Is Christianity a Negative Religion?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum

What a great thread, may I join in.

I realise you have moved on considerably from the original question but I would like to answer it anyway, hope thats ok.

Hi Muslimwoman...of course you can join in! We did go a bit off-track there didn't we?

I was born a Christian and converted to Islam a few years ago. Here are my reasons for leaving Christianity (my comments are to express my own reasons and not meant to offend anyone):

1. Even as a child I could not make myself believe that Jesus (pbuh) was the actual son on G-d. I believed Jesus (pbuh) was chosen by G-d to teach us and that he was truly 'good' (sorry can't think of the right word).

2. I became so disillusioned with the wealth the Christian churches hoarded while people were starving to death around the world.

3. I found out my own church (church of England) was created by king Henry VIII because he wanted to get divorced & marry his young floosy- hello did someone lose the plot a little? I want to commit adultery so I'll just start a new church/religion!!

4. Original sin - where on earth did that one come from? Jesus (pbuh) was born a Jew and as far as I am aware Jews do not believe in original sin so are people suggesting that G-d forgot to mention it before the advent of Christianity?

5. In England matters of the church of England are settled by Acts of Parliament (can you imagine George Bush deciding what we are to believe - omg don't even go there). So here in England the Privy Council decided that hell was no longer necessary to Christianity "ok lads we dont like the sound of hell so we'll just get rid of it, there we go no more hell".

6. The final straw was when I realised that man (as always) had taken it upon themselves to add to the word of G-d. One good example is Leviticus 21:16-23 - disabled people are not allowed to 'approach to offer the food of G-d' i.e., approach the altar. It just went against everything I had been taught about being a Christian. I felt that not only should they approach but we should help them get there.

At this point I left the church but not G-d.

I can certainly understand how you find these negative and disillusioning aspects of Christianity. I think at least some of them are not quite an accurate view of Christianity, but then again that probably depends upon one's perspective and experience. When I left Christianity for the first time I actually held some of these same conceptions, but for the most part my knowledge of Christianity then was just pretty shallow and not enough to be compelling to me as a way of life (haha! not that I am some kind of scholar now! Most people here run circles around me...but I'm still learning).

So is Christianity a negative religion - Not in itself but mankind has made it negative, as they do with all religions. Look at Islam, Muslims can't agree what time it is let alone on the interpretations of the Quran (I might get stoned for that one). It is my humble belief that we need to forget about all the scholars and priests and go back to reading the words of G-d, He made them simple and clear if we just open our hearts and read them without trying to 'interpret' them to our own desires.

Salaam

Apparently there are some similarities between Christianity and Islam then when it comes to how we actually go about trying to live out the faith. People are people the world around.

One thing about the Leviticus passage. Christians do not follow the Leviticus law, and I think that much of it is hard for us to really understand unless we are also very familiar with Jewish oral tradition and law. Perhaps Bananabrain, one of our Jewish members, will notice this and perhaps ease your mind a bit about that law. I'm surprised that this presented a difficulty for you actually because in all of my years in the Episcopal Church, which is also part of the Anglican Communion, I've never heard anything to suggest that the Church would say it is improper for the disabled to approach the alter. My goodness, quite often we have a disabled person do the offeratory at our chruch. Certainly this is not a law that is actually practiced in any Anglican Church you've attended?

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

At this point I left the church but not G-d.

So is Christianity a negative religion - Not in itself but mankind has made it negative, as they do with all religions. Look at Islam, Muslims can't agree what time it is let alone on the interpretations of the Quran (I might get stoned for that one). It is my humble belief that we need to forget about all the scholars and priests and go back to reading the words of G-d, He made them simple and clear if we just open our hearts and read them without trying to 'interpret' them to our own desires.

Salaam

Amen to that! ... and Salaam Alaikum

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Originally Posted by Thomas

Luke 1:37: "For with God nothing shall be impossible"

Remember, Thomas, quoting out of context to illustrate one's point - we do change the original meaning of the scriptures. Note the preceding passage:

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren (Luke 1:36)

People say things everyday, like "Anything's possible!" Yet none of us expects a newborn SUN, a star of Sirian proportions, to suddenly appear next to the Earth, go supernova, and bring a Heavenly HOST of new stars - and new Humanities - into being in the twinkling of an eye.

