Is Christianity a Negative Religion?

[earl]

Yes Luna. The Ojibway are indigenous folk but I believe the tribe is Canadian originally. earl

[InLove]

Not to take the thread off track, but just for reference:

OjibweAndRelatedLanguages

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Thank you earl and InLove.


"Sacred One,
Teach us love, compassion, and honor.
That we may heal the earth
And heal each other."

tikkun olam.

The Golden Thread.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Gandhi is the name that comes to my mind when I think of the greatest people that have ever lived. As a matter of fact, he is the example I always use when I discuss one of the other Christian dogmas that chased me away from Christianity.

So, I'm guessing that the flavors of Christianity that say only Christians go to heaven and all others go to hell is one of those dogmas. (BTW, earl a while ago reminded us all of the bumpersticker: My karma ran over your dogma. Must have been written for Theosophists!)

Want to talk about that here?

I'm something of a heterodox on this topic myself, which means according to some Christians I am also in the handbasket to hell. But I like the saying: you can imagine there is a hell, but you don't have to imagine anyone in it. Anyway, some of those same somebodies also think Mother Teresa is in hell with Gandhi, so you know we can't take that seriously unless heaven is a mighty cold and lonely place.

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

You hit the nail on the head. This aspect of Christianity is called Christian exclusivity. Such Christian exclusivity made me want to run for the hills. (I did.)

Quite frankly, the idea that Gandhi is presently sitting in Limbo or Hell just because he did not accept Jesus boggles my mind. (I am quite confident Gandhi is doing no such thing.)

You said,

"...you can imagine there is a hell, but you don't have to imagine anyone in it."

--> I believe Modern Christianity requires such a belief.

"...some of those same somebodies also think Mother Teresa is in hell with Gandhi...."

--> Really?! Why?!

"...so you know we can't take that seriously unless heaven is a mighty cold and lonely place."

--> I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

~~~

Why would a Christian explore non-Christian ideas this thread is bound to raise? What about the danger that it may lead them down a non-Christian path?

This also begs the question you are inferring: How much traditional Christian dogma can a Christian throw out and still call themself a Christian? (Is this "New Thread" time? Nick suddenly hears creepy Haloween music playing on a speaker far away....)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Luna,

You hit the nail on the head. This aspect of Christianity is called Christian exclusivity. Such Christian exclusivity made me want to run for the hills. (I did.)

Quite frankly, the idea that Gandhi is presently sitting in Limbo or Hell just because he did not accept Jesus makes my stomach turn. (I am quite confident Gandhi is doing no such thing.)

You said,

"...you can imagine there is a hell, but you don't have to imagine anyone in it."

--> I believe Modern Christianity requires such a belief.

Well, I don't know about Modern Christianity, but such exclusivity as you call it has never been part of my beliefs. And when people tell me I'm not a Christian because of this...well, I just don't buy it. You can ask Thomas about it, but the Catholic Church and the EO Church likewise do not automatically condemn non-Catholics/non-Christians to hell. I suppose I take it futher as I believe, the only thing I can believe, is that one way or another all ends up in harmony with God. I really don't speculate too much about the nuts and bolts of this, but you know that story about the minister teaching a seeker about God's gift of salvation? And to illustrate the minister holds out a dollar bill and says take it, it's yours. And the seeker stands there looking at the dollar as the minister says now, is the gift yours yet? No! It's not yours until you take it! Triumphant music comes on, point driven home, you need to do something, you need to accept God's gift! And the minister puts the bill back in his pocket, smiling at a lesson well taught.

Well, the thing is, God is not that minister. God never puts the bill back in His pocket. Ever. The prodigal son is welcomed home with open arms...forgiven even before he left home and squandered his inheritance. Grace is, by definition, free.

"...some of those same somebodies also think Mother Teresa is in hell with Gandhi...."

--> Really?! Why?!

Not sure but I think it has something to do with her being a Catholic, rather than a 'real Christian,' and maybe also to do with heretical beliefs like God's unconditional love.

"...so you know we can't take that seriously unless heaven is a mighty cold and lonely place."

--> I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

Nick, Nick, Nick! Don't be so literal!

~~~

Why would a Christian explore non-Christian ideas this thread is bound to raise? What about the danger it may lead them down a non-Christian path?

