is Evil real?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by wil

I don't see any of these people as evil, I see them as crying out, needing love and understanding, as any society that creates this has done a disservice to these folks.

I don't see the people as evil, but people who have succumbed to evil actions. I think it is a mistake to deny that there is evil in the world and say it is all just perspective. Sure, I agree that evil is perpetuated because of illness, injustice, suffering...that people are pushed to evil actions by circumstances outside their control much of the time. Yet the first step in healing is naming the demon, so to speak. You need to bring that evil into the light but if we refuse to acknowledge that evil even exists...I think we are doomed to keep allowing and repeating atrocities such as the burning of those engineers. As usual though, we need to start with ourselves...


2 c,
luna

[wil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You need to bring that evil into the light but if we refuse to acknowledge that evil even exists...I think we are doomed to keep allowing and repeating atrocities such as the burning of those engineers. As usual though, we need to start with ourselves...

Namaste Luna, Ciel, Rogue,

I've got a question, doesn't and hasn't 99.99% of the world affirmed the existence of this evil for the past 10,000 years?

How has that worked so far?

Don't we think it might be time to try another way?

the person or the pain in the person...I don't know, I see Mother Theresa, I honor all those that work this work...I'm not even close to conceiving that level of understanding...but I see its results and wish to see it expanded. The buck has to stop someplace, and it has to be with me.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Luna, Ciel, Rogue,

I've got a question, doesn't and hasn't 99.99% of the world affirmed the existence of this evil for the past 10,000 years?

How has that worked so far?

Don't we think it might be time to try another way?

the person or the pain in the person...I don't know, I see Mother Theresa, I honor all those that work this work...I'm not even close to conceiving that level of understanding...but I see its results and wish to see it expanded. The buck has to stop someplace, and it has to be with me.

Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Two things each person can do...
01. Make sure you are not part of the problem.
02. Tell everyone what you think.

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Luna, Ciel, Rogue,

I've got a question, doesn't and hasn't 99.99% of the world affirmed the existence of this evil for the past 10,000 years?

How has that worked so far?

Don't we think it might be time to try another way?

In all honesty wil, there are so many times in this life I wish I had been able to speak out more about the wrong doings I was witness to in the name of evil. I would not wish to create an affront believing I might enpower the wrath of opposition. I would hold in meditative non dual silence, perfected to the point of feeling nothing, turning the other cheek towards more positive stance. Infact during that time there was nothing I could do. And the truth is it disengaged the ability of a life wanting desperately to create a better world. So I would say also, there must be another way. I choose peace, I choose compassion, yet to allow safe passage there must also be strengh of resolution and there is no strengh in denial.

- c -

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't see the people as evil, but people who have succumbed to evil actions. I think it is a mistake to deny that there is evil in the world and say it is all just perspective. Sure, I agree that evil is perpetuated because of illness, injustice, suffering...that people are pushed to evil actions by circumstances outside their control much of the time. Yet the first step in healing is naming the demon, so to speak. You need to bring that evil into the light but if we refuse to acknowledge that evil even exists...I think we are doomed to keep allowing and repeating atrocities such as the burning of those engineers. As usual though, we need to start with ourselves...


2 c,
luna

Hi Luna,

In light of your post I think it is important to understand that some of the last words recorded of Jesus was "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." I repeat "they know not what they do". To me, it is most important to see that people on the whole can't help but to be exactly what they are at this moment in time and space.
Perhaps, it would be best to substitute the word 'error' for 'evil' and define error not as an act but rather as a choice that reenforces separation instead of unity. All humans share in the same weaknesses that are inherrent to existence. We live in a world where a myriad of circumstances, teachings, experience, physical limitations, genetical differences, etc. etc. generate possiblities that include the whole range of emotions and actions that make up our perceptual world. The resolution of these differences is not found in the defining of terms such as good and evil but rather in always choosing unity/love over all other alternatives. Just some thoughts to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't see the people as evil, but people who have succumbed to evil actions. I think it is a mistake to deny that there is evil in the world and say it is all just perspective.

2 c,
luna

Hi Luna,
I'm with you on the whole of your post, even though I quote only the above.
Isn't it part of this strange liberal society that as with good and evil, we have also held in question right and wrong and even what is love? We talk of perspective attempting to see the world through a thousand eyes to understand others, yet we cannot deny in our heart of hearts we know. Have you ever noticed how when a child is reprimanded for doing something wrong they often take on a different personality in defence. The yes person and the no person. I guess what I'm trying to put forward is ..the yes is beautiful honest and just is, and the no is oh so complex, so complicated, what is it they often say - it wasn't me!
Mmm, so who was it?

