Is God omniscient or limited?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Andreas

I agree with the above except for one thing, God is not entirely omnipotent. God cannot do two things: He cannot create another God like Himself and secondly He cannot hate any of His own creations. You might also argue that God is beyond time and place as well as within time and place where it not that the latter is included in/subjugated to the reality beyond time and place anyway.

Andrew

Perhaps that is more indicative of our use of language, rather than of the actual nature of God?

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Perhaps that is more indicative of our use of language, rather than of the actual nature of God?

Do you think any part of our use of language can really capture the nature of God? Maybe anything we say on this subject is always from a limited perspective?

[mcedgy]

Hello Vajradhara – By faith I acquire everything including personal claims. Yes, I did see your Einstein quote and was really surprised to find out that he was a philosopher! It’s all relative I suppose! Are you pointing at the moon or has that turned into an obscene gesture? mcedgy

[Vajradhara]

Namaste mcedgy,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by mcedgy

Hello Vajradhara – By faith I acquire everything including personal claims. Yes, I did see your Einstein quote and was really surprised to find out that he was a philosopher! It’s all relative I suppose! Are you pointing at the moon or has that turned into an obscene gesture? mcedgy

i am the moon... and so are you

we both point to it as we are able... mistakenly thinking that the "other" is not "us"

maybe... we can help each other along our spiritual path... and, for me, that would be ideal

yes... it is all relative!

[StrangeQuark]

This is one of those questions that I've never been able to resolve for myself. I have a particular belief, and a philosophical stance I take that surrounds it, but there are still contradictions that are unsatisified.

It helps for me to accept that God does not have to be what I believe. After this acceptance, I still decide to to believe it anyway, which I think is the very definition of faith.

I am a very non-traditional "Christian." The things I am about to say may confuse the issue, but I'll give it a shot. I am not a monotheist (woah, how many Christians out there are suddenly screaming at me for that one?). Philosophically, I am a "panentheist." This implies, of course, that evil and imperfection are part of the same God I choose to believe is loving!

It is very difficult to reconcile this, and my understanding is naturally flawed. Still, it works for me. I think that in someway evil and imperfection were a natural result of existence and God had to find a way to contain it. Unfortunately, if this perception has any truth, he probably contained it all right here in nature! Following that, he needed a plan to "heal" the imperfections, or the wound in existence. This probably has correlations in several or more belief systems, including Christianity (the war in heaven and Lucifer's expulsion). Most Christians just don't look at it this way (nor do I expect them to).

In short, I believe that God is not perfect but he has a plan to achieve perfection.

Christian doctrines I do not accept include: eternal damanation, in which case I think evil might be too strong a word. But how any of this fits in with my "Christian" belief is another matter entirely.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Do you think any part of our use of language can really capture the nature of God? Maybe anything we say on this subject is always from a limited perspective?

More that when we use language to attempt to define God - then reveal the limitations of that definition - it is the words that are being criticised, rather than God.

[pswfps]

Not a reply to anyone in particular...

I think it's pretty clear that an omniscient god is incompatible with human free will. To be all knowing requires foreknowledge of all human activity, thus from the deity's perspective, all human activity is pre-determined. This in itself is fine but if deity then judges human activity as "good" or "bad" then we have quite a ridiculous situation. Deity is effectively judging it's own creativity as good or bad - judging it's own actions! But wait; omniscient deity is perfect and possesed of infinite wisdom and so cannot make mistakes. Ergo no point in judging.

In conclusion: If you consider that we have free will then deity is not omniscient and may be judgemental of human activity. Alternatively, if you consider that we have no free will (determinist) then deity can be omniscient but not judgemental. Omniscient deity is not judgemental OR judgemental deity is not omniscient.

Regards
Paul W.

[Thomas]

God's omniscience is born from the idea that God cannot be subject to any temporal condition, so God cannot be ignorant of the outcome of an action or event.

The idea however, that because God knows what will happen, or what we will do (for example), he has pre-determined the outcome, is not proven from the argument.

