Interfaith Vayeira

[Bandit]

sorry guys & gals. i just have not been in the religious mode much lately. trying to follow & all, but have other things on my mind.

we just did this at a bible study at church & it was kind of left in the air. (time permitting) i have always felt the Lot/sodom story was kind of weird- especially the faTHER & DAUGHTer part.

[pohaikawahine]

I enjoy taking part in this Dauer .... and welcome back Bandit, I have missed you .... well.....there are so many strange relationships and births in the hawaiian chants (all with meaning, but nevertheless strange) .... there is one part in the chant of creation about the woman who bore children through the brain .... it is the form changing goddess Haumea who has a brood of offspring first to the god Kanaloa and then to her own descendants .... the name ha(na)u-mea "sacred birth" (the goddess Haumea) ,,,, she also sleeps with her children and grandchildren .... and she can change her shape from aged to youth ....and there is the story of Wakea and his desire for his youthful daughter .... and the story of Haloa, the first living child born to Wakea, some said by his own daughter and named from the long stalk of the taro plant that grew from the body of an earlier embryo child buried beside the house ....and while all of these sound a little strange,they are symbols with other meanings ....


I also read a Lakota (Native American) story about two women who are transported to the star world and two stars become their husbands, they become pregnant .... they are wanred not to dig any wild turnips .... but eventually one does and when she pulls out the turnip, a hole opens in the star world and see is able to look down on her old world .... she is homesick and braids turnips to make a rope .... but the braid is too short and she doesn't reach the earth and falls .... the crash kills her, but her baby is born and raised by a meadowlark .... the baby named "Fallen Star" plays an important part in the placement of the seven stars of the Pleaides (seven little girls)

these are not necessarily births by a woman who is past child bearing age but they are examples of the importance of birth and its symbolism in other cultures .... most cultures that I have studied have some legend or story connected with birth that is certainly not conventional....

I just have a hard time looking at any of this in a literal sense .... for a woman to bear a child at 90 years old or 100 just doesn't make sense on a literal level .... it has got to be a metaphor for something else .... I also suspect the meaning is buried in the original words and sounds which cannot be seen in the English translation .... passages like the "wilderness of Beersheba" where the word Beersheba where be'er means 'well' and sheba is either an 'oath' or the 'number seven' (which is a sacred number) .... I cannot read Hebrew so I am very limited in how deeply I can read the passages .... anyway I will leave this one here and hope that there are some other postings with different views on all of this .... aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

Poh,

didn't Zeus also bear a child from his head?

Also, have you noticed how the ages were largest at the start of the Torah, and gradually they are getting shorter? I think that maybe this could suggest an ancient and timeless time when a moment seemed like forever, but now time passes by more quickly. And this is true for the individual too to some extent. So maybe Sarah gave birth to Isaac while people were still somewhat in a timeless time, before they had completely felt the loss of their animal-mind, if it can be called that, or maybe God-mind, although that is something else.

And Moshe, who lived in a not timeless time, was able to be in that timeless-time as he lived to 120.

Dauer

[pohaikawahine]

Originally Posted by dauer

Poh,

didn't Zeus also bear a child from his head?

Also, have you noticed how the ages were largest at the start of the Torah, and gradually they are getting shorter? I think that maybe this could suggest an ancient and timeless time when a moment seemed like forever, but now time passes by more quickly. And this is true for the individual too to some extent. So maybe Sarah gave birth to Isaac while people were still somewhat in a timeless time, before they had completely felt the loss of their animal-mind, if it can be called that, or maybe God-mind, although that is something else.

And Moshe, who lived in a not timeless time, was able to be in that timeless-time as he lived to 120.

Dauer

I had not noticed the shortening of time before .... a very interesting thought dauer .... it is very possible that when one has entered the place of sanctuary they are in a timeless place, the void .... as I look at all of this along with your thoughts, what we may be talking about are "sacred births" (such as the name of Haumea) and a sacred birth is not necessarily the birth of a child (although the child could be a symbol of a sacred birth) ... a sacred birth could also be related to transformation of consciousness, rebirth of a soul.... etc.... it could be the seed of thought that is nurtured and then blooms into full awakening .... aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

But what does that all have to do with laughter?

[pohaikawahine]

it has everything to do with laughter .... that is the joy of being .... aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

I thought you'd say something like that. Okay, moving forward.