Why?

Because God does not WORK this way.

And therefore, respectfully submitted, you have misquoted Luke 1:37. All things may be governed by God's Science, yet God does OPERATE outside of, or contrary to that science, relative to Humanity, and to manifest Cosmos.

This brings us to ...

Originally Posted by Thomas

... as I understand Brahminic and Buddhist eschatology, there is no stipulation that a person must fulfill a required number of lifetimes, or that a person cannot attain the highest within any given lifetime?

Nope. Nor even, when Theosophists refer to one Mahatma's teaching that there are 777 symbolic lifetimes, is this number meant in any other wise than to illustrate an IDEA. The actual number provided, is usually understood to be many thousands.

Theosophy, as the Eastern doctrines, teach that we can increase the number of lifetimes necessary to reach enlightenment, or we can shorten our journey around the Wheel. This is exactly the same as increasing one's suffering in the afterlife, based on living a life of wickedness, or sin ... versus shortening the time, and the intensity, of suffering.

If Christ tells us that "As we sow, so shall we reap," and "As we mete it out, so shall it be meted out unto us," then I'm not at all clear as to why, or how, Christians get out of this very straightforward teaching that somehow, the afterlife will be different ... for say, two different people who are each penitent, yet one man in the name of Krishna, or Ormazd (Ahura Mazda), and another man in the name of Allah, JHVH, or Jesus.

As for the notion we find in exoteric Tibetan Buddhism, such as the teaching that His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso by name, is literally the 14th incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, one and the same great soul ... I don't know many esotericists or Theosophists who would actually believe this. It is regarded, as much else, as an exoteric application of the idea of rebirth.

Likewise, to say that ANYONE - regardless of circumstance - can attain to the highest enlightenment in a single lifetime ... this too, while it is not really conceivable even by a stretch of the imagination - is meant to encourage us, and to inspire us to strive for enlightenment AS IF we will actually attain it in this very life. Just think how much better the results, than if we shrug our shoulders and say to ourself, "Why bother. It's gonna take a hundred more lives anyway!"

I think Nick would confirm that we are looking at a case of wishful thinking as far as getting to ParaNirvana with a snap of the fingers (i.e., in "this very lifetime," unless we're considering an extremely advanced Initiate, or Master, who has already attained this-step-but-one-remove in his/her most recent incarnation).

Yes, it was said, with Faith as a grain of mustard seed, mountains can be moved, and trees can be uprooted and planted in the sea. I believe this. And there are those alive, today, Who CAN do this.

There's another reason I see Christianity as sometimes coming across as negative, depending on who is emphasizing what. In sharing with a person of another religion, or another spiritual understanding, it is never polite - or helpful, ecumenical, or friendly - to seek to downplay that other person's Faith, especially in definite, Venerated Saints (Prophets, Divine Emissaries, Saviors, etc.).

Nor is it helpful, or friendly, to speak ill of another person's Ideal(s), and Values, when what these largely amount to - is simply another way of expressing the GOOD, and intimating a desire to draw near to, and experience, this Good.

I think it is a patently offensive notion, to suggest that Love is somehow discriminatory, and would cease to enter in ... to the heart and mind of someone who is SEEKING God's love, yet is asking for that Love in the name, and tradition, of another Savior or Prophet other than Christ (Jesus).

And I will go to my grave, knowing, and believing this. LOVE does not stop, and ask directions. She knows where to go, how to flow. It is our job, to either be a conduit, a channel, a director ... of this Divine energy -

- or else get outta the way, and let somebody else who isn't so bogged down.

And that person, who is bogged down, they probably should be the first one to receive the flow, as it passes through us, and reaches out into the world.

Luna, I hope this slight op-ed bit is understood in the spirit in which it is intended, because I think it says a great deal (for me, at least) about what is one of the fastest ways to turn off another person, about Christianity. It's not just Christianity, it's anyone, really, who says one thing, yet behaves in another way entirely.

