Interfaith as a Faith

[jiii]

originally posted by Bolo

Interfaith to such religions is not the same thing that it is to tolerant folk. They see it as nothing but a convenient ruse to gain more ground to promote their own particlar brand of intolerance from. I have seen this several times from so-called outreaches to various faiths.

originally posted by arthra

There can be a recognition that we all have to pull together to achieve things...
If they draw back and refuse it makes them look elitist and snobby.

Good point. Maybe those people are participating out of somewhat selfish desires, but at least they are putting themselves into a situation where they will have to be honest about it one way or another. For someone that may never have had to be honest about it for, really and truly honest, that experience could very well bring about some precedented self-reflection. It's easy to ignore in the dark, but everything changes when brought out into the light or day.

[arthra]

Yes I agree... You don't giveup on people even after they've become fundamentalists as human beings we always have potential for change.

I was thinking it might be valuable if we shared some of our actual experiences in Inter-faith situations.

I've been involved in my city's inter-faith community for about five years or so.. and we 've had an inter-faith choir along with inter-faith forums and celebrations.

Maybe in sharing there could be ideas we could share.

- Art

[InLove]

Hi, Peace--

Wow--an interfaith choir sounds like an interesting endeavor. I imagine that a great deal of understanding and thought would be required during the song selection process.

I have witnessed some successful interfaith food and clothing drives in my city. Everyone has been so busy sorting through the items and making sure they reach their intended destination that no one has time to argue theology.

I have some other ideas about common charitable goals, but I am still thinking them through. Sometimes (make that almost always?) there are a few unforeseen kinks. But if people on both sides are truly dedicated to a good cause, usually there are more pros than cons, and folks tend to learn how to work together. Blessings all around....

InPeace,
InLove

[arthra]

Inlove wrote:

an interfaith choir sounds like an interesting endeavor. I imagine that a great deal of understanding and thought would be required during the song selection process.

My reply:

Yes it was really a pretty exciting thing and came together from consultation in our Council.. A Muslim had drafted a song which called for peace and unity and a Mormon developed the music for it and a Conservative Jewish lady directed the choir. Children in choir were mostly Muslims and Christians. It was a fine collaborative effort and came off splendidly, this was for a Mayor's Prayer Breakfast last June.

- Art

[bolo]

I get the distinct feeling that there are some people with hope and inspiration in their hearts on this forum. That is admirable. However, I have to confess that there is also an awful lot of naivety as well. Interfaith with the powers of fundamentalism (even on a small scale) is an historical issue and fundamentalism itself has always been the winner in such events. Again, just look at global rulers for proof of this. The absolutist faiths that I allude to will never, under any circumstances, accept the fairness of true interfaith liaisons: that just isn’t on their mission – based agenda. Just because a few of the more liberal-minded adherents of these particular religions choose to try and repair theocratical bridges you must keep in mind the fact that the leaders of these systems believe they have a sacred duty to evangelise – that is gain your soul for ‘their’ version of the godhead. They will not permist a few well-meaning folk to change this no matter how much you wish they would. That is why they become interested in interfaith ‘not’ to make new friendships with you and carry on in love and acceptance. They are not interested in respect or tolerance or even peace. They believe they are in a state of spiritual warfare and that they must infiltrate in order to convert. That is their mission and that is clearly stated not only in their ancient holy scriptures but also their contemporary writings and ecclesiastical statements. Allah is God, Jesus is the only way etc and they will not ever amend their dogmatic credo. Their way is the only true way and although a few of their followers may wish that things were different the supposedly holy scriptures that they have fought and died to preserve for hundreds of years will no be allowed to change! Death to the infidel or onward Christian soldiers will forever be the true motivation of their crusades for dominance and to keep the monopoly on power and I'm sorry to say guys but a handful of polite people in a mixed choir will not make any difference at all. Anyone who fails to share their absolute doctrine will be treated with the same old sugar and spice that has put them at the top of their power tree today. Potential for ‘change’ is very largely one-sided and results in yet more conversions from other tolerant faiths.


Cozy meetings such as the many missioary-based Alpha Courses have resulted in mass evangalisation of people from other faiths. The clever techniques used at such events have been compared to hypnosis by many experts. That's just one small example of how these crafty evangelists get into peoples' heads at togetherness love gatherings. A lovely trusting friend of mine was made to feel like a leper and get really depressed; she refused to take the matter further after she went to one or two Alpha meetings and was even told that she was playing with the devil by not signing up to the whole Alpha thing.


I am surprised that I seem to be the only poster who has had experience of this sort of matter. And no I am not only alluding to a few right wing political activists yet even if I were then who do you think put then in such high positions of power? Someone (millions) voted them in, millions of ordinary trusting people who believe in the biased message they are promoting – a message that has little to do with any amounts of love and tolerance. The lot that promote the Alpha thing are often okay folk but they also have attracted a lot of fanatics that want to force their credo down your throats. You don't always get to find out WHO they are until you have been interfaithing with them for quite a while. We need to be honest about these things and not brush them under the carpet with a blind eys turned before we can go forward into better times. Inviting the missionary forces of fundamentalism to tea has its price - history has shown us this sobering fact many times! They win you lose - that is just the way they play it and that's why they rule the world!




"We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say, 'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"

Pat Robertson


So would you be quite happy with committed believers him and his ‘Christian Coalition’ at interfaith gatherings? Do you think he would be interested in acceptance and tolerance of other faiths?


"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."--

Pat Robertson




Yes – such people claim a monopoly on ‘love’ yet do you really, honestly, think that excluding them for interfaith is such a bad thing? They may love you but behind the scenes they concider you to be in league with Satan. It's just the way they are trained/conditioned to manipulate the mass public mind set. Alas, as I have sought to say that never change and never will.

They have eons of previous expertise at their disposal and have all the answers to your questions. I realise that many herein as such trusting individuals will disregard most of my comments yet I can only hope that a few who do take heed will be given a greater awareness that all that glitters is NOT gold at interfaith.

[InLove]

Dear bolo--

I don't know a whole lot about Pat Robertson. I do know that he ran for president of the United States, but could not get elected. If the quotes here are his words, then they don't look like sneaky "sugar-and-spice" tactics to me.

Are you trying to force people who say things like this to "play well with others"? Why?

Like I said before, if people claim to be Christians, but do not reflect a Christ-like attitude (and I'm not saying that humans don't slip up now and then), then they are not really fundamentalists. They are political activists, or egotists, or any number of things. And this does not apply just to Christians--it applies to any person or group of people who claim a particular philosophy but do not show it in their actions.

And yes, I agree--it is a problem in this world. But nothing a few "naive" choir members can't overcome. Wars and crusades will come and go, but Truth lives forever.

InPeace,
InLove

[bolo]

InLove

I find it hard to take your comment at all seriously:

And yes, I agree--it is a problem in this world. But nothing a few "naive" choir members can't overcome.

You ARE joking yes (funny if so, lol good one)? If not however then we are in a bigger mess than I had previously though possible! No one can be that naive can they?

Are you really suggesting the old Coke advert jingle will fix everything - "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.... "

Dream on if so my friend..

[bolo]

Like I said before, if people claim to be Christians, but do not reflect a Christ-like attitude (and I'm not saying that humans don't slip up now and then), then they are not really fundamentalists.

Cannot quite get my teeth aroung that one either. Are you really suggesting that the Christian Coalition (with all its committed members) and thousands/millions like it are NOT Christian? They deeply believe that their attitude (private and theocratical) is MUCH more fundamentally accurate that mine, yours or anyone elses!

Odd

[InLove]

Peace--

I don't know much more about the Christian Coalition than I do Pat Robertson. I only know bits and pieces, mostly from what I read in the papers and see on television. And I admit that I know absolutely nothing about the missionary program you mentioned.

I will try and do some research so that I can be better informed.

I do know that there are millions of people who call themselves fundamentalists. What I am trying to tell you is that, in my opinion, they are not if they do not in actions reflect the fundamental values of the faith or philosophy they express with their words. And even their words give them away sometimes. I think perhaps you and I are in disagreement over terminology more than anything else. Some might call it "semantics", but that implies that it isn't important to distinguish one term from another. It is important in this case.

I do agree with you that there will be people who will follow others, at least for a while, without really understanding the alignment they have chosen. And there will probably always be someone out there who can and will shout louder and longer than someone else. But the majority of the people do not shout all day. A lot of them are focused on common ideals that transcend philosophy and religion and work toward a better world. Often this happens in small, dedicated groups or one-on-one. And I say that "word-of-action" in bits and pieces speaks volumes.

That said, I want you to know that your sentiments are not lost on me. nor are your words in vain. I will take a closer look. Understanding is the objective, after all.

InPeace,
InLove

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by bolo

Yes I think “respect” is the hot word herein. The problem is that absolutist faiths that claim to have the only worthwhile monopoly on truth and light and see others as satanically- inspired, due to bigoted teaching from their holy books, seldom respect others.

I mean adherents to a religion that claims to have the ‘only’ way to the godhead (i.e. so-called Gospel truth) can never really respect other faiths, not really if they are honest (which they are not). It just is not in their nature.

This is a large and ongoing problem for many more tolerant who naively people believe that its all about trust and respect and YES it is for these folks yet NOT for the fundamentalists that get in by the back door and seek to use the system as nothing but a platform to convert and manipulate.

And yes I know that many Christians and Muslims etc of a more let’s say ‘amicable’ nature may wish that it was not so but the evangelicals (the hardline right wingers) always have the last word as they actually ‘follow’ the doctrine of their faiths as set out in the scriptures accurately.

It is a problem.

I like how you pin-point the exact problem with fundamentalists. It's not just a lack of respect; it's outright fear. They cannot trust anyone outside their own trusted circles. They believe the devil is out to get them in whatever shape or form. So long as I remained a member in good standing in my parents' church I was warey of who I talked to about religion. I was not aware of this fear, but the minute I left I found myself talking freely with Catholics, Anglicans, whoever. The church I was born into had let me down and I no longer cared who I talked to. If that church wasn't "real" then no church was real. That's basically how I felt. Huge claims make huge accountability. They