Interfaith Ha'azinu

[dauer]

Deuteronomy 32:1-32:52. I will be gone later in the week for Yom Kippur. Please keep each other busy. Blah blah blah. Last week may have been sparse, but I agree with bandit that it was great. It felt like it was turning into more of a discussion. Good stuff.

"1. Listen, O heavens, and I will speak! And let the earth hear the words of my mouth! 2. My lesson will drip like rain; my word will flow like dew; like storm winds on vegetation and like raindrops on grass. 3. When I call out the name of the Lord, ascribe greatness to our God. 4. The deeds of the [Mighty] Rock are perfect, for all His ways are just; a faithful God, without injustice He is righteous and upright. 5. Destruction is not His; it is His children's defect you crooked and twisted generation. 6. Is this how you repay the Lord, you disgraceful, unwise people?! Is He not your Father, your Master? He has made you and established you."

How do the heavens listen? How does the earth hear? What does it mean for a lesson to drip like rain and for words to flow like dew? What are perfect deeds? Do just ways equal perfect deeds? Why is God called "Rock" in this place? What is the significance of this name? What is the difference between being righteous and being upright? Is Moshe blaming destruction on Israel? What's the difference between crooked and twisted? Why is God called Father and Master? Why these two names in this place? Why Father and then Master?

Type up whatever you'd like. These are just some conversation starters.

Dauer

[pohaikawahine]

I know I will have more than one post on this one .... the "nectar of the gods" which is the rain can mean the downpour of knowledge or can mean the mana that begins to flow downward to bridge heaven and earth .... I read in the commentary of my copy that "the only thing certain about the unique Hebrew noun se'irim is that it has to be some form of percipitation. If it is cognate with se'arah, "storm", then "cloudburst" would be a likely meaning." and he believes that "rock is an epithet for God, as a stronghold .... it is used seven times in the poem, which exhibits a predilection for repeating key terms a formulaic number of times." and you already know my take on the symbol of seven (the seven inner energy centers of the human body) .... basically the movement of energy from above must meet the movement of energy from below to cause the bridge to open, this is the meeting of heaven and earth .... so the concept of "rain" or "dew" has many symbolic meanings. I want to go back and read the whole of Cahpter 32 because its style as a poem or song is so different from the rest of the text .... it culminates at Mount Abarim and Mount Nebo where one "dies" on the mountain .... much to think about right now .... will return .... aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

Poh,

you make a good point about chapter 32. I'm going to present all of it for analysis and discussion. We can then let the conversation go where it will go. I will interrupt the passages with analysis. This all comes from

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9996

1-6 is above with questions.

7. Remember the days of old; reflect upon the years of [other] generations. Ask your father, and he will tell you [I think here it should say "to go to"] your elders, and they will inform you.
8. When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.
9. Because the Lord's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance.

What is this talking about? What is the name Most High about? Why is the phrase "sons of man" bnei adam, used here? Why are the people referred to as Jacob in some places and Israel in other places? Is there a significant difference in the usage of each name?

10. He found them in a desert land, and in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and bestowed understanding upon them; He protected them as the pupil of His eye.
11. As an eagle awakens its nest, hovering over its fledglings, it spreads its wings, taking them and carrying them on its pinions.
12. [So] the Lord guided them alone, and there was no alien deity with Him.
13. He made them ride upon the high places of the earth, that they would eat the produce of the field. He let them suck honey from a rock, and oil from the mighty part of the crag.

When did honey come from the rock, and oil from the mighty part of the crag? What does it mean to be as the pupil of His eye? What is the eagle a reference to?

14. The cream of cattle and the milk of sheep, with the fat of lambs and rams of Bashan and he goats, with kidneys of wheat, and it [the congregation of Israel] would drink the blood of grapes [which was] as the finest wine.
15. And Jeshurun became fat and rebelled; you grew fat, thick and rotund; [Israel] forsook the God Who made them, and spurned the [Mighty] Rock of their salvation.
16. They provoked His zeal with alien worship; they made Him angry with abominations deeds.
17. They sacrificed to demons, which have no power, deities they did not know, new things that only recently came, which your forefathers did not fear.
18. You forgot the [Mighty] Rock Who bore you; you forgot the God Who delivered you.
19. And the Lord saw this and became angry, provoked by His sons and daughters.