"8. And the child grew and was weaned, and Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, making merry. 10. And Sarah said to Abraham,"Drive out this handmaid and her son, for the son of this handmaid shall not inherit with my son, with Isaac." 11. But the matter greatly displeased Abraham, concerning his son. 12. And God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased concerning the lad and concerning your handmaid; whatever Sarah tells you, hearken to her voice, for in Isaac will be called your seed. 13. But also the son of the handmaid I will make into a nation, because he is your seed." 14. And Abraham arose early in the morning, and he took bread and a leather pouch of water, and he gave [them] to Hagar, he placed [them] on her shoulder, and the child, and he sent her away; and she went and wandered in the desert of Beer sheba. 15. And the water was depleted from the leather pouch, and she cast the child under one of the bushes. 16. And she went and sat down from afar, at about the distance of two bowshots, for she said, "Let me not see the child's death." And she sat from afar, and she raised her voice and wept. 17. And God heard the lad's voice, and an angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What is troubling you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the lad's voice in the place where he is. 18. Rise, pick up the lad and grasp your hand upon him, for I shall make him into a great nation." 19. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water, and she went and filled the pouch with water and gave the lad to drink. 20. And God was with the lad, and he grew, and he dwelt in the desert, and he became an archer. 21. And he dwelt in the desert of Paran, and his mother took for him a wife from the land of Egypt."

What is this about?

[pohaikawahine]

part of this probably goes back to an earlier parsha .... Gen 9:13 "my bow I have set in the clouds to be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth, and so, when I send clouds over the earth, the bow will appear in the cloud"


I read this at a web site called hiddenmeanings.com which is written by a man who looks at biblical interpretation and the inner mind .... he also maintains that science is now seeing what has been in the bible all along .... he speaks of a supernova called Eta Carina which is releasing energy toward the earth .... he says that Eta Carina is the brightest light in the universe but it is hidden behind a dark cloud, Eta Carina is the cloud, it is in the constellation Carina, and the bow is in the constellation Vela .... further he says that Eta Carina ws originally part of the large constellation Argo Navis and when the International Astronomical Union officially defined the 88 constallations and their boundaries they split Argo Navis into 4 parts .... Carina the keel, Vela the ship ans two others, Argo Navis as a whole constellation symbolized the ship that Jason and the Argonauts used to sail in search of the golden fleece.

so it cannot be simply coincidence that Hagar sits "a bowshot away" and her son grew up and "dwelled in the wilderness, and became a seasoned bowman"... a seasoned bowman in Hebrew (literally 'archer-bowman') (commentary) .... I can't quite put it all together, but this in essence is part of the inner meaning of this portion as far as I can see .... aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

I think he sits a bow shot away because he's going to become an archer. But even though we could stay on this longer I don't want to because there's something worth pushing forward to:

"Chapter 22

1. And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and He said to him, "Abraham," and he said, "Here I am." 2. And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you." 3. And Abraham arose early in the morning, and he saddled his donkey, and he took his two young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for a burnt offering, and he arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4. On the third day, Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. 5. And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder, and we will prostrate ourselves and return to you." 6. And Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering, and he placed [it] upon his son Isaac, and he took into his hand the fire and the knife, and they both went together. 7. And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and he said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Here are the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" 8. And Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And they both went together. 9. And they came to the place of which God had spoken to him, and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and he bound Isaac his son and placed him on the altar upon the wood. 10. And Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife, to slaughter his son. 11. And an angel of God called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham! Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12. And he said, "Do not stretch forth your hand to the lad, nor do the slightest thing to him, for now I know that you are a God fearing man, and you did not withhold your son, your only one, from Me." 13. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and he saw, and lo! there was a ram, [and] after [that] it was caught in a tree by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14. And Abraham named that place, The Lord will see, as it is said to this day: On the mountain, the Lord will be seen. 15. And an angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. 16. And he said, "By Myself have I sworn, says the Lord, that because you have done this thing and you did not withhold your son, your only one, 17. That I will surely bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your descendants will inherit the cities of their enemies. 18. And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice." 19. And Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beer sheba; and Abraham remained in Beer sheba. 20. And it came to pass after these matters, that it was told to Abraham saying: "Behold Milcah, she also bore sons to Nahor your brother. 21. Uz, his first born, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel, the father of Aram. 22. And Kesed and Hazo and Pildash and Jidlaph, and Bethuel. 23. And Bethuel begot Rebecca." These eight did Milcah bear to Nahor, Abraham's brother. 24. And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, had also given birth to Tebah and Gaham and Tahash and Maacah."