The examples I provide, can be applied to anyone, speaking about any spiritual path ... so I'm not looking for "amen's" with regard to Christian hypocrisy. That isn't my point.

Originally Posted by Thomas

I'm just curious to understand why there is such a limitation of Theosophy possibility?

There are many details provided in Theosophical literature regarding duration of time spent in between incarnations, yet it is stressed that the Soul exists beyond time, space, and even conceptuality, as we are used to thinking. Thus, who's to say whether in "the twinkling of an eye" the Soul has experienced a short eternity in Heaven (Devachan) ... or whether 1000 years is literally like a day?

The limitation is not one of possibility, except according to Divine Laws governing all of manifest being. Theosophists believe that, while these are not inflexible, they are not waved for any group of people, for any reason. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander - yet the opportunity to hasten our evolution is available TO ALL.


And how we may do this, is taught in no uncertain terms. The Road is difficult, and the Path is thorny, yet I see similarities to the Christian Teaching in the Theosophical `Golden Stairs,' shared by HPB:

A clean life, an open mind,
A pure heart, an eager intellect,
An unveiled spiritual perception,
A brotherliness for all,

A readiness to give and receive advice and instruction,
A loyal sense of duty to the Teacher,
A willing obedience to the behests of TRUTH,
Once we have placed our confidence in,
And believe that Teacher to be in possession of it;

A courageous endurance of personal injustice,
A brave declaration of principles,
A valiant defence of those who are unjustly attacked,
And a constant eye to the ideal of human progression
And perfection which the secret science depicts-

These are the golden stairs
Up the steps of which the learner may climb
To the Temple of Divine Wisdom

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Most people here run circles around me...but I'm still learning).

The day that a scholar stops learning is the day they cease to be a scholar. We are all learning, every day and ensh'allah will be learning until the end of our days.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Apparently there are some similarities between Christianity and Islam then when it comes to how we actually go about trying to live out the faith. People are people the world around.)

Oh no my favourite soap box topic - sorry. This is a fight I have with so many people, Muslims as well as non Muslims. There are so many similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam and of course there are, they all come from the same source. So why all the fighting???? Just look at the basic laws of each religion you have the 10 commandments - these can all be found in the Torah (I am told) and Quran.

The Ten Commandments given to Moses are these: (abbreviated form)

1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH. First pillar of Islam
2. You shall not make a graven image. Guess what we are not allowed to do!
3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain. And again
4. You shall not break the Sabbath. We have Friday.
5. You shall not dishonor your parents. Respect for parents - huge in Islam.
6. You shall not murder. Yep for us too.
7. You shall not commit adultery Think we top the bill there
8. You shall not steal. Yes it's haraam (forbidden)
9. You shall not commit perjury. We are not allowed to lie
10. You shall not covet. No coveting here.

I would not dare to speak for the Jewish faith but perhaps a Jewish friend could confirm whether these commandments are included in their teachings.

Sorry it's just that all this 'we are different' stuff just makes my blood boil.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Certainly this is not a law that is actually practiced in any Anglican Church you've attended?

No. I read an article years ago about an old priest that asked a disabled person to stay hidden behind a pillar so as not to offend people and quoted Leviticus. Offend people? - how offensive can you get?

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Amen to that! ... and Salaam Alaikum

wa aleykum salaam

[lunamoth]

Oh that's a very good post.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Oh no my favourite soap box topic - sorry. This is a fight I have with so many people, Muslims as well as non Muslims. There are so many similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam and of course there are, they all come from the same source. So why all the fighting???? Just look at the basic laws of each religion you have the 10 commandments - these can all be found in the Torah (I am told) and Quran.

Oh yes, the ten commandments are very much in the Torah. That's the original!

The Ten Commandments given to Moses are these: (abbreviated form)

1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH. First pillar of Islam
2. You shall not make a graven image. Guess what we are not allowed to do!
3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain. And again
4. You shall not break the Sabbath. We have Friday.
5. You shall not dishonor your parents. Respect for parents - huge in Islam.
6. You shall not murder. Yep for us too.
7. You shall not commit adultery Think we top the bill there
8. You shall not steal. Yes it's haraam (forbidden)
9. You shall not commit perjury. We are not allowed to lie 10. You shall not covet. No coveting here.

