Is Christianity a Negative Religion?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Qualhom1,

Lunch time. I'll be back.

(I really like this dialogue too).

Watch out for the water cress and bamboo shoots (they stick in the throat...at least for me)

(Seal Beach 1995-1998)

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove,

You use lime to save a rosebush?

Quahom1,

Our philosophies are closer than they may seem. It is just that, when a baby is born for their first incarnation (I believe in reincarnation) I see the baby as pure and sinless. Sure, little kids are rambuncious and break things, but I see them as sinless. It may seem like a small point, but it is enough to make me a non-Christian.

Here is another way our philosophies are closer than they seem. You see Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the Garden of Eden in disgrace. I see billions of tiny sparks of Light floating down from "Heaven" like soft flower petals, and "God" happy to see them on their way, like any parent who experiences that empty-nest feeling. "God" watches them stub their toes, but it only a natural part of the experience.

The funny thing is, you and I are talking about the exact same event!

Have you ever tried Japanese ravioli called gyoza? Excellent!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

InLove,

You use lime to save a rosebush?

Quahom1,

Our philosophies are closer than they may seem. It is just that, when a baby is born for their first incarnation (I believe in reincarnation) I see the baby as pure and sinless. Sure, little kids are rambuncious and break things, but I see them as sinless. It may seem like a small point, but it is enough to make me a non-Christian.

Here is another way our philosophies are closer than they seem. You see Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the Garden of Eden in disgrace. I see billions of tiny sparks of Light floating down from "Heaven" like soft flower petals, and "God" happy to see them on their way, like any parent who experiences that empty-nest feeling. "God" watches them stub their toes, but it only a natural part of the experience.

The funny thing is, you and I are talking about the exact same event!

Have you ever tried Japanese ravioli called gyoza? Excellent!

Roses thrive in (ph negative) soil...

Indeed children are sinless...until the first time they challenge their parents' rightful authority (deliberately) I don't mean an out of control parent... And that, my friend is the first time a child receives a punishment or discipline (because they demonstrate knowledge of right from wrong, and choose wrong...and it is not the act itself, but the thinking behind the act).

I think we are talking about the same thing as well...it's the semantics we are trying to hurdle over...

[Quahom1]

I got a story:

When my oldest son was five, he came home from a friend's house nearly in tears. It took me awhile to get him to tell me why he was so upset.

"Ronny's dad swore at him and hit him with a belt. I don't know why..."

It wasn't what "Ronny's Dad" did that bothered him, as much as his concern about what I would do in anger...

I promised my son right there and then, that I would NEVER swear "at" him, nor strike him in anger. And I would watch over them and protect them whatever the cost. And I kept my word. But one day when my oldest was 18, my 17 year old came in drunk (and had driven the car home, after blowing up the battery), and I was very angry (because I told them if they wanted to drink, I would let them try it at home, where I could watch and worry over them, but they were not to go drinking out away from home), and I was worried sick over them hurting self or others...

Bottom line is I (in absolute righteous anger), wondered what the F he thought he was doing.

My oldest came flying down the stairs, right inches from my face and bellowed "you promised you would never swear at us!"

I pushed him back (no doubt I was taking charge of my house and home from an Irate 18 year old), and quietly said "I didn't swear "AT" anyone. But I'll be damned if I'm going to let my children do as they please, and think there are no consequences...I made a promise to you two, and you two made a promise to me...who has broken their promise? Me?

Blake dropped his gaze, and said "I'd like to put Ryan to bed now". I agreed, and nothing was said for the next two days (while Ryan got over his hangover).

When he finally woke up, we talked. The first thing I said was that it doesn't take two days for most folk to get over a night binge, unless there is a problem physically with one's body to metabilize alcohol...

Then, I pointed out that a promise was broken, and it wasn't by me. But there were consequences that must be met out.

I walked out of Ryan's bedroom and outside, and there stood Blake with tears in his eyes. "Is that what it means to be a dad?"

"Some times son, whether we like it or not."

"Ok, I think I understand."

"Not yet, but you will...I promise..."

God I think is like that too. And it hurts Him more than we realize at the time.

v/r

Joshua

[Selbora]

Unfortunately I have not had a chance to read all of the replies. I must say this though, I can never be a part of any religion that teaches original sin. My infant son passed away around Christmas 2005. He died in a Catholic hospital and never recieved a formal Baptism. I ask God daily that my son be the first of my family to great me in Heaven and I have no doubt this prayer will be answered. I have since given birth to a healthy baby girl. She is a true miracle. We both almost passed away during childbirth but obviously we had an angel watching over us. Both of my children are without blemish! That is why this particular subject interest me so. As far as Christianity as a whole is concerned, I have many other troubles.
I do apprieciate all of the replies and will answer any details as soon as I have a moment.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Selbora

Unfortunately I have not had a chance to read all of the replies. I must say this though, I can never be a part of any religion that teaches original sin. My infant son passed away around Christmas 2005. He died in a Catholic hospital and never recieved a formal Baptism. I ask God daily that my son be the first of my family to great me in Heaven and I have no doubt this prayer will be answered. I have since given birth to a healthy baby girl. She is a true miracle. We both almost passed away during childbirth but obviously we had an angel watching over us. Both of my children are without blemish! That is why this particular subject interest me so. As far as Christianity as a whole is concerned, I have many other troubles.
I do apprieciate all of the replies and will answer any details as soon as I have a moment.

Your child is exempt from the consequences of original sin. Even the Pope (this one), has declared that as truth. Grace of God covers all, especially babies.

I'm sorry for your loss. But I suspect your "wish" will come true. In the mean time, you got alot of living to do...