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/TorahReading.asp?AID=9170

[pohaikawahine]

dauer - all of this including the previous section seem to be related to the passing of time as the cycle of a year (only it is not a year) .... but the heavens above are also within us, so there is the "as above, so below" aspect of the symbols .... remember in the past section I spoke of the constellations and the connection to the archer's bow .... this one is going to take place at the Passover .... the passing from winter to spring in the material world .... "in order for this to happen the sun must enter the lamb/ram, aries constellation .... the lamb/aries is roasted by the sun and we passover from winter to spring ...."


"internally the lamb/aries is the pineal gland of the brain .... when the solar plexus, sun energy rises to consume the lamb/pineal you passover" from darkness to light when things become new,or another way to look at it is you become enlightened.

from that same website I mentioned ...." meditation brings you out of the winter of your soul that you may passover to the calm and this is the purpose of the sacrificial lamb...."

the sacrafice of his "son" (sun) tells us about both the external passing of time as well as the internal process .... seems like the parshas should be read according to the time of the year so that the symbols are taking place in the heavens and we can reflect on what it means internally .... just my thoughts .... aloha nui, poh

in the mayan prophecies we are in a transition phase of moving from the fourth world to the fifth world (moving into the higher frequency energy centes of the body that are located in the head .. my interpretation here) and this would be equivalent to the passover from the body to the head .... symbolically we reconnect the severed head .... lots of symbolism in that "severed head" from John the Baptist to some of the actions we see in terrorist actions today .... even on the small island of Belau in the south pacific, there is a myth about a woman's head in a basket that later becomes the moon I think .... and in the mayan Popol Vuh, there are the games with the ball that take place in a great field (the milky way and the moon) .... all in the symbols .... we all need to reconnect .....

[dauer]

One of the things the Jewish tradition notes is that the word sacrifice is never used here. And so it calls this the binding of Isaac. I think it originally may have been a warning against child sacrifice, back when people were sacrificing their own children. It's even hinted at from the beginning that the sacrifice will never happen. For instance, abraham says that the two of them will return, to the young men. And he says God will provide the lamb. He doesn't say Isaac will be the lamb. It also seems to point that Abraham knew all along that there would be no sacrifice of his son.

Dauer

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by dauer

Poh,

didn't Zeus also bear a child from his head?

Also, have you noticed how the ages were largest at the start of the Torah, and gradually they are getting shorter? I think that maybe this could suggest an ancient and timeless time when a moment seemed like forever, but now time passes by more quickly. And this is true for the individual too to some extent. So maybe Sarah gave birth to Isaac while people were still somewhat in a timeless time, before they had completely felt the loss of their animal-mind, if it can be called that, or maybe God-mind, although that is something else.

And Moshe, who lived in a not timeless time, was able to be in that timeless-time as he lived to 120.

Dauer

Well, at the start people are living to almost a thousand years old, which is a little bit, uh, unbelievable. Makes me wonder if there is some hidden numerology or gematria involved with those hereditary timelines. If you were to create a timeline of all the major events in the OT you would see that a lot of stuff is happening in "real time" about the time of the Babylonian exile. That's a pretty big clue as to when the Torah and the rest of the OT were written or collated.

It is interesting, as you mention, that the text clues one in that Isaac was never really intended to be sacrificed. I hadn't picked up on that before.

Interesting discussion as always!

Chris

[dauer]

Some of the ages have definitely been taken as gematria, like enoch living for 360 years I think, which gave rise to the enochites who used a purely solar calendar. I'm not sure that this means gematria was intended though.

Dauer

[pohaikawahine]

Originally Posted by dauer

One of the things the Jewish tradition notes is that the word sacrifice is never used here. And so it calls this the binding of Isaac. I think it originally may have been a warning against child sacrifice, back when people were sacrificing their own children. It's even hinted at from the beginning that the sacrifice will never happen. For instance, abraham says that the two of them will return, to the young men. And he says God will provide the lamb. He doesn't say Isaac will be the lamb. It also seems to point that Abraham knew all along that there would be no sacrifice of his son.