I think we could find even more similarities if we were to look for them.

I would not dare to speak for the Jewish faith but perhaps a Jewish friend could confirm whether these commandments are included in their teachings.

Very much so as the ten commandments given to Moses are first found in the Torah, the Law of the Jewish religon.

And after the ten commandments (found in Dueteronomy, here) we find what Jesus in the NT tells us is the first of the two greatest commandments:

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 6

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

and in Leviticus the other greatest commandment:

Originally Posted by Leviticus[" 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, [I

but love your neighbor as yourself[/i]. I am the LORD.

The NT version:

Originally Posted by Mark 12

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. [e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' [f] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [g] There is no commandment greater than these."

32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Of course you know these well.

No. I read an article years ago about an old priest that asked a disabled person to stay hidden behind a pillar so as not to offend people and quoted Leviticus. Offend people? - how offensive can you get?

People are people the world around...too often we abuse scripture to justify our own prejudices.

Salaam

peace to you as well,
luna

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Luna, I hope this slight op-ed bit is understood in the spirit in which it is intended, because I think it says a great deal (for me, at least) about what is one of the fastest ways to turn off another person, about Christianity. It's not just Christianity, it's anyone, really, who says one thing, yet behaves in another way entirely.

Yup, I sure wish I fit into my Jesus suit better.

Galations 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman,

Along with you, I am a former Christian. (I am also the Theosophist that Andrew mentioned above.) I want to commend you for having the courage to follow your belief system, even if it means changing from one religion to another.

Many people do not take responsibility for their belief system. You do.

You said,

"Offend people? - how offensive can you get?"

--> You are right — we must point out these offenses, even at the risk of losing friendships. Having said that, we must admire Luna for starting this thread, and giving us this platform to point out such offenses, even when s/he holds Christianity so dearly

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Oh that's a very good post.

Thankyou Lunamoth.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think we could find even more similarities if we were to look for them.

I could give you pages of them, it is one of my 'things' to look for similarities between the religions. I believe if we are really to coexist we have to stop concentrating on what is different and starting looking at what is the same.

Perhaps that could be a topic within this thread or maybe a new thread - we each have to name a similarity between our religion and at least one other?

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Muslimwoman,

Along with you, I am a former Christian. (I am also the Theosophist that Andrew mentioned above.) I want to commend you for having the courage to follow your belief system, even if it means changing from one religion to another.

Many people do not take responsibility for their belief system. You do.

You said,

"Offend people? - how offensive can you get?"

--> You are right — we must point out these offenses, even at the risk of losing friendships. Having said that, we must admire Luna for starting this thread, and giving us this platform to point out such offenses, even when s/he holds Christianity so dearly

as salaam alaykum Nick

Thank you very much for your kind words. I try to just listen to my heart (no, not my mind because it is biased toward my own desires) but I read something and my heart simply tells me if it is right or wrong (gosh I sound like a bit of a fruitcake now )

To be honest the change has not always been an easy one to accept, because of the misinterpretations of the Quran in order to satisfy the desires of man. However, I am much more comfortable within Islam (largely due to the modest way we live) as long as I can keep the radicals at bay.

Please forgive my utter ignorance but all I can remember reading about Theosophists is that you believe there is some truth in all religion because it is just man trying to connect, in different ways, with the creator - is that right? Note to self - read more!!!

Salaam

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman,

You said,

"Please forgive my utter ignorance but all I can remember reading about Theosophists is that you believe there is some truth in all religion because it is just man trying to connect, in different ways, with the creator - is that right?"

--> Here are a few quick facts for you about Theosophy.

According to Theosophy, all religions come from the same source.

Theosophists believe in something called the Absolute rather than God. There is a creator deity in Theosophy, but, He, too, comes from the Absolute. Theosophy teaches againt the anthropomorphizing of the Absolute.

Theosophy is described as a pantheistic philosophy rather than a monotheistic philosophy.

