Is Christianity a Negative Religion?

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Authority? That's not my relationship with my Lord.

I don't indulge in Bibliolatry.

My religion is informed by scritpure, tradition and reason. My faith is informed by experience of and the love of God.


I have never heard original sin described this way. I certainly reject that idea.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[lunamoth]

Doing a bit of online research into Original Sin, this wiki article illustrates the diversity of Christian views regarding original sin. It is far from what could be considered a 'fundamental Christian doctrine.'

"There are wide-ranging disagreements among Christian groups as to the exact understanding of the doctrine about a state of sinfulness or absence of holiness affecting all human beings, even children, with some Christian groups denying it altogether."

And a sum re the Catholic view: "Human nature, without being entirely corrupted, has been harmed in its natural powers, is subject to ignorance, suffering and the power of death, and has a tendency to sin. This tendency is called concupiscence" (Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 77), but is distinct from original sin itself."

and

In this way, the Church argues that original sin is not imputing the sin of the father to the son; rather, it is simply the inheritance of a wounded nature from the father, which is an unavoidable part of reproduction.

[Faithfulservant]

Personally.. I dont think its negative... Christianity is the only belief system that doesnt require works for salvation. But...Im biased

[Nick the Pilot]

Caimanson,

You Asked,

"How would you forgive/discipline a child?"

--> I am not sure what you are asking. Are you asking when I would forgive a child, and when I would discipline a child?

"The way I understand it, forgiveness is at a relationship level: I am at peace with god but I still have to clean my mess."

--> I agree with the peace and clean-my-mess parts.

"Does Karma have that relationship level with the creator?"

--> Forgiveness, no. Peace and clean-my-mess parts, yes.

"I wouldn't dare to elaborate on the theological details of such last second repentance."

--> I, on the other hand, enjoy such elaborations.

"Though for starters, the shooter is now dead. That is bad enough in my eyes."

--> In my eyes, his problems are only starting.

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

You said,

"Original Sin ... is far from what could be considered a 'fundamental Christian doctrine.' "

--> I think what people are saying is, some pronouncements by God have a certain negativity about them. For example, in the story of Adam and Eve, Eve now has to suffer through previously unnecessary child-bearing pain for what she has done. Adam must now walk on ground that was previously un-cursed (I am not sure what that means, but it does not sound good). Clearly, in the Christian version of the story, we must spend all of our time on Earth with these (and other) Divine punishments to deal with. (Fortunately, the Theosophical version of the same story contains none of these punishments.)

These Divine pronouncements have a certain negativity about them. It is the negativity I am talking about, not necessarily whether they are given an official title such as Original Sin.

Leo's quote,

"Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

says we (even babies) have all sinned, and additionally, we have all been born in sin. I believe this is getting close to a universal Christian idea of Original Sin.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Luna,

You said,

"Original Sin ... is far from what could be considered a 'fundamental Christian doctrine.' "

--> I think what people are saying is, some pronouncements by God have a certain negativity about them. For example, in the story of Adam and Eve, Eve now has to suffer through previously unnecessary child-bearing pain for what she has done. Adam must now walk on ground that was previously un-cursed (I am not sure what that means, but it does not sound good). Clearly, in the Christian version of the story, we must spend all of our time on Earth with these (and other) Divine punishments to deal with. (Fortunately, the Theosophical version of the same story contains none of these punishments.)

These Divine pronouncements have a certain negativity about them. It is the negativity I am talking about, not necessarily whether they are given an official title such as Original Sin.

Gotcha, thank you for clarifying. I'd say yes, there are tons of things in the Bible that I'd call negative, esp in the Old testament but also in the New.

Leo's quote,

"Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

says we (even babies) have all sinned, and additionally, we have all been born in sin. I believe this is getting close to a universal Christian idea of Original Sin.

As I said, different Christians approach interpretation of the Bible in different ways. I don't think there is a universal Christian idea of Original Sin.

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

I hope this discussion has helped you understand your religion better. And, I hope it has helped you understand better how we non-Christians view Christianity.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't think there is a universal Christian idea of Original Sin.

Hi Lunamoth – you're right, the different denominations tend to view the question differently, and in different ways.

If one was looking for universal agreement among Christians, then I would suggest the idea of 'privation' is a better place to start – less subjective and therefore less prone to the sentimental. The notion of sin has become so distorted in a culture that idolises the ego that it is rarely discussed with the philosophical detachment required to do the subject justice.

At the heart lies the paradox:
If God is good,
and God made the world,
and the world is good,
why is there bad in the world?
And what can (if anything) I do to redress it?

Whilst the world seems thoroughly briefed on the notion of sin, the world is not so thoroughly briefed on the idea that above all other traditions, Christianity holds that the world, and man, is good, and can co-operate with God towards his own salvation and the salvation of the Cosmos.