What about the name Jeshurun? Are the deities being called demons or are the demons something else? What does it mean for God to be provoked to anger by humans?

20. And He said, "I will hide My face from them. I will see what their end will be, for they are a generation of changes; they are not [recognizable] as My children whom I have reared.
21. They have provoked My jealousy with a non god, provoked My anger with their vanities. Thus, I will provoke their jealousy with a non people, provoke their anger with a foolish nation.

If this is not talking about Egypt, but instead is Hezekian, what does it mean? What is so bad about a generation of changes? What is God saying about the reason for evil?

22. For a fire blazed in My wrath, and burned to the lowest depths. It consumed the land and its produce, setting aflame the foundations of mountains.
23. I will link evils upon them. I will use up My arrows on them.
24. They will sprout hair from famine, attacked by demons, excised by Meriri. I will incite the teeth of livestock upon them, with the venom of creatures that slither in the dust.
25. From outside, the sword will bereave, and terror from within; young men and maidens, suckling babes with venerable elders.
26. I said that I would make an end of them, eradicate their remembrance from mankind.
27. Were it not that the enemy's wrath was heaped up, lest their adversaries distort; lest they claim, "Our hand was triumphant! The Lord did none of this!"
28. For they are a nation devoid of counsel, and they have no understanding.
29. If they were wise, they would understand this; they would reflect upon their fate.

Who is Meriri? What are the lowest depths? Is Israel a nation devoid of all form of understanding, or of a particular form of understanding, and is this all Israel or this generation?

30. How can one [person] pursue a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, unless their [Mighty] Rock has sold them out, and the Lord has given them over?
31. For their rock is not like our [Mighty] Rock. Nevertheless, our enemies sit in judgment.
32. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the field of Gemorrah; their grapes are grapes of rosh, and they have bitter clusters.
33. Their wine is the bitterness of serpents, and the bitterness of the ruthless cobras.
34. Is it not stored up with Me, sealed up in My treasuries?
35. Vengeance is poised with Me, and it will pay at the time their foot stumbles. For the appointed day of their reckoning is near, and what is destined for them hastens.
36. When the Lord will judge His people, and will reconsider His servants, when He sees that the power is increasing, and none is controlled or strengthened.
37. Then He will say, "Where is their deity, the rock in which they trusted,
38. who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their libations? Let them arise and help you! Let them be your shelter!
39. See now that it is I! I am the One, and there is no god like Me! I cause death and grant life. I strike, but I heal, and no one can rescue from My Hand!
40. For I raise up My hand to heaven, and say, 'As I live forever.'
41. When I sharpen the blade of My sword, and My hand grasps judgment, I will bring vengeance upon My adversaries and repay those who hate Me.
42. I will intoxicate My arrows with blood, and My sword will consume flesh, from the blood of the slain and the captives, from the first breach of the enemy.'
43. Sing out praise, O you nations, for His people! For He will avenge the blood of His servants, inflict revenge upon His adversaries, and appease His land [and] His people.
44. And Moses came and spoke all the words of this song into the ears of the people he and Hoshea the son of Nun.
45. And Moses finished speaking all these words to all Israel.

Why was Hoshea ben Nun needed in this situation?

46. And he said to them, "Set your hearts to all of the words which I bear witness for you this day, so that you may command your children to observe to do all the words of this Torah.
47. For it is not an empty thing for you, for it is your life, and through this thing, you will lengthen your days upon the land to which you are crossing over the Jordan, to possess it."

Would following the Torah really lengthen their days? If so, how?

48. And the Lord spoke to Moses on that very day, saying,
49. Go up this Mount Avarim [to] Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is facing Jericho, and see the Land of Canaan, which I am giving to the children of Israel as a possession,
50. And die on the mountain upon which you are climbing and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.
51. Because you betrayed Me in the midst of the children of Israel at the waters of Merivath Kadesh, [in] the desert of Zin, [and] because you did not sanctify Me in the midst of the children of Israel.
52. For from afar, you will see the land, but you will not come there, to the land I am giving the children of Israel.