- c -

[lunamoth]

Hi Joseph, thank you for your post.

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hi Luna,

In light of your post I think it is important to understand that some of the last words recorded of Jesus was "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." I repeat "they know not what they do". To me, it is most important to see that people on the whole can't help but to be exactly what they are at this moment in time and space.

I completely agree with this--forgiveness (love, grace...all related are they not?)--is the response. I don't understand this reluctance to name evil and I think this conversation is getting kind of pointless because heck! I agree with you, and wil, and Ciel, and Q, etc. My take on it acknowledges that bad things happen, we do these bad things to each other in our brokenness, but we are not the bad things...we perpetuate evil because we know not what we do. I separate the evil from the person. But to completely deny evil, as I said, is dangerous. What happened in Auschwitz was evil--carried out by broken people who deserve to have that evil named, forgiven and healed. And when a person is being sucked down by the evil of a self-destructive addiction, the response is not to deny that the evil that sucks the life out of them and everyone around them exists.

Perhaps, it would be best to substitute the word 'error' for 'evil' and define error not as an act but rather as a choice that reenforces separation instead of unity.

I could agree with this, but really what is the point except one of degree? The gas chambers were an error? There's still the idea that not all is well in the garden, regardless of what we choose to call it.

All humans share in the same weaknesses that are inherrent to existence. We live in a world where a myriad of circumstances, teachings, experience, physical limitations, genetical differences, etc. etc. generate possiblities that include the whole range of emotions and actions that make up our perceptual world. The resolution of these differences is not found in the defining of terms such as good and evil but rather in always choosing unity/love over all other alternatives.

I couldn't agree more. It's just this idea of saying there's no such thing as evil is a kind of wishy washy new age way of being politically correct. I say it is evil to demonize other people, even someone like Hitler. But it is not wrong to name the evil that we do, bring it out of darkness and into the light. And this especially applies to the evil that we do in the name of God.

luna

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hi Luna,

In light of your post I think it is important to understand that some of the last words recorded of Jesus was "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." I repeat "they know not what they do". To me, it is most important to see that people on the whole can't help but to be exactly what they are at this moment in time and space.

Love in Christ,
JM

Greetings Joseph,
You appear to be a man tuned to a certain awareness and aware of a certain play of existence. Yet how I question and have questioned this statement....they know not what they do..... for if this planet is to survive it is imperative that we do know. Time to wake up from 2000 years of slumber. It's waking to the fact that we must take responsibility for our actions. Christ came on a predetermined mission unfortunately he was given a lousy script where the end play was concerned.

- c -

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Greetings Joseph,
You appear to be a man tuned to a certain awareness and aware of a certain play of existence. Yet how I question and have questioned this statement....they know not what they do..... for if this planet is to survive it is imperative that we do know. Time to wake up from 2000 years of slumber. It's waking to the fact that we must take responsibility for our actions. Christ came on a predetermined mission unfortunately he was given a lousy script where the end play was concerned.

- c -

That would require man to "grow up" and take account of self and actions. We can only get that from our parents, and we have to take the "growing up" part seriously. Indeed, man still pans out with the same roles as expressed in "Lord of the Flies", instead of accepting responsibility and ownership, for self and for others.

Christ's "They know not what they do", is a two part revelation. We're blind to our own desires, and we are refusing to accept the role of adulthood, in the heavenly order of things. That is why the "deceiver" has a ball with us. We fool ourselves (I think it's called denial).

v/r

Joshua

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That would require man to "grow up" and take account of self and actions. We can only get that from our parents, and we have to take the "growing up" part seriously. Indeed, man still pans out with the same roles as expressed in "Lord of the Flies", instead of accepting responsibility and ownership, for self and for others.

v/r

Joshua

Q, Many of us grew up when we realised we had the choise to make a better go at life than our parents. And choice as a key word........

- c -

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Q, Many of us grew up when we realised we had the choise to make a better go at life than our parents. And choice as a key word........

- c -

Ciel, I opine that we have done so "well" that our streets are less secure today than they were 50 years ago...but then back then, we were "naive" about life. Hmmm, naive and relatively safe then, knowledgable and more educated than our parents, but less sure now...tough one to call.

v/r

Joshua

p.s. as an aside and an example: When I was a child in school, it was standard that any misbehavior on my part, might have gotten me a "paddling" from the principal, and one from my parents when I got home. Needless to say, I wouldn't do whatever I did, again.