My goodness why would I be at an interfaith site if I was not interesting in actually hearing other views? Besides, I have learned a lot about Christianity from people who considered themselves non-Christians, alterntive Christians, ex-Christians, atheists, heretics...you name it. And finally, God is love and love drives out fear...so what is there to be afraid of?

I am you and you are me and we are he and we are all together.

This also begs the question you are inferring: How much traditional Christian dogma can a Christian throw out and still call themself a Christian? (Is this "New Thread" time...? Nick suddenly hears creepy Haloween music playing on a speaker far away....)

Haha! This is pretty much the main topic of conversation around here much of the time! Anyway...this does not compute for me. The question I have thought about with more interest is what components do you need to make the airplane fly, and what are the limits to interchanging parts before it will no longer get off the ground...or worse yet, lose power in mid-flight.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

And to illustrate the minister holds out a dollar bill and says take it, it's yours. And the seeker stands there looking at the dollar as the minister says now, is the gift yours yet? No! It's not yours until you take it! Triumphant music comes on, point driven home, you need to do something, you need to accept God's gift! And the minister puts the bill back in his pocket, smiling at a lesson well taught.

My dad used to pull that trick during an appropriate sermon. Kept the money until one sabbath a kid ran down the aisle without hesitation and grabbed it!

He had worked his way up to a twenty by that time so I think that was the last time he did it.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Prober

My dad used to pull that trick during an appropriate sermon. Kept the money until one sabbath a kid ran down the aisle without hesitation and grabbed it!

He had worked his way up to a twenty by that time so I think that was the last time he did it.

Lol! Was that kid you by any chance?

[Prober]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Lol! Was that kid you by any chance?

No, unfortunately. We were warned in advance not to upset the cart.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

And finally, God is love and love drives out fear...so what is there to be afraid of?

Ask Jesus of Nazareth ...

... or for that matter, Sir Thomas More ...

... Joan of Arc ...

... Jacques de Molay (from whom we get "Friday the 13th") ...

... even Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

How does that go again, "God, save me from your followers!"

Perhaps you're onto something, luna ... in each case, including that of the Sanhedrin, it was fear was it not, which brought these tragedies about, one way or another. Hmmm ...

The Brotherhood in which Nick does not believe, as he says, uses fear as its chief weapon (I'm smiling as I picture Monty Python and `The Spanish Inquisition' ... yet the levity is only to balance the gravity of my point) ...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Ask Jesus of Nazareth ...

... or for that matter, Sir Thomas More ...

... Joan of Arc ...

... Jacques de Molay (from whom we get "Friday the 13th") ...

... even Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

How does that go again, "God, save me from your followers!"

Perhaps you're onto something, luna ... in each case, including that of the Sanhedrin, it was fear was it not, which brought these tragedies about, one way or another. Hmmm ...

The Brotherhood in which Nick does not believe, as he says, uses fear as its chief weapon (I'm smiling as I picture Monty Python and `The Spanish Inquisition' ... yet the levity is only to balance the gravity of my point) ...

Love drives out fear.

Originally Posted by 1 John 4

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

[Nick the Pilot]

lunamoth,

Christians who do not believe in the forgiveness of sin? Christians who believe Mahatma Gandhi went to Heaven?

Really?

Are there Christians who believe in reincarnatioin?

What about Jesus? Are there Christians who do not see Jesus as a incarnated deity?

"Nick! Don't be so literal!"

--> You have to remember that I am not a Christian. The non-Christian world is very different from the Christian world. There are ways of thinking in the Christian world that would never occur in certain parts of the non-Christian world. We non-Christians have heard of some Christian ideas that to us are, well, bizarre. Christianity is spooky for us. I remember when eating fish on Thrusday was OK and eating fish on Friday sent you straight to Hell. (I am assuming it no longer does....) In the wild, wild west, going to mass was required, yet living in certain geographical areas automatically absolved you of the sin of mass-evasion. (Which, of course, led to questions like, how long did I have to spend in a mass-exempt area before I could go to a mass-required area and not have to go to mass?) And, of course, there is the scapula....

"...I think it has something to do with her being a Catholic, rather than a 'real Christian,'...."