Pre-knowledge in God (an inexact phrase as there is no pre- nor post- condition) does not mean pre-determination precisely because such would invalidate the idea of 'freedom'.

The idea of 'freedom' at this level - the freedom of man in relation to God - necessitates the reality of 'choice', the First Choice, as it were, being to 'go with God' towards an end which lies beyond our ken, but which is Good (being God-ordained); or 'go our own way' which being other than that Divinely willed must necessarily be a lesser good if not actually evil - ie in direct opposition to God - and essentially illusory or empty by the fact that we cannot sustain eternally a 'reality' of our own manufacture.

So on the one hand we have Truth and Reality; Goodness and Beatitude, on the other we have Error and Illusion; Evil and Suffering.

And judgement follows accordingly

Thomas

[pswfps]

If deity is outside of any temporal condition then deity must exist in a single unchanging state across all moments of time. Fine.

If deity created this universe of space/time/energy then deity must be present outside of the universe also. Fine.

If an omniscient deity created the universe then such deity must by definition have known in advance the outcome of such creation - all suffering and wrongdoing included. Ergo omniscient deity is responsible for everything which transpires therein - including all suffering and wrongdoing. Further, if deity is omnipotent then presumably deity could have done things differently? In any case, it seems pointless for omniscient deity to blame a creation for it's faults when that creation had no say in how it should be created.

It does not seem possible for an omniscient deity to create beings which have independant free will of their own. In the eyes of deity, they are effectively judged before they are even created.

Regards
PaulW.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by pswfps

If deity created this universe of space/time/energy then deity must be present outside of the universe also. Fine.

sawadee PaulW,
would like to know why you think It must be out of this universe, think about the cocoons. dig, ... good. maybe the universe and everything is Its protection, but then a question might arouse from here "towards what/who/ewwww ?"

Originally Posted by pswfps

Ergo omniscient deity is responsible for everything which transpires therein - including all suffering and wrongdoing.

so that is to say my mom is responsible for everything i do, huh? interesting..

Originally Posted by pswfps

In any case, it seems pointless for omniscient deity to blame a creation for it's faults when that creation had no say in how it should be created.

what would you like to be created as? maybe nextime ; but then you wouldnt have the chance to think about these matters, do you?

Originally Posted by pswfps

It does not seem possible for an omniscient deity to create beings which have independant free will of their own. In the eyes of deity, they are effectively judged before they are even created.

first of all possibelness (?) is really a very earthly word, you cant use it for the maker. possibility suits better. try to commit suicide now, and do it. could you? you are never guilty till you disobey the basic rules, which is to respect and love. Ergo original sin is the biggest lie of all religious times.

sincerely my lord's...
EraiT

cogito ergo sum

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pswfps

If deity is outside of any temporal condition then deity must exist in a single unchanging state across all moments of time. Fine.

If deity created this universe of space/time/energy then deity must be present outside of the universe also. Fine.

If an omniscient deity created the universe then such deity must by definition have known in advance the outcome of such creation - all suffering and wrongdoing included. Ergo omniscient deity is responsible for everything which transpires therein - including all suffering and wrongdoing. Further, if deity is omnipotent then presumably deity could have done things differently? In any case, it seems pointless for omniscient deity to blame a creation for it's faults when that creation had no say in how it should be created.

It does not seem possible for an omniscient deity to create beings which have independant free will of their own. In the eyes of deity, they are effectively judged before they are even created.

Regards
PaulW.

Yesterday is a cancelled check, today is cash in hand, and tomorrow is a promisary note...(my dad)

GOD in His Omnipotent way gave Himself a challenge, with us. He knows what could happen (every infinite possibility, based on the infinite series of choices man has). Because He gave us free will, His Omniscience is challenged. He does not know WHICH path we will take, only which paths we can take. Even if man had only two choices each (yes or no). The number of potential outcomes are mind boggling! 6,000,000,000 living human beings with two choices each, times 12,000,000,000 combinations, times 12,000,000,000 more times...I think I made my point.

And if GOD is in fact skipping across the possible future realities (as any omniscient being can do), then He is by no means bored.