What does it mean to be gathered to one's people? Why does Moses need to die on the mountain? Is he climbing while he dies or does he stop and then die? What is the difference between betraying and not sanctifying? Is there anything significant about being able to see the land, rather than just dying without having seen it?


Those are all just questions to spark conversation but please go anywhere with this. I want to try, however, presenting this whole parsha this way since it's not too long of a parsha.

Dauer

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by dauer

What does it mean to be as the pupil of His eye?

Just a quick comment on this one.

25 Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."

From the Gospel of Thomas. Interesting that in Deut it is G!d protecting the people like the pupil of His eye, here Jesus exhorts the friends to love and protect each other. This goes along with my thinking that even though I believe G!d breaks through and acts in the world, I think this occurs mainly through the actions of people who follow this exhortation to love and protect and lift up each other.

Perhaps this was just a common saying, much as the 'apple of my eye' is a common saying referring to someone you love dearly. Could be that 'apple of my eye' even derives from 'pupil of my eye.'

lunamoth

[pohaikawahine]

my copy of deuteronomy is translated as "He encircled him, gave mind to him, watched him like the apple of His eye" and didn't use "pupil of His eye" .... also 32:8 is translated as "he set out the boundaries of peoples, by the number of the sundry gods" and the commentary says that "the Masoretic Text reads lemispar beney yisra'el, "by the number of the sons of Israel" .... I know my translations of symbols are not very conventional, but these descriptions still make me think of the internal process .... "he encircled him, gave mind to him" .... and the 12 pairs of cranial nerves are the "sons of Israel" .... "he suckled him honey from the craig and oil from the flinty stone" may be related to the 'land of milk and honey' which, in my view, are chemicals released during meditation in the brain and there are two small glands that the energy must pass through called something like the "olivaries" (I need to check this one out for exact spelling) but this is suppose to be what the symbol of the olive oil is related to ....


"the eagle" is many times a symbol of the upper heavens where the spiralling energy must move .... this can also be seen in the symbol of the country of Mexico, the eagle with the snake .... "Like an eagle who guards over his nest, over his fledglings he hovers" ....

the commentary in my copy says that "Jeshurun is an epithet for Israel" and "Hosea is a variant form of Joshua" .... he also says that "32:8 When Elyon gave estates to nations .... Elyon (the HIgh One) is the sky god of the Canaanite patheon, who appears to have been assimilated into biblical monothesism as an epithet for the God of Israel. The use of this designation probably reflects the antiquity of the poem"

the poem seems to take everything said in Deuteronomy and weave it together in a powerful finale to reinforce all the lessons at all levels .... it sends its message right to the heart and stamps it in our memories .... this is important for it is the only way in which we will find the burial place of Moses in the last part of the text .... it seems to me that the constant reference to idols and false gods is a reminder that when we go outside of ourselves to seek sovereighty, we will not find it .... true freedom, true sovereignty can only be found through the inner path of God .... we battle, we work to overcome our human emotions, we struggle with each other, we struggle with ourselves and we see the promised land on the other side of the river .... and we go back to the beginning in Deuteronomy 5:27 "return you to your tents. And you, stand here by Me and I shall speak to you all the commands and the statutes and the laws that you will teach them, and they will do them in the land that I am about to give them to take hold of it. And you shall watch to do as the Lord your God has charged you. YOu shall not swerve to the right or left. In all the way that the Lord your God has charged you shall you go so that you live and it will be well with you,and you will long endure on the land of which you take hold." It all speaks to me of the process of revelations and visions and the opening of the inner eye. he hawai'i au, poh

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Just a quick comment on this one.


From the Gospel of Thomas. Interesting that in Deut it is G!d protecting the people like the pupil of His eye, here Jesus exhorts the friends to love and protect each other. This goes along with my thinking that even though I believe G!d breaks through and acts in the world, I think this occurs mainly through the actions of people who follow this exhortation to love and protect and lift up each other.