--> You have alluded to idea that some Christians believe Mother Theresa went to Hell because she was Catholic and not a "true Christian". You have to admit that Christianity has a very complicated set of rules as to who goes to Heaven, Hell, Limbo, Purgatory, etc. Can you blame us non-Christians for losing track as to what is going on?

I hope you realize that, no matter how bizarre something sounds to us non-Christians, we can imagine some Christian somewhere believing it.

"...or worse yet, lose power in mid-flight."

--> Been there, done that!

[lunamoth]

Hi Nick,

I'm not every Christian...I'm me.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

lunamoth,

Christians who do not believe in the forgiveness of sin?

I'd say that one is pretty universal...but there's a lot of variation in the details of what this exactly means. I for one believe that grace is exactly that, and when Christ gave Himself for all, it means all.

Christians who believe Mahatma Gandhi went to Heaven?

I know there are Christians who believe this...myself included if by 'went to Heaven' you mean are with God in the afterlife. But, when I talk about salvation/eternal life/kindgdom of God I'm not usually talking about the afterlife, and IMO neither was Jesus. Anyway, you would not consider people who believe in some forms of universal salvation/apacatastasis Christians? Why not?

Really?

Are there Christians who believe in reincarnatioin?

Oh yes I think that there are, I'm not one of them though. It does not fit with the rest of my beliefs, it does not seem necessary, and it seems counter to the idea of grace and forgiveness...you yourself would agree I think. Personally I can't reconcile reincarnation with resurrection, although I guess some might think you reincarnate over and over until the general resurrection. Myself I think that the afterlife is outside time...no waiting around.

What about Jesus? Are there Christians who do not see Jesus as a incarnated deity?

The Incarnation is meaningful to me, but I know there are some Christians who have a very different view of this. You know of Bishop Spong I would guess. Isn't he a Christian? Who gets to make that call?

"Nick! Don't be so literal!"

--> You have to remember that I am not a Christian. The non-Christian world is very different from the Christian world.

How so?

There are ways of thinking in the Christian world that would never occur in certain parts of the non-Christian world.

Really? All the years I was a secular agnostic and the years I was a Baha'i...I may have had different beliefs, but I think the same way now as I did then.

We non-Christians have heard of some Christian ideas that to us are, well, bizarre. Christianity is spooky for us.

OK, I can understand this. It's like another language, full of symbols that mean extraordinary things, there's Mystery, you need to become comfortable with a degree of uncertainty about some things, about words having multiple levels of meaning. And, if you were reared in an environment with a message focused on fear instead of love, all of that Mystey would be frightening instead of wonderous.

But Nick, aren't you being just a bit disingenuous here? After all, as a Theosophist you are open to the idea of the supernatural, and mysticism, and even though as a child such things when taken literally can be scary, as you reached the age of critical thinking surely you saw that it's not really spooky...even if you came to reject the significance of various symbols, practices and beliefs.

I certainly can't speak for all Christians, and I know there are many who take a very very literal-factual approach to the Bible etc., but there are also many who do not. The Roman Catholic Church is positively progressive compared to some flavors of Protestantism, esp in things related to science and pluralism.

I remember when eating fish on Thrusday was OK and eating fish on Friday sent you straight to Hell. (I am assuming it no longer does....) In the wild, wild west, going to mass was required, yet living in certain geographical areas automatically absolved you of the sin of mass-evasion. (Which, of course, led to questions like, how long did I have to spend in a mass-exempt area before I could go to a mass-required area and not have to go to mass?) And, of course, there is the scapula....

These things were not part of my experience of Christianity growing up in the Episcopal Church, they actually remind me of my time as a Baha'i in some ways. But yeah, those are pretty scary things, seems kind of legalistic and like fear-mongering. Any time the threat of hell is used would be pretty scary. I have a lot of ex-Catholic friends. The stories about the nuns at the schools would curl your nose hairs!

"...I think it has something to do with her being a Catholic, rather than a 'real Christian,'...."

--> You have alluded to idea that some Christians believe Mother Theresa went to Hell because she was Catholic and not a "true Christian". You have to admit that Christianity has a very complicated set of rules as to who goes to Heaven, Hell, Limbo, Purgatory, etc. Can you blame us non-Christians for losing track as to what is going on?

No blame at all!

I hope you realize that, no matter how bizarre something sounds to us non-Christians, we can imagine some Christian somewhere believing it. I am afraid you have to be more direct with your language when communicating with us non-Christians.

