one other "experiment" in which a scienctest lived with gorillas (in this case) for many years. She became part of their "family" in the wild, until she was gunned down by poachers. I believe she lived with the primates for thirty years. In that situtation, she did not teach them sign language, she learned their language (or forms of expression).

I believe her name was Diane Fossey (it's been a long time since I thought of that).

Is it not written or implied in Genisis, that Adam "knew" all the animals, and named each of them (which God brought before man), at that no animal feared man? At one time, there seems to have been a mutual understanding between man and beast.

I too am at odds with the "church" (body politic, not the little one in town), and do not consider what you think to be errant. I just think differently ;-))

...and yes, I'd be happy to debate away with you 'till the cows come home!

v/r

Q

[Victor]

[b]There is no indication that Adam knew all the animals, he merely named them! Whether or not he 'spoke' their language is mythological treatise, there is nothing theological or anthropological to indicate such a medium was ever established. At that point, the 'animals' were supposidly vegetarian, they were not meat eaters. (Pardon my mispellings) Fossey did, in fact, establish contact with the mountain gorillas using their 'sign.' Whether she learned their 'spoken' language, I do not know. Whales and Dolphin still excel in communication and we are far from understanding them, nor have we managed to 'alphabetize' but a small part of their language. Of course, we have not even begun to decipher the 'celestial' tongue (the music of the spheres.) Sorry, but I am only about once in a while. Doing extensive research on Ephesians!

In the Living Christ, I am;
Victor

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Victor

[b]There is no indication that Adam knew all the animals, he merely named them! Whether or not he 'spoke' their language is mythological treatise, there is nothing theological or anthropological to indicate such a medium was ever established. At that point, the 'animals' were supposidly vegetarian, they were not meat eaters. (Pardon my mispellings) Fossey did, in fact, establish contact with the mountain gorillas using their 'sign.' Whether she learned their 'spoken' language, I do not know. Whales and Dolphin still excel in communication and we are far from understanding them, nor have we managed to 'alphabetize' but a small part of their language. Of course, we have not even begun to decipher the 'celestial' tongue (the music of the spheres.) Sorry, but I am only about once in a while. Doing extensive research on Ephesians!

In the Living Christ, I am;
Victor

The implication is that Adam had an innate knowledge of all the animals. To have an innate sense of something, or someone is to "know" it/them unequivacably (as defined by current day standards). I am no Adam, yet I understand the language of my dog, my cats, and my ferrets. I understand when they are hungry, when they are tired, when they are frightened, when they want to play, and when they just want to be held.

When the alarm goes off in the morning, they jump on me, lick my face, in short they know that the sound they hear means I should get up, and they see to it that I do.

They also know that I am over them. Have you ever noticed that an animal will not hold your gaze for long? They always turn their eyes away first.

I think Victor, that if I have an understanding of the animals in my life, then surely Adam did as well. And did not Genesis specifically declare that Eve spoke with the serpent?

I am intrigued about your reference to researching Ephesians. I would like to hear more upon your conclusions.

v/r

Q

[Blue]

Is God omniscient or limited?

Yes - if you have within your personal faith such a concept as an entity that is all-powerful

Limited? - Yes, if that is part of your perosnal 'God' concept.

The point I am making?
Simply, that God can be whatever you want your concept of 'God' to be.

The fact is surely that there is no evidence for a God beyond your personal Faith.
If there is evidence beyond your personal affirmation, where is it? What form does it take? It cannot be words written by human beings in sacred texts... because in the final analysis, they are just words.

Surely 'God' only exists in the heart (and soul?) of a believer. That requires no proof, nor necessitates proof, or evidence, beyond the personal feelings and affirmations of the believer. If this was not so, there would be no necessity for the word 'Faith', we would have material and concrete evidence beyond self.Is God omniscient or limited? God IS all-knowing, if you conceive of it so. God is limited, if you conceive it so. YOU are the validator. There are no validations beyond yourself and your feelings.
Is that not the case?