[InLove]

Dear Selbora,

I hope you will accept a virtual hug from me, and know that your precious child is not lost. I do believe that with all my heart. And no matter where your spiritual search takes you, I believe you will find that Love is at the Source of Life, and that death has no power to defeat that. Speaking as a Christian, I hope you come to understand that most Christians do not believe that young children are ever spiritually condemned, and that many of us would say that ultimately, no one is. Of course, I don't speak for all avenues of Christian belief, but I think that this particular issue is frequently misunderstood. There will be a "Mother and Child Reunion". I don't doubt it for one minute, and I have been a Christian all my life.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

Dear Selbora,

I hope you will accept a virtual hug from me, and know that your precious child is not lost. I do believe that with all my heart. And no matter where your spiritual search takes you, I believe you will find that Love is at the Source of Life, and that death has no power to defeat that. Speaking as a Christian, I hope you come to understand that most Christians do not believe that young children are ever spiritually condemned, and that many of us would say that ultimately, no one is. Of course, I don't speak for all avenues of Christian belief, but I think that this particular issue is frequently misunderstood. There will be a "Mother and Child Reunion". I don't doubt it for one minute, and I have been a Christian all my life.

InPeace,
InLove

Nice. Wish I wasn't always so logical, maybe I'd sound better, like you.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Quahom 1

Nice. Wish I wasn't always so logical, maybe I'd sound better, like you.

You sound just fine, Q. Very often you inspire me. And you can read charts and graphs and stuff, too. I am terrible at that sort of thing.

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

Selbora,

My condolences to you and your family.

You said,

"I can never be a part of any religion that teaches original sin."

--> You and I have something in common. I hope we have a chance to explore what else we have in common.

"...never received a formal Baptism."

--> Fortunately, my belief system teaches that it does not matter whether he received one or not.

"I ask God daily that my son be the first of my family to great me in Heaven...."

--> My belief system teaches that such a thing is possible.

"As far as Christianity as a whole is concerned, I have many other troubles."

--> (So do I.) Please feel free to explore your feelings here. The more, the better. I am sure you will find people who feel the same as you.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by InLove

Psalm 51 is beautiful. The whole chapter.

"...according to thy loving kindness..."

Great example of humility and gratefulness...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

You sound just fine, Q. Very often you inspire me. And you can read charts and graphs and stuff, too. I am terrible at that sort of thing.

InPeace,
InLove

lol, in my line of work you either can read charts...or you're lost, and Davy Jones comes a knockin'

[Thomas]

Hello Selbora ... we lost our son in the sixth month of pregnancy, and he too never received a formal baptism, so I am aware of the issues and the emotive nature of the question. Two years later we had twins, and I remember containing my anger when people said our daughters were some kind of 'token' or 'reward' or 'compensation' for the loss of our son ... but only goes to show what sentimental nonsense people come out with when they don't think things through ...

The 'problem' is when we lose objectivity, and we regard sin so sentimentally, so subjectively, that we miss the actuality of what is being said. (And, let's face it, some denominations seem to absolutey bask in an orgiastic delight at the idea of all those condemned souls.)

Original Sin means that we are all born 'human', and that as human are subject to the conditions that limit all humanity, regardless of age, gender, or any other consideration ... babies are not born supernaturally, and then become human subsequently.

So the tragedy is not that they are born sinful, but that they are born into a condition that is less than it rightly ought to be.

This condition, Christianity teaches, was not our original state – we were created 'in the image and likeness', and God saw that what He had created was 'very good' ... but that somehow we lost that Primordial Innocence, we lost sight of ourselves, and that image, that likeness, has become blighted, obscured, wounded ...

... now we are at odds with everything ... even ourselves ...

What Christianity will not accept is that God is the cause or source of the error – that sin originates in God – nor that God wills suffering on the world ... so if not God, we have to look closer to home ...

Thomas

[Dondi]

There will be a "Mother and Child Reunion". I don't doubt it for one minute, and I have been a Christian all my life.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

FWIW, not even all Christian denominations accept the doctrine of Augustine on Original Sin. For example, Eastern Orthodoxy has never accepted this doctrine. The EO theology concerning the Garden and the Fall are overall much more subtle and helpful in understanding God and our relationship with Him, in my opinion.

Hi Lunamoth –

Thanks for the support, and I agree with what you say, but don't close your heart to Augustine!

He is the one who put 'love' into the soul (EO places love outside of it) ... The EO don't like Augustine because he puts our relationship with God on such a personal level – EO doctrine had moved along a certain track for a few hundred years before Augustine came East, and they judged him severely against their own criteria, that says we can never know God in Himself, only by his energies (effects); Augustine says we can, God knows Himself, and He can infuse the soul with that self-knowing.

It is because Augustine pushed this idea of Trinitarian Love so profoundly, and said that we can be in God, that he was obliged to locate sin as a failure of the will, (we sin because we choose to) not the intellect (we sin because we don't understand).

Augustine argues we do understand, even if we do not know – the voice of conscience says so, it is the voice of God in the soul – that God is in the soul prior to any sin, from the moment of its creation, and is never absent, but that it is we who absent ourselves from our own interiority, from the operation of Grace, and thus from the Beatific Vision, which is accorded the saints by the Grace of God.

The Orthodox idea of the Beatific Vision can be seen in the hesychast, who experiences the contemplation of God as the Uncreated Light of the Christian Mystical Tradition (Dionysius), but neverthess, it is to some degree impersonal – light – albeit the light of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry - you know me - ever the Catholic! But I do regard the Orthodox Patriarchates as 'sisters in faith', and our traditions as the 'two lungs' of the Apostolic Church.

Thomas