Nick, I hear you. It's nuts and it's messy and it's the way it is. Religion can be the absolute worst thing for one's spirituality. It's sort of like high school in some ways...if you make it out alive it's a miracle and twice the miracle if you don't hate most forms of education altogether for the rest of your life. But, I hope you believe me when I say that the god you find cruel and fearsome and don't believe in...is the god I don't believe in either. I know that's kind of cliche, but it is true.

I don't speak for all Christians...and most of them would not want me to. But, speaking for myself as a Christian, I don't approach the Bible in a literal-factual manner. It's not a science book and it's not a text book. It is poetry, it is sacred, it is symbol, and it is a thin place where we can hear the voice of God speaking to us. Likewise with religion...it is not the destination but the vehicle. If you can't trust it, you can't trust it, I understand that. Because what faith and belief really are...is trust.

"...or worse yet, lose power in mid-flight."

--> Been there, done that!

Yikes!

I'm enjoying the conversation Nick. I hope I'm not coming on too strong...and I'm not trying to convince you that you should trust Christianity. People have lots of very good reasons not to. I like this topic because as I've said...I've learned a lot from people who are critical of Christiantiy.

[Nick the Pilot]

lunamoth,

You said,

"...if by 'went to Heaven' you mean are with God in the afterlife."

--> Are there Christians who make a distinction between the two concepts?

"But, when I talk about salvation/eternal life/kindgdom of God I'm not usually talking about the afterlife...."

--> You lost me. Please explain.

"...you would not consider people who believe in some forms of universal salvation/apacatastasis Christians? Why not?"

--> I am not sure what you are referring to. I think we are saying the same thing. Salvation seems to me to be a universal Christian concept. I cannot imagine a Christian who does not believe in salvation.

"...reincarnation ... seems counter to the idea of grace and forgiveness."

--> I agree. I see the issue of reincarnation/karma vs. forgiveness/salvation as the key issue separating Christians from me.

"Personally I can't reconcile reincarnation with resurrection...."

--> Neither can I. It is either one or the other.

"...although I guess some might think you reincarnate over and over until the general resurrection."

--> It is an interesting idea, although reincarnation negates the entire idea of resurrection. If you think it through, the idea of reincarnation eventually wipes out the entire idea of forgiveness/salvation. The idea of reincarnation changes everything.

"The Incarnation is meaningful to me, but I know there are some Christians who have a very different view of this."

--> Christians who reject the deification of Jesus? Amazing.

"You know of Bishop Spong I would guess."

--> I have never heard of him. What did he say?

"Who gets to make that call?"

--> You know where this is leading. What is you definition of a Chrisitian?

"The non-Christian world is very different from the Christian world. --> How so?"

--> This is a very complicated topic. I would break it down into three areas.

(1) As I said before, the idea of reincarnation changes everything. It changes the very way a person perceives the universe.

(2) When you remove the idea of having a personal relationship with an Almighty God, it also changes everything.

* The idea of giving praise disappears.
* The goal of life changes.
* The looking outward stops. The looking inward begins.

(3) When you remove the idea ressurection, it also changes everything. Here, too, the goal of life changes.

"But Nick, aren't you being just a bit disingenuous here?"

--> No.

"After all, as a Theosophist you are open to the idea of the supernatural, and mysticism, and even though as a child such things when taken literally can be scary...."

--> The one thing that immdiately pops into my mind is that Theosophy is not scary at all. There are many facets of such an idea I could get into, but I will only address one here. The words supernatural, mysticism, occult, etc., have taken a bad rap. The words have taken on a meaning of black magic, seances, and witchcraft (and I must say I believe these negative connotations have been purposely created by church leaders). I can truly say that I have never read anything in Theosophical literature that scared me. When read from a Theosophical perspective, even the concept of Hell is seen as a positive experience!

Sorry, but I see the fear of mysticism as coming from Christianity. Do you know that my fundamental Christian sister once told me that the signs of the Zodiac are signs of the Devil? (true story, yuck.) There is more, but I will stop here, to hear your reaction.

"I certainly can't speak for all Christians, and I know there are many who take a very very literal-factual approach to the Bible etc., but there are also many who do not."

