Is God for us or for Himself?

[cavalier]

I have just been sent this article and would be very interested to hear you views.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/t...s_himself.html

The article condensed:

I would like to try to persuade you that the chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever. Or to put it another way: the chief end of God is to enjoy glorifying himself.

What is the impulse that drives the Almighty? What does he pursue in all his plans?
God did not leave us to guess in this affair. He answers the question at every point in redemptive history from creation to consummation. Let's survey some of the high points to see what he says.
Why did God create us? Isaiah 43:6-7, "Bring my sons from afar and my daughters ... whom I created for my glory."

Why did God use his sovereign power to bring back his people from exile after punishing four generations of sin? Isaiah (48:9,11) put it like this, "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you ... For my own sake, for my own sake I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

From beginning to end, the driving impulse of God's heart is to be praised for his glory. From creation to consummation his ultimate allegiance is to himself. His unwavering purpose in all he does is to exalt the honor of his name and to be marveled at for his grace and power.

You probably have two ... objections against making God so self-centered. One, we don't like people who act that way, and two, the Bible teaches that we shouldn't act that way.

In answer, his aim to bring praise to himself, and his aim to bring pleasure to his people, are one aim. They stand or fall together.
Since God is unique as the most glorious of all beings and totally self-sufficient, he must be for himself if he is to be for us.

In view of God's infinitely admirable beauty, power and wisdom, what could God give us to enjoy that would show him most loving? There is only one possible answer, HIMSELF! If God would give us that which is best and most satisfying, he must offer us no less than himself for our contemplation and fellowship and joy. "In thy presence is fullness of joy. In thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." (Ps. 16:11)

[Quahom1]

Thread moved to Belief and Spirituality, as it has little to do with Christianity (in whole or in part).

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Thread moved to Belief and Spirituality, as it has little to do with Christianity (in whole or in part).

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I'm going to need some more explanation than that. This article is completely concerned with Christianity.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I'm going to need some more explanation than that. This article is completely concerned with Christianity.

But your summerization was not.

In furtherance, I find the article lacking in issues that pertain to Christ or Jesus specifically. In fact, Jesus is mentioned only once. Christ, three times however not in very good light.

I repeat, this has not much to do with the Christian God, and more to do with God as a selfish being. Not in good keepings with Christian thought or belief of God, in general or Jesus in particular.

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But your summerization was not.

I'm just not understanding this, I put up a Christian article about the nature of God, the nature of a Christian idea of God, and ask if people have any views. How does this have little to do with Christianity?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I'm just not understanding this, I put up a Christian article about the nature of God, the nature of a Christian idea of God, and ask if people have any views. How does this have little to do with Christianity?

Verywell, if you find that I have overstepped my bounds, please ask Brian to reset and place your original thread back into the Christian forum. If I am in error, he will let me know. I believe that this thread belongs here in the Belief and spirituality forum, where many can present their varied thoughts.

As a rule, most Christians do not consider God as being selfish in anyway, shape or form. To suggest such, is not in the best light for discussion amongst Christians.

I have no double standard, and I pull no punches (I don't punch much either). I simply thought this train of thought be better expressed here. That is all Cav.

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As a rule, most Christians do not consider God as being selfish in anyway, shape or form.

Neither does the writer of the article, he makes that very clear.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

To suggest such, is not in the best light for discussion amongst Christians.

Ok, this article does pose a question which appears unfamiliar to the Christian board here at CR, but do you advocate only posting threads with which people will feel comfortable?

Perhaps on the Belief and Spirituality board this thread may get some replies. There seems to be little if any interest for it on the Christianity board, regardless of this though, the article is concerned with Christianity and as such the thread really belongs on the Christianity board.



Obviously I don't agree with your thoughts, but thankyou for explaining them, I wish you had done that in the beginning.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Neither does the writer of the article, he makes that very clear.



Ok, this article does pose a question which appears unfamiliar to the Christian board here at CR, but do you advocate only posting threads with which people will feel comfortable?

Perhaps on the Belief and Spirituality board this thread may get some replies. There seems to be little if any interest for it on the Christianity board, regardless of this though, the article is concerned with Christianity and as such the thread really belongs on the Christianity board.



Obviously I don't agree with your thoughts, but thankyou for explaining them, I wish you had done that in the beginning.

I would be happy to discuss at length, your ideas on the selflessness or selfishness of God...here.

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I would be happy to discuss at length, your ideas on the selflessness or selfishness of God...here.

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Ok, lets get things rolling. Right now though, the ball's in your court. I look forward to reading your reply to the article.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok, lets get things rolling. Right now though, the ball's in your court. I look forward to reading your reply to the article.

I would like to try to persuade you that the chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever. Or to put it another way: the chief end of God is to enjoy glorifying himself.

I doubt it. The entire concept of creating man, was for God to have a companion, one that met His expectations, kindled His hearth, someone He could touch and love, who would love Him back.

