Is God omniscient or limited?

[Quahom1]

I believe that the "Saints" are much too busy to be worrying about us...after all that is God's job?

In my youth I was told that Mary would leave a window open, for those who could not enter the gates of heaven.

Now, I love the power of Moms, but please consider...saints, Mary, anyone but God, cannot judge us, nor can they bypass judgement on or in our behalf. We stand alone at the end.

Now, asking a person on the other side to petition, in our behalf, is not wrong. That is like me asking my Mom to tell my Dad what I think, when I can't tell him myself, or My telling my Mom, and my Mom going ahead and telling my Dad, without my knowledge or request. My point is, if you ask of a finite being, they might miss the request, then you feel dejected. So to remove that potential, ask of the infinite Being...

This is one of those times when you can and should bypass the chain of command, and go right to the top.

"Put your hand in the hand of the man from Galalie"...as the old song goes.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I believe that the "Saints" are much too busy to be worrying about us...after all that is God's job?

I don’t want to fight over the whole praying to saints issue I just wanted to state in my last passage that they where nothing like lesser Gods. But to this quote there is something that I don’t understand if heaven is timeless then how could the saints be busy. And if they have endless time to help people and they spent their whole lives doing it wouldn’t they still enjoy such a thing. I don’t want to argue about weather or not we should go up the chain of command so please don’t reply to that. It just doesn’t make sense that someone in heaven (saints) wouldn’t care about us.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by JJM

... It just doesn’t make sense that someone in heaven (saints) wouldn’t care about us.

I agree with you on the part about people in heaven still caring for us here. As for the rest JJM, that is just my opinion, nothing set in stone. I happen to come to that series of conclusions by comparing my religious upbringing with that of other demoninations, and passages in the Bible.

I am interested in hearing what others (like yourself) have to say...

The jury is still out, so to speak.

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

Don't worry about it, JJM - this is a place for civil and respectful discussion, not for hardcore debate and flames.

If you're not comfortable with discussing any particular topic, then no one will be allowed to draw you into it here.

And if you do feel like discussing something, then this is a safe place to open up your thoughts.

And welcome to comparative-religion.com, JJM - you too, Quahom1, in case I haven't greeted you already.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Praying to the saints: I can do that; I believe that. I just prayed to St. Christopher to help me solve the problem of poor idling and stalling with the car. So far so good.

But Christopher has been de-canonized. Anyway whoever is up there available to take over his job. But Christopher is the patron saint for voyagers; in this age of motor vehicles he should also be versatile accordingly for troubleshooting with car engines.

I can believe anything in the name of religion, except that I won't hurt others much less kill for it. And I won't die for it either.

And if the beliefs are contradictory, I mean the doctrines, not the practices unless in their respective schedules, I can still accept them on the basis of mystery.

However, if any religion requires you to hurt others even just by snubbing others, or to die for it; then it should not be for anyone. I draw the line there.

Susma Rio Sep

[JJM]

Thank you I,Brian for that warm welcome. But it’s not that I’m uncomfortable with the subject I just wanted to put emphasis on what my original post’s point was. It was a reply to this:

Originally Posted by Elizabeth May

If there are smaller gods then aren't they just like the saints?

I was just trying to say that saints are in no way like lesser gods. As for my opinion on praying to saints. It seems to work for me and I don’t think that in anyway it violates the second commandment unless you don’t realize what I’ve stated before. That is that they don’t actually do anything and only through the power of God are prayer to them answered. That is where the problem lies when people believe that the saints themselves through their one power answer their prayers. While I don’t really pray to anyone other than Mary because I don’t know much about the others lives. Usually if I pray to a saint I try to make some sort of connection to their life so because I haven’t taken the time to study many of them I don’t pray to many of them. If someone feels more comfortable praying to God himself that is perfectly OK. As for St. Christopher, wasn’t he de-canonized because it’s believed he never really carried Christ over a river? All that means is that they aren’t absolutely positive he is in heaven. Not that he defiantly isn’t. From what I’ve read of him and my personal belief I’m sure he is.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Are you Catholic, JJM? Because you have a graphic below your name -- an avatar they call that? -- that is a monstrance.

Here's a funny anecdote:

Once a bishop was putting the Sacred Host already inserted into the circular glass case inside the display cavity of the monstrance. He dropped the circular case with the Host already installed within it. The contraption fell on the altar, tripped over the edge onto the floor, and continued rolling down the steps onto the aisle and kept rolling toward the front door of the church.

”Somebody stop that darn thing”, he hollered.


I thought you were Muslim.