When my sons were at school (during the 80s and 90s), I had to present the principal of their school with a notarized letter specifically stating that that school had the authority to "paddle" their backsides should they misbehave (plus I provided them with the "board of education") paddle to do exactly that. They called me quaint, but promised if it came to such, they would discipline my children as I requested. They also thanked me for trusting their judgment to act on my behalf, pertaining to disciplining my children. (This was in Orange County California). They never had to use such measures, but my sons "KNEW" there were measures in place if THEY got an ass about them...

Can't do that today. (what a shame).

[Ciel]

Q,

My, you have something of a way of playing the patriarch indeed. And I being a mere child born only ten years before you. Now...... in my grandmothers day......

Havn't we gone a little off topic?

- c -

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Q,

My, you have something of a way of playing the patriarch indeed. And I being a mere child born only ten years before you. Now...... in my grandmothers day......

Havn't we gone a little off topic?

- c -

I don't know...perhaps you were a better child than me. I certainly got my ass beat more times than I can remember. But I never laid a hand on my own, because I learned how to avoid setting them up for the same mistakes, and learned a better way to correct them when they did make mistakes. But the patriarchal paddle was hovering over their heads just the same...and I make not apologies for that.

And no, we aren't off topic. Many would consider this "EVIL". I opine it is right in line, and at the core of the problems we face today.

v/r

Joshua

p.s. forgot to mention: I didn't paddle my kids' butts, but my wife had no problem doing that...does that make it a "matriarchal" issue?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Greetings Joseph,
You appear to be a man tuned to a certain awareness and aware of a certain play of existence. Yet how I question and have questioned this statement....they know not what they do..... for if this planet is to survive it is imperative that we do know. Time to wake up from 2000 years of slumber. It's waking to the fact that we must take responsibility for our actions. Christ came on a predetermined mission unfortunately he was given a lousy script where the end play was concerned.

- c -

Hello Ciel,

I must admit to a certain play at least on words. I do see man/woman as inherrently innocent. They are perfect without exception in every way. Obviously, the reality I see is not shared by many.

When I was a boy, I was told it was 'bad' to cross the street alone. As I grew in understanding and awareness, I realized that it was not actually 'bad' but rather just an unwise thing for a small youth to attempt unescorted. In this world, I find our mind trapped in a polarity of opposites that no matter how deep I look into I find no reality. Everything has consequences but 'Evil' as an opposite of 'good' is ambiguous and arbitrary. As this stage of awareness I indeed see no such thing as 'evil'. Evil to 'who' I must ask because it is only perceptual. Only Love exists. It is real. In the absence of some degree of love we put a 'tag' of evil on it. But in doing so you have drawn a demarcation line where none exists and is prone to movement by individuals, societies and times. Some say 'killing' is 'evil' and yet in war time we make heros out of them who have killed many. We demonize the other side as if we are justified and they are 'evil'. It is the cause of much war and suffering. What is this word 'evil'? You can't put your hands quite on it because it is an ever changing concept of mind that puts us under a law to our definition of the knowledge of 'good' and 'evil' when in reality it doesn't exist. Nothing in this creation, no matter how it looks is out of the will of the One who created it. Its perfection can be seen but not with the eyes of flesh and the concepts created by the mind of men and women.

Thanks for your patience and I will say no more unless asked. I sincerely hope I have not irratated anyone here. I respect your right to believe as you choose and wish only the peace of God for you all.

Love in Christ,
JM

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hello Ciel,

Thanks for your patience and I will say no more unless asked. I sincerely hope I have not irratated anyone here. I respect your right to believe as you choose and wish only the peace of God for you all.

Love in Christ,
JM

I know this is addressed to Ciel, but I just wanted to chime in and assure you that you've ruffled no feathers with me. It's an interesting discussion and I think I hear what you are saying, and largely agree. I'm glad you keep on posting and would miss your voice if you stopped.

I've been thinking about evil not so much in the instance of war--you are right about the ambiguities there. Although I would say that killing combatants in war is one thing, and deciding to rape and kill women and children in the name of ethnic cleansing during war is another.

I've been thinking more about the demons that haunt us in self-destructive things like drug and alcohol addictions, and when we give into temptations such as lashing out at others in anger even when we know it's wrong (having been there recently).

luna