--> I do not mean to blow my own horn, but Theosophy uses both literal-factual approaches and symbolic approaches — and Theosophy is very careful to say which story is factual and which is symbolic. The factual/symbolic problem has been completely eliminated in Theosophy, while (in my humble opinion) it is still a big problem in Christianity.

Also, some parts of the Bible were meant to be taken literally. Some parts of the Bible were meant to be taken symbolically. Again, in my humble opinion, it has gotten all mixed up to the point of the original teachings being lost. In order to truly understand the Bible, a person has to know which is which. (And that is exactly what I and Theosophy do, but that is another topic for another day.) Curiosity is my strongest motivation. I can only hope I will motivate Christians into being more curious about what is in the Bible.

The feeling I am getting from you is that we can never figure out what the Bible really means. I disagree. I feel this is a big difference between Christians and Theosophists. I have had many Christians tell me, "Ya know, it does not make sense, and that is OK with me." I would never settle for such an approach to my belief system. (Fortunately, Theosophy does not force me into such a corner.)

"The Roman Catholic Church is positively progressive compared to some flavors of Protestantism, esp in things related to science and pluralism."

--> Feel free to give examples. (Go ahead and blow your horn!)

"It's sort of like high school in some ways...if you make it out alive it's a miracle and twice the miracle if you don't hate most forms of education altogether for the rest of your life...."

--> That is a fascinating analogy!

"But, I hope you believe me when I say that the god you find cruel and fearsome and don't believe in...is the god I don't believe in either. I know that's kind of cliche, but it is true."

--> I most certainly agree. The main point, though (at the risk of repeating myself), is that He is unfair.

"I don't approach the Bible in a literal-factual manner. It's not a science book and it's not a text book. It is poetry, it is sacred, it is symbol, and it is a thin place where we can hear the voice of God speaking to us. Likewise with religion...it is not the destination but the vehicle. If you can't trust it, you can't trust it, I understand that. Because what faith and belief really are...is trust."

--> I understand exactly where you are coming from. However, I see all of these attributes in Theosophical scripture too (I really do). And, I have yet to find one word in Theosophical scripture that does not make sense. Also, we are taught the Bible and Theosophical scripture come from the same source. Please find comfort in the idea that my Theosophical scripture gives me just as much poetry, sacred symbology, and glimses into the Divine Plan as your Bible gives you.

"I'm enjoying the conversation Nick."

--> I am too! This is inter-faith communication at its best.

"I hope I'm not coming on too strong..."

--> You are not.

"...I'm not trying to convince you that you should trust Christianity."

--> You are not coming across that way at all.

"People have lots of very good reasons not to."

--> Your open-mindedness is astounding.

"I've learned a lot from people who are critical of Christiantiy."

--> I am looking forward to the day when you spend all your time as a Guardian Angel — the time is closer than you think.

[lunamoth]

Hi Nick, I'll try to address your post in parts because it's getting rather wide-ranging.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

lunamoth,

You said,

"...if by 'went to Heaven' you mean are with God in the afterlife."

--> Are there Christians who make a distinction between the two concepts?

"But, when I talk about salvation/eternal life/kindgdom of God I'm not usually talking about the afterlife...."

--> You lost me. Please explain.

Heaven and hell are states of being. Heaven and hell can be the same 'place' experienced differently depending upon how you accept or reject God's love, how close your will is aligned with God's. Eternal life is a life lived in the knowledge and experience of God, a life in which love flows from God to you, through you, to others, and back to God. It is a life where the fruits of the spirit, the virtues (patience, honesty, kindness etc.), are expressed naturally as a result of this love. In the afterlife it will be this love that goes on...that which is not love will be destroyed. I view salvation much the same as eternal life, but it also includes the idea that through this love we act in the reconciliation of the world, the healing of the brokenness of the world.

Anyone who loves lives in God...and that is eternal (will never die). I have no idea what the afterlife is...I just trust that it is and that it somehow involves a transformation and individual life, yet that is an individual life in harmony with God, unlike what we experience here. Individual life requires some kind of 'body.'

Obviously I am a Christian who makes this distinction. I believe that my views on this are quite close to Eastern Orthdox, which is also less rigid in doctrine on such things than most forms of Western Christianity. However, even if my views are quite heterodox, that does not bother me.