So, if you mean that God was "lonely" then you are correct. He wanted a self knowing being, that looked to Him, and said "I want to be with you".

But that implies that God had to think of the other "FIRST", before Himself. So, here comes human free will...and with free will comes discsention, and trouble, and reconcilliation, and issues, and fighing, and everything that goes along with coming together.

Ultimately I suppose God might be considered "selfish", but in a good way. He is husband, and we are "wife" to Him. We are the "companion" He wants, but He is willing to go out of His way to woo us.

Hence we are a bit more important than we are told, we are.

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[cavalier]

You say disagree, and also write about free will. Interesting that you do that since in replying to this and to the thread, "Predestination vs. Free Will" you disagree but in no way answer the Bible texts given. Instead you write down a view of God and the world the way you think they should be.

Either tell me that your beliefs allow you to disagree with and overlook parts of the Bible or please, make some Biblical reply to the Biblical texts given.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

You say disagree, and also write about free will. Interesting that you do that since in replying to this and to the thread, "Predestination vs. Free Will" you disagree but in no way answer the Bible texts given. Instead you write down a view of God and the world the way you think they should be.

Either tell me that your beliefs allow you to disagree with and overlook parts of the Bible or please, make some Biblical reply to the Biblical texts given.

Well, first off in the Pre-destination thread, I did use biblical texts to explain my point (I just didn't quote phrase and verse). I believe my first point was about those being called and those being chosen. And my second point was a re-enforcement of the first by bringing up as an example the story of Paul on his way to Damascus.

Now as to this thread's main thought, I can only answer based on what I understand about God (my own faith):

God is Love, first and foremost (1 John 4:8), and love does not seek its own. In fact, God's love is noted as unconditional (John 3:16, Romans 5:8). He has no strings attached, nor does He tell us "as soon as you get it together I'll do things for you". He appears to give even while we are unlovable.

We can't understand this totally because our idea of love is very different than God's.

By His very nature, God must do something with His love because without action, love is useless. Not only is God Love in motion, but God is the definition of love. He is compassion (Lamentations 3:21-26), and compassion by its very nature is void of selfishness, even in our limited perception of it, we understand this truth. One can not be compassionate and selfish at the same time.

Now as for the book of Isaiah, this is interesting in choice to show God as being selfish or narcicistic. Nothing is further from the truth. The reality is that the people were the selfish ones, and God merely exposed this condition to them. Chapters 1-39 paint the picture of a wayward, self-centered and contemptuous people, wherein chapters 40-66 deals with them, and offers hope and the promise of salvation.

Let us consider Isaiah 43:6-7. Here we are given a very strong evidence as to just who and what God is. First He is the creator, and we are the created. In short, "The Potter, as rights that the pots do not have" For us to question His glory, or better yet to be miffed that we can't bring focus to ourselves in glory is the epitome of human selfishness. However, since God is the focal point (the beginning and the end), naturally He is the glory of everything. He is stating two facts. We are created, and His is the glory that He created us. We owe God that. (we owe Him his rightful due).

In Isaiah 48: 9 and 11, Again, God makes it clear that He is the smithy, and we are as ore. Should He attempt to refine us as want to truly do, there would be nothing left of us at the end. Therefore He refines us in part. He is stating the fact that He is the master, and His good name goes only on His good work. He wishes to take pride in us, which by our doing right by Him, reveals to all who admire us, His glory (craftsmanship).

Here is a crude analogy. I have sons, whom I've raised, and taught and encouraged to become upstanding men of honor. Why? because I love them, and have pride in them (proud of them), and I want them to suceed in their lives. When they succeed and are considered honorable in the eyes of the world, I am pleased with and for them. And since they came in part, from me, and carry my name, there is honor given to that name. Now that is not my primary reason for raising them well, none the less it is an extra bonus, which I accept. Likewise should they dishonor themselves, then I grieve for them, and even though I did the best I could, none the less the family name is tainted and there is pain in that knowledge.

Psalm 16:11 This passage is not God talking. It is a man expressing his gratefulness at what the Lord has done for Him. I would say, the man has a grateful and humble spirit. In fact, it is how I feel about my own father, and what he has done for me in my life. And if we take the whole of Psalm 16 into account, the man is expressing the deepest joy, respect, and comfort in knowing that God is with him, and never let him down. God never says a word in this chapter, rather man is doing all the talking.

To sum up:

God is love (a love we can only scratch at in understanding)
Love seeks not its own
His love is unconditional
Love must act in order to be effective
God is compassion, and compassion is void of selfishness by it very nature
We focus on our own glory when we should be concentrating on God (who is the focal point of everything)
God is the creator and we are the created, and as such He has rights we are not privy to
In order for Him to place His name upon us, we must be refined so that our purity and quality reflect the good name of the master that made us
Instead of God having to express the truth of His perfection and goodness in all things, we should be singing His praises loud and clear

God is Himself, and is everything else, by His very nature, and He is for us. It is we who have to stop being for ourselves, and start being for HIM.

my thoughts

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, first off in the Pre-destination thread, I did use biblical texts to explain my point (I just didn't quote phrase and verse). I believe my first point was about those being called and those being chosen.