Muslims and Jews, they have the same attention for ritual and toilet cleansing by washing with water of their lower groin areas and functional apertures. Very hygienic, commendable, much better than Christians who limit themselves to wiping, and also occasion the slaughter of trees thereby.

Jews and Arabs, they come from the common forefather, Abraham, didn’t they? Why all that killing among the Jewish Israelis and the Arab Palestinians? How long is that family feud going to continue on and on?


Susma Rio Sep

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Are you Catholic, JJM? Because you have a graphic below your name -- an avatar they call that? -- that is a monstrance.

Here's a funny anecdote:

Once a bishop was putting the Sacred Host already inserted into the circular glass case inside the display cavity of the monstrance. He dropped the circular case with the Host already installed within it. The contraption fell on the altar, tripped over the edge onto the floor, and continued rolling down the steps onto the aisle and kept rolling toward the front door of the church.

”Somebody stop that darn thing”, he hollered.


I thought you were Muslim.

Muslims and Jews, they have the same attention for ritual and toilet cleansing by washing with water of their lower groin areas and functional apertures. Very hygienic, commendable, much better than Christians who limit themselves to wiping, and also occasion the slaughter of trees thereby.

Jews and Arabs, they come from the common forefather, Abraham, didn’t they? Why all that killing among the Jewish Israelis and the Arab Palestinians? How long is that family feud going to continue on and on?


Susma Rio Sep

Yes, I am catholic. I don't understand the remander of what you wrote. What does your "anecdote" have to do with the previous subject. Why did you think I was muslim and in what way does this discussion have anything to do with islamic and jewish people fighting. Are you just trying to change the subject. Any way I think that Jews and Muslims should imbrace the simularities in their faith and stop fighting. I have heard that Israel will only allow any one who is noe Jewish to be a citizen is that Correct? If so I understand the Palestinian anger.

[brucegdc]

I believe that Israeli citizenship is open to people of all faiths. In fact, there are (if I recall correctly) a half-dozen Arab members of the Knesset. Researching the applicable law (I'm an inveterate researcher) shows Israeli citizenship may be acquired in several ways - one of which is moving there permanently (as well as being born there). There is a glaring disparity, though, that any Jew or first or second descendent of a Jew automatically qualifies for citizenship if they so desire.

None of which brings this anywhere back on topic, and should probably be over in politics.

Now, back on topic:

Is God omniscient or limited? I don't think it matters so much (Santa Claus is omniscient - he knows when you've been bad or good, etc). Whether God is all-knowing shouldn't have much impact on our lives. All-capable (or omnipotent) is another question...

.... Bruce

[Adamante]

Nogodnomasters said:
So a whole knew concept must be introduced. The problem still exists, god who is perfect deliberately made an imperfect being. God who is good, created evil. God who is all powerful can defeat evil at any time, but does not. This is absurd.

I really like the way this was put. It's a neat snapshot of things I've considered as well, but this is much more organized than my own thoughts. Nicely done!

I also believe the answer to this question lies in our observation of our surroundings. I can't say for certain that any book with reference to any Almighty being is not partial to some way of thinking or believing that has little or no evidence to support it. I know I limit myself, but I have to follow the discoveries of science as we reverse engineer everything from our planet to the galaxy to the universe.

God does not have to be all-knowing to be the creator, but he must know enough. What is power to all of us anyway? Is he all-powerful? He can do anything? Can he create something that has free will, where not even he would know what choices would be made? If he can not create that, he is not all-powerful. If he can create it, he is not all-powerful. Either way, if he can create anything, then he can create situations where not even He would know the outcome. I think this is where man lay. But also, power can be thought of as strength...and perhaps there is little debate over the strength of a being who could create a universe as violent as ours. From light, to gravity, to stars, to black holes, and even the atom...His strength is not in question to me.

[Quahom1]

[quote=Adamante]Nogodnomasters said:
So a whole knew concept must be introduced. The problem still exists, god who is perfect deliberately made an imperfect being. God who is good, created evil. God who is all powerful can defeat evil at any time, but does not. This is absurd. QUOTE]

I opine that God who is perfect made a perfect being, capable of all things, including falling into imperfection. What was the ringer here? Free will. How do I come to this conclusion? NGNM, we understand the concept of perfection. We know what it would take to be perfect, BUT, we choose not to be, because perfection interferes with our want to do as we wish, as independent beings. It interferes with our own desires. So, for "selfish reasons" we choose to stay imperfect. Again this is My Opinion.

And I must ammend my previous statement about not depending upon saints for easing the pain of humans on Earth. I do believe in ONE saint, or the concept thereof. The patron saint of lost causes, and the namesake of this saint is on my most favorite hospital....St. Jude, of which I give to every chance I get. Anyone who favors little childrens' well being, and turns no child away, is ok by me.