The Bible (my strongest reference point) does not say Man is doomed. It says if man goes a certain way, he will be doomed, and if he chooses another way, he will be saved.

Man's future is an open book, with blank pages yet to be written upon. GOD appears to be excited about the outcome (waiting to exhale comes to mind).

I can see no challenge to GOD's omnipotents, nor His omniscience.

Also, I see nothing wrong with a Christian view being considered "pantheistic"

There is GOD, all three parts of Him. Then there is the "Devil" (which means literally "Little god". The Supreme Being Himself acknowledges the existence of all, but asks us to choose. (again based upon Biblical reference).

This is a great thread !


v/r

Q

[PersonaNonGrata]

i totally agree with what you have said. he can not be bored when there is this huge amount of people hanging-around foolishly, thinking that their destiny has been determined before they were born. and blaming the deity, of their actions. that'll make me angry though )

i am usually using the bible too, when i want to remember how a person should be. (not that much. lol.) strange one that is. but hey, they were all human beings werent they? couldnt even fly )

limited? i wonder what is exactly meant by that? in which terms of limitaishen (wow i made up a word) are we talking about? do you believe that his limits starts on our wills? do you find yourself limited?


xcuse my gendering the deity...




In a place that can not be described to you by the words that is known by your on-going concious, a conversation is taking place between the Devil and its Creator.

[pswfps]

PersonNonGrata,

Quote:
Originally Posted by pswfps
Ergo omniscient deity is responsible for everything which transpires therein - including all suffering and wrongdoing.
so that is to say my mom is responsible for everything i do, huh? interesting..

LOL! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Are you suggesting your mother is the omniscient creator of the universe? All this time I've been searching for God and it turns out to be your mother!! I think I need to lie down for a while...

what would you like to be created as? maybe nextime ; but then you wouldnt have the chance to think about these matters, do you?

I don't know the range of possibilities - I'm not omniscient. Having independant free will would be nice. That is what I'm trying to understand - how can I have free will when deity knows already everything I'll ever do, say and think! There is no choice but to be according to the will of God.

[PersonaNonGrata]

raise your bigtoe, not now whenever you want to. look somewhere that you wouldnt look in normal circumstances (just a quick look, moving your eyeballs might to the trick too) do you think that is even written on your book of movements?

stop thinking, if you can, that the deity knows what you are going to do. how do you know he does?

you have the maximum free will one being can have. You are a human being in the first sight; can think and act, can act without thinking, you even have the choice of that. so as i mentioned if you have the right to commit suicide what else you want? In which ways do you feel yourself limited?




Immmmmm coming home, so you better get the party started... )

[pswfps]

GOD in His Omnipotent way gave Himself a challenge, with us. He knows what could happen (every infinite possibility, based on the infinite series of choices man has). Because He gave us free will, His Omniscience is challenged. He does not know WHICH path we will take, only which paths we can take. Even if man had only two choices each (yes or no). The number of potential outcomes are mind boggling! 6,000,000,000 living human beings with two choices each, times 12,000,000,000 combinations, times 12,000,000,000 more times...I think I made my point.

Now this makes some sense and is similar to what I've been wondering lately. According to Genesis, God made man in His image. I interpretted this as meaning that God made man with the capacity to know and love God and all that proceeds from God. To be in fellowship with God. In this sense we must have free will because God can hardly have a rewarding relationship with something which has no freedom of being. However, I cannot rationalise His complete and total omniscience with our own free will because in this case, from God's perspective we have none.

So then if we have free will then God must have, like you say, given up some of His omniscience to allow man to exist as a free moral agent? Otherwise there's no point to it. That is an act of great sacrifice on His part wouldn't you say?

If we allow ourselves to conclude this then it becomes necessary to believe that God is not omniscient and by extension, is limited. Sticks in the throat to say it though, doesn't it?

I like the idea of there being many possible pre-defined paths and that God has given us the choice to continuously choose between them. A little like a pinball game - no one knows for sure which paths the ball will take but that it must eventually go out of play. Similarly for us, there are lots of paths to choose but eventually, they all lead us to God?

Regards
Paul.