Precisely, who does the choosing here, the King or the guests?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And my second point was a re-enforcement of the first by bringing up as an example the story of Paul on his way to Damascus.

This does not deny predestination. God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.




As for this thread.
Analogies comparing the actions of God the Father, with those of a human father's here on Earth sometimes work very well, but here they fall far short.

We cannot judge the actions of God in human terms. God being for himself, and a man being for himself are two entirely differing things. If a man works for his own glory then he is selfish, he is narcissistic, but this need not apply to God. In fact it cannot apply to a God who is perfect and who, as you rightly point out, is love, is compassion.

These two things are not irreconciliable, but in order that the reconciliation take place we must abandon analogies that would have us think about God in human terms.

You wrote that God is love, and unconditional love at that. You went on to write that, "God must do something with His love because without action, love is useless". I would agree, and does the article.

So in His love for us, what can God do, what can He give us or show us. A perfect God would give something perfect, would show us perfection. What is there though, that is perfect. There is only God.

In order that God fully love humankind, He must work for His own glory. It is in this work, and this work alone that humankind is best served. If God did not work for His own glory, we would be the losers.

You say that we should live for Him, you are right. We should do this because God is great, we know that because He has tirelessly revealed His glory to us.

[Quahom1]

[quote]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Precisely, who does the choosing here, the King or the guests?

It was a paraphrase and opinion to a biblical story. I did not make it up.

This does not deny predestination. God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.

Sure it does. Paul could have said go to hell, and probably would have suffered for it, but that was his choice. Just like an alcoholic has a choice to clean up or suffer to death. Many choose death...

As for this thread.
Analogies comparing the actions of God the Father, with those of a human father's here on Earth sometimes work very well, but here they fall far short.

Well, I do the best I can with what I got.

We cannot judge the actions of God in human terms. God being for himself, and a man being for himself are two entirely differing things. If a man works for his own glory then he is selfish, he is narcissistic, but this need not apply to God. In fact it cannot apply to a God who is perfect and who, as you rightly point out, is love, is compassion.

Guess we can't determine if God is being selfish then, now can we?

These two things are not irreconciliable, but in order that the reconciliation take place we must abandon analogies that would have us think about God in human terms.

I think not. Though I look through dark lenses, I still see something of God in the human father. If we who are illicit (evil), know how to give our children good things, how much more does our father in heaven know how to provide for us... (biblical). Do we give our children stones for bread? No? How much greater does the Lord provide for us? (biblical)

You wrote that God is love, and unconditional love at that. You went on to write that, "God must do something with His love because without action, love is useless". I would agree, and does the article.

So in His love for us, what can God do, what can He give us or show us. A perfect God would give something perfect, would show us perfection. What is there though, that is perfect. There is only God.

What is shown is perfect. What we do with it is other than perfect. Not God's fault. Therefore, not ours to question His perfection, nor His rightful claim to glory. We certainly don't have the right. Why dare question Him on His claim to glory? Better yet, why dare call Him selfish?

In order that God fully love humankind, He must work for His own glory. It is in this work, and this work alone that humankind is best served. If God did not work for His own glory, we would be the losers.

Well, if we would be the "losers" and God is working for His own glory so that we do not become the "losers", who is God really working for?

You say that we should live for Him, you are right. We should do this because God is great, we know that because He has tirelessly revealed His glory to us.

Not very selfish of Him, after all, wouldn't you say?

my thoughts

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It was a paraphrase and opinion to a biblical story. I did not make it up.

Yeah, I know and have replied to it as such.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Sure it does. Paul could have said go to hell, and probably would have suffered for it, but that was his choice. Just like an alcoholic has a choice to clean up or suffer to death. Many choose death...

Ok, I'm not asking you to agree and am sure that you will not, I just want to know if you would accept that the following is possible. God, for His own reasons, delayed Paul's
conversion.


Here I need to make an apology, I previously wrote that your reply to the predestination thread was not Biblical. That is patently not the case and I sincerely apologize for my oversight.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Guess we can't determine if God is being selfish then, now can we?

Actually yes we can, God is not being selfish, a point I have maintained from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Though I look through dark lenses, I still see something of God in the human father.

I agree, and that's why I wrote,

Originally Posted by cavalier

Analogies comparing the actions of God the Father, with those of a human father's here on Earth sometimes work very well.

They only work very well because it is true that we can see something of God in the human father.
I simply stated that here, those analogies fell short.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What is shown is perfect. What we do with it is other than perfect. Not God's fault. Therefore, not ours to question His perfection, nor His rightful claim to glory.

I don't, and neither does the article

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Better yet, why dare call Him selfish?

I don't, and neither does the article. Moreover I wouldn't, and neither would the writer of the article.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Not very selfish of Him, after all, wouldn't you say?

Indeed I would say God is not selfish, find one place where I have said He is.