Perhaps this was just a common saying, much as the 'apple of my eye' is a common saying referring to someone you love dearly. Could be that 'apple of my eye' even derives from 'pupil of my eye.'

lunamoth

interesting. maybe there are two apples. one in the eye & one you look at & love.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dauer

Deuteronomy 32:1-32:52. I will be gone later in the week for Yom Kippur. Please keep each other busy. Blah blah blah. Last week may have been sparse, but I agree with bandit that it was great. It felt like it was turning into more of a discussion. Good stuff.

"1. Listen, O heavens, and I will speak! And let the earth hear the words of my mouth! 2. My lesson will drip like rain; my word will flow like dew; like storm winds on vegetation and like raindrops on grass. 3. When I call out the name of the Lord, ascribe greatness to our God. 4. The deeds of the [Mighty] Rock are perfect, for all His ways are just; a faithful God, without injustice He is righteous and upright. 5. Destruction is not His; it is His children's defect you crooked and twisted generation. 6. Is this how you repay the Lord, you disgraceful, unwise people?! Is He not your Father, your Master? He has made you and established you."

How do the heavens listen? How does the earth hear? What does it mean for a lesson to drip like rain and for words to flow like dew? What are perfect deeds? Do just ways equal perfect deeds? Why is God called "Rock" in this place? What is the significance of this name? What is the difference between being righteous and being upright? Is Moshe blaming destruction on Israel? What's the difference between crooked and twisted? Why is God called Father and Master? Why these two names in this place? Why Father and then Master?

Type up whatever you'd like. These are just some conversation starters.

Dauer

in the summer time, my grandma would sit on the front porch swing with me and tell me to watch & listen to the trees. she would say "the leaves are clapping their hands giving praise to God & the branches are raising up their arms giving worship to God."

i have always felt God was speaking in the thunder, or he was bowling, one or the other.

I think God is the rock of ages, the mighty rock that we can cling to when storms come & it does not move & He is just & righteous because He does not make mistakes.

Maybe the heavens listening is God listening to us & the earth listening is people listening to Him?

5. Destruction is not His; it is His children's defect you crooked and twisted generation.

hmmm. i suppose we can destroy ourselves because we get crooked thoughts & do twisted things. & it does not help when others put bad thoughts into our heads either.
i think we do have defects, but the defects can be made perfect if we allow Him to work on us & through us & let Him be with us in spirit while we are still in the flesh.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by pohaikawahine

the poem seems to take everything said in Deuteronomy and weave it together in a powerful finale to reinforce all the lessons at all levels .... it sends its message right to the heart and stamps it in our memories .... this is important for it is the only way in which we will find the burial place of Moses in the last part of the text .... it seems to me that the constant reference to idols and false gods is a reminder that when we go outside of ourselves to seek sovereighty, we will not find it .... true freedom, true sovereignty can only be found through the inner path of God .... we battle, we work to overcome our human emotions, we struggle with each other, we struggle with ourselves and we see the promised land on the other side of the river .... and we go back to the beginning in Deuteronomy 5:27 "return you to your tents. And you, stand here by Me and I shall speak to you all the commands and the statutes and the laws that you will teach them, and they will do them in the land that I am about to give them to take hold of it. And you shall watch to do as the Lord your God has charged you. YOu shall not swerve to the right or left. In all the way that the Lord your God has charged you shall you go so that you live and it will be well with you,and you will long endure on the land of which you take hold." It all speaks to me of the process of revelations and visions and the opening of the inner eye. he hawai'i au, poh

i agree. it can only be found on the inner path of God & that is the only way to stay straight & not be crooked.
evryone goes to the tents but you, stay here with me & i will speak to you. that is how the earth hears & the heavens listen when we dont swerve & stay in the commandments, heaven hears us. Heaven does hear us

[dayaa]

hi all ....sorry going off the point a bit but i just thought i'd throw in a little bit of colourful information. mount nebo is a really weird place. you can park your car there, put it in neutral, take off the hand brake and the car actually rolls up hill! done it myself....no tricks....amazing

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dayaa

hi all ....sorry going off the point a bit but i just thought i'd throw in a little bit of colourful information. mount nebo is a really weird place. you can park your car there, put it in neutral, take off the hand brake and the car actually rolls up hill! done it myself....no tricks....amazing

hi Daya! glad to see you are still around

i have always wanted to go to one of those places & roll UP the hill.