[Muslimwoman]

Thank you Nick. Most interesting, if a little confusing to a first timer on the subject.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Muslimwoman,According to Theosophy, all religions come from the same source..

Nothing I would disagree with there. What in your belief is the source?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Theosophists believe in something called the Absolute rather than God. There is a creator deity in Theosophy, but, He, too, comes from the Absolute. Theosophy teaches againt the anthropomorphizing of the Absolute.

But surely you must speculate about what the Absolute is, isn't it human nature to question this? Would it be akin to Nirvana?

When you say there is a creator deity, it sounds as though this is just one, do you believe in multiple deities?

Salaam

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Nothing I would disagree with there. What in your belief is the source?

Man.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The final straw was when I realised that man (as always) had taken it upon themselves to add to the word of G-d. One good example is Leviticus 21:16-23 - disabled people are not allowed to 'approach to offer the food of G-d' i.e., approach the altar. It just went against everything I had been taught about being a Christian. I felt that not only should they approach but we should help them get there.

As an aside, I wish to address this issue, though like Luna said, I'm sure BB is far better versed in the Torah than I am.

One thing for sure is that when you approach the scriptures at any one point, it is important to look at the passage in context. I could not emphasize more how important this is, for many erroneous doctrines and misconceptions arise from this lack of perspective (even in Jewish and Christian circles).

In Leviticus 16, we have a description of the priestly duties of Aaron, Moses' brother, who has been appointed High Priest for the people of Israel. As High Priest, Aaron is the only one in all of Israel who can appoarch the mercy seat of God in what was known in the Tabernacle as the Holy of Holies, named such because it represented the Presence of God. Moreover, Aaron could only enter once a year on the Day of Atonement to pour the sacrificial blood (which was made from an unblemished animal) on the mercy seat of God to satisfy the requirement to atone for the sins of the people.

But Aaron could not just waltz right into the Holy of Holies. Much preparation of ritual cleansing and procedures must have been met before he could enter in, lest he die.

Now fast forward to the passage in question, Leviticus 21:16-23. Since Aaron was appointed High Priest, by virtue of the fact that Aaron would not live forever, that priestly office was passed down to Aaron's sons. So like the unblemished animal that was sacrificed, Aaron's sons could not fulfill the priestly duties of the Tabernacle if they were anyway blemished. For since God is Holy and Perfect, anything that the priests did in fulfilling the Levitical Law must be made perfect.

So the passage in question only pertains to the priestly function of Aaron's sons in the performance of the sacrificial duties, for the nature of God warrented that. It had nothing to do with disabled people not being allowed to worship God or be part of the congregation.

I just wanted to bring that up.

In fact, in regards to Christianity, Jesus was very compassionate to the lame, the leper, and the sicky, healing them all wherever He went, even healing the lame while they were in the Temple, which suggests that they had access to God in Jesus' time.

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman,

You asked,

"What in your belief is the source?

--> I am not sure what you are asking. The source is the Absolute.

"But surely you must speculate about what the Absolute is, isn't it human nature to question this?"

--> It is. However, we are told such questions are fruitless. We have been told the finite mind cannot understand the infinite.

"Would it be akin to Nirvana?"

--> No, Nirvana is completely different, and is a core teaching within Theosophy.

"When you say there is a creator deity, it sounds as though this is just one, do you believe in multiple deities?"

--> Please read my post #26 in this thread.

Pentateuch Wisdom

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Dondi

In fact, in regards to Christianity, Jesus was very compassionate to the lame, the leper, and the sicky, healing them all wherever He went, even healing the lame while they were in the Temple, which suggests that they had access to God in Jesus' time.

Thank you dondi that was very enlightening. It leaves me with the question of where on earth you could find an unblemished person but at least now I understand the context. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

This was my difficulty, I had been taught that Jesus (pbuh) was the most decent of people and treated everyone the same, so I couldnt reconcile that with what I had read about leviticus.

Just goes to show us all though, I spend so much time telling people to put it into context when they quote a small verse of the Quran This is how misconceptions are born.

Salaam