Dauer

dauer - what if what I suggested were a part of the meaning of the torah .... the fact that the constellations continue to rise and set in our hemisphere, then it would be logical that the two will return - if this were the case that a possible inner meaning is related to the movement of constellations in the heavens and in the human body by concept that we are all microcosims of our own universe, then the Jewish tradition that sacrifice was never the intention is pono (righteous thought) .... I remember that you told me there are also four levels of meaning in the text, just as there are in most ancient texts and traditions .... are we able to tell what level we interpret at, do we do in and out of various levels, when do we know we have reached the most sacred?

I'm going to use two other examples (although there are many) outside of the Jewish tradition because sometimes it is easier to see it in another and not in our own since we have a strong emotional attachment (this reminds me of a recent parsha about the value of a close friend's advice) .... I know you have heard of the Tantra (which comes from the Sanskrit words "tan" meaning 'dullness' and 'trayet' meaning 'to liberate' - that which liberates the mind from dullness) .... tantra acknowledges that existence is the result of tension between two forces which can be called expansive and contractive .... most people associate trantra with a sexual practice, but it is much more when you reach the deeper levels of meaning .... it was said that "in order that the practices could not be misused by the uninitiated they were often hidden i codes and images .... the most famous are the five Ms (mamsa - meat, matsya - fish, madhya - wine, mudra - posture, and maethuna - sexual union) and as a result tantra has been much understood. The ancient Tantrics realised that not everyoe was ready to undergo strong spiritual disciplines and so they devised a set of practices for common people (as yet unable to give up the five Ms) which taught them how to use these things in a controlled way with spiritual ideation. Once reaching a higher state the Five Ms took on a different meaning altogether .... mamsa (meat) was the symbol for the tongue and meant control of speech and other expressions, matsya (fish) was the symbol for the two intertwining psychic channels which are controlled by the breath and means breath control, madhya (wine) was the symbol for the harmone secreted by the pineal gland, melatonin and the techniques for bringing it under control, mudra (posture) was the symbol for spiritual company and the importance of contact with good people, while maethuna (sexual union) was the symbol for joining the kundalinii energy (female) to the seat of the consciousness (male) in the sahasrara cakra at the crown of the head." Tantra is a dynamic science aimed at human liberation on all levels.

The next example is a story from a small island in the south pacific called Palau (Belau) about a seven foot warrior that goes to an outer island to visit and the people are upset about seven warriors that come to attack them from another island .... this seven foot warrior goes to the ocean to pretend to wash his wounds and his spear is hidden in the shallow water next to him, when the seven warriors appear on the horizon in their canoes, he springs into action and brings up his spear and kills the warriors .... so he becomes a hero .... (that's a very short version) .... but the real inner meaning of the story is related to the rising of the constellation the Pleiades (the seven start) and its appearance o the horizon, then the warriors are killed (when the constellation sets almost 6 months later) (time and untime) .... and there is still another level of meaning which is the sacred ....

The same with hawaiian legends and chants .... four levels of meaning .... we say that one must be able to see through the veils to get a glimpse of the "huna" or sacred meaning .... it is not secret but sacred ....

In the story from the small island of Palau, the warriors are never actually killed .... it is only a metaphor for the setting of the constellation .... and in war times before the arrival of outsiders that introduced weapons such as guns, the islanders would have war games but the object was only to make first contact with the point of spear (not to hurt someone) and that side were declared the victors .... even war games were part of rituals and patterns of life that remind us of who we really are .... then war became something else and even this small island has been "owned" by other nations only recently regaining its independance and trying to recover something of their original values which are so overlaid by outside institutions that they are deeply buried even in the minds of the people .... it was on this small island that I learned by first great lesson about what balance really means in the name of one of their ancient gods ....and I was sad when I left because most young people only knew this ancient god as a stingray or a bird and did not remember .... well enough of the stories, this all started out to say that the Jewish tradition you mention is correct in my view .... it is possible that the ancient teachers of this wisdom, those rabbi that we all read of, knew more than we in the inner meanings and were careful to point out that "sacrafice" is not the intention .... aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

poh,

I wouldn't say that any meaning is most sacred. It's all Torah. I think some would say to pay attention to the pshat, the plain meaning, even at the other levels. The meanings do cross over though. So you might be able to say, I'm in the plain meaning, or I'm in the hinted meaning, or I'm in the allegorical meaning, or I'm in the hidden meaning, but it's possible you're crossing over too.

Dauer