That is one of the principle reasons why I hold Christianity as the most positive of religions, and one of the reasons why I returned after thirty years searching.

The BIG PROBLEM is that it requires us to put our neighbour before ourselves. Try selling that idea in the affluent west...

Thomas

[bananabrain]

ahem -

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Theosophy takes a different approach. We say the Bible has been re-written, and wrongly translated into English. The actual story is in there somewhere. It is our job to find that true story. (And, getting to the true story, after being denied it for years, is fun!)

i feel i should point out that if you are suggesting that the Torah (the first 5 books of the "bible") has been "re-written", you ought really to provide some kind of evidence. as it is, this is firstly a "sez you" and secondly an implied criticism of the religion that considers itself the custodian, for several thousand years, of every letter, vowel and crown of this Text, namely judaism. i challenge you to give me ONE example of just ONE verse from Torah that has been, as you put it, "re-written"; this should include an example of what it should be "re-written" to say (in what language, i wonder?) and some evidence as to why the Torah verse is incorrec tand the "re-written" version is correct. until you do so, this is nothing but a smear - and a pretty shoddy one to boot.

It is this cursing of humans, placing of emnity, multiplying of pain as punishment, and the cursing of the ground that is referred to as Original Sin.

it is clear that you are ignorant of the purpose, function, context, implication or plain meaning of this passage.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

(Previously, an entire forest might be ensouled by a monad, or a flock of birds will be spoken of as the incarnation of the `group soul.' Humanity is where there is finally a one-to-one relationship between the form we see in the mirror, and the Parent Monad in Highest Heaven. In between, in worlds that are still transcendent of our everyday consciousness, the Soul mediates, serving as the bridge between our outward, consciousness-in-form, and the innermost, trancendent Beingness of pure Spirit.)

what on earth does all of this mean in english? deary me.

as for this:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

this is not a general indictment of humanity in any way shape or form. judaism does not accept "original sin", nor does it accept that children (especially babies) are wholly responsible for their actions in this life, let alone previous transmigrations.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

it is clear that you are ignorant of the purpose, function, context, implication or plain meaning of this passage.

How would you interpret this passage, BB?

Originally Posted by BB

this is not a general indictment of humanity in any way shape or form. judaism does not accept "original sin", nor does it accept that children (especially babies) are wholly responsible for their actions in this life, let alone previous transmigrations.

BB, but would you say that man is in some kind of fallen state, that is, there is something amiss at the core of humans that needs to be righted?

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Dondi

How would you interpret this passage, BB?

well, for a start i'd do a search on CR for the words "ma'aseh bereishit". i've posted on this a number of times - here's a good place to look:

Garden of Eden

Genesis, the creation story

but would you say that man is in some kind of fallen state, that is, there is something amiss at the core of humans that needs to be righted?

well, i'd say the world isn't right and that is the task of humans, to put it right. it's called "tiqqun" (or tikkun if you like), "repair". we would argue that the edenic state is not really a human state as we would understand it and that the greatest transformation we can hope for is the onset of the messianic age - but it is our task to bring that to fruition, not to hope for someone else to sort it out for us. we're not expecting humans to be substantially different in any way that can't be achieved personally through correct living by Torah and worship of G!D. we just don't see it as quite so awful as those who believe in original sin - because we don't really believe it was a sin in the same way that humans can sin nowadays. what it was was the beginning of the *possibility* of sin - but also the beginning of the possibility of *repentance*; the beginning of choice, for which the necessary concomitant was human free-will, the knowledge of good and evil in order to choose freely to do one or the other.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Nick the Pilot]

Bananabrain,

You said,

"...this is nothing but a smear - and a pretty shoddy one to boot."

-->

All of my religious discussions are based on the idea of open exchange of comparatve-religion, and the idea the we can find what we have in common. My ultimate goal is to for us to find what we have in common, not where we differ.

As you have stated, you see my words as nothing as a shoddy smear. I respect your evaluation of my ideas, and I vigorously defend your right to have your opinion, no matter what.

However, since you see my words as nothing as a shoddy smear, I will respond with the only response I am allowed — thank you for a chance to practice my compassion.

I wish you well on your path back to the Garden. I am confident we will meet again there, and, when that day comes, we will shake hands as friends.

[Nick the Pilot]

The software will not allow me to correct typos.

the idea the we --> the idea that we

nothing as a --> nothing but a

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Luna,

I hope this discussion has helped you understand your religion better. And, I hope it has helped you understand better how we non-Christians view Christianity.

I've found the discussion interesting and hopeful...I apologize if something I've said has put you off continuing the discussion. I just can't help but to point out that not all Christians take the same kind of interpretation of the Bible.

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

I am not ending the discussion. I am only commending you for your openness to have this discussion, and to have continued it this far.

It does seem we have covered the topic of Original Sin thoroughly, although I am willing to hear any more observations and questions you may have.

There are also other topics I have already recommended.