[louis]

From Louis...

I've been told many times that human life is sacred
because we made in "God's image".

Which implies that we RESEMBLE God in some way -
that we SHARE some of God's characteristics.

But we are LIMITED beings and a God who resembles
us in any form would also be limited. Surely a limited
God would not be capable of all the stuff we atribute
to him ???

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by louis

From Louis...


I've been told many times that human life is sacred
because we made in "God's image".

Which implies that we RESEMBLE God in some way -
that we SHARE some of God's characteristics.

But we are LIMITED beings and a God who resembles
us in any form would also be limited. Surely a limited
God would not be capable of all the stuff we atribute
to him ???

Good day Louis.

We are as limited as an atomic bomb...or as limitless as a nuclear power plant.

We are biengs housed in corporial bodies, and as such currently have physical limits (which even today are being stretched). But our minds and imagination have no limits save what we enforce upon them.

God does not resemble us, my friend. We resemble God. There is a significant difference.

Example: During the cold war, the Soviet Union made a knock off version of the Mercedez Benz 450 L. They called it the Moscva machina. It resembled the Benz...until you drove it (or tried to start the engine). That is where the resemblence (sp?) ended.

My mother likened our resemblence to God this way...we have a mind, a body, and a spirit.

God is made of of mind (The Father), body (The Son), and spirit (Holy Spirit).

We are whole, when the whole of us is taken into account. God is whole when we take the whole of Him into account.

Ever notice how angry a woman gets when only her body is considered? She will say, "I have a mind and a spirit as well you know!..." In other words - "Get to know all of me!"

Anyway, the bottom line is we are a cheap copy of the original, and we need alot of work in order to run as well as the real thing. We need to be fine tuned, and given the substandard parts we have...that will take a life time. ;-)

v/r

Q

[Chewi]

"Pantheism itself is unable to consider the existence of Divinty beyond the immediate boundaries of the universe."

As a Pantheist, I define God as Everything. Not being bound by the universe. I would think that if there are multi-universes then that would be yet another characteristic of God. I'm not limited or unable. I simply define the Divine in a very all-natural way.

Also, the supernatural is only "super" until we as humans wrap our minds around it. Lightning was a tool of the gods until we understood its nature.

[Chewi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Good day Louis.

We are as limited as an atomic bomb...or as limitless as a nuclear power plant.

We are biengs housed in corporial bodies, and as such currently have physical limits (which even today are being stretched). But our minds and imagination have no limits save what we enforce upon them.

God does not resemble us, my friend. We resemble God. There is a significant difference.

Example: During the cold war, the Soviet Union made a knock off version of the Mercedez Benz 450 L. They called it the Moscva machina. It resembled the Benz...until you drove it (or tried to start the engine). That is where the resemblence (sp?) ended.

My mother likened our resemblence to God this way...we have a mind, a body, and a spirit.

God is made of of mind (The Father), body (The Son), and spirit (Holy Spirit).

We are whole, when the whole of us is taken into account. God is whole when we take the whole of Him into account.

Ever notice how angry a woman gets when only her body is considered? She will say, "I have a mind and a spirit as well you know!..." In other words - "Get to know all of me!"

Anyway, the bottom line is we are a cheap copy of the original, and we need alot of work in order to run as well as the real thing. We need to be fine tuned, and given the substandard parts we have...that will take a life time. ;-)

v/r

Q

I always rather enjoyed the story of how we were created in God's image. My question: In what way are we in His image? Taken at face value we should all look the same. Yet we're different. So we either assume that there are endless faces of God or interpret what is meant by "image".

Our imaginations are limited. They are limited to the filters of our own perceptions. This is why so many envision God as a white bearded grandpa-type on a throne of clouds and the devil is a man with horns and a tail. Mankind needs to feel associated to God and creates an image to fit the mold altered by that which is the only thing they currently comprehend.

I believe the question was, is God limited or infinate? That will depend on your definition of God. I beleive that God is infinate because anything that exsists is a part of God or a chacteristic of God. It's an intellectually lazy way out, but it seems right for me. To me, there can be nothing greater than God. So if it "is" it must be a part of that greatness. Remember when you were a kid and arguing with a sibling or friend, "No! I was first" "No. I was." "I was....to infinity." "No, I was to infinity plus one." Infinity plus one always lead to infinity plus infinity.

If God is infinate and I am outside of God, then that makes me the "plus one". And just like when we were kids, in hind sight, that just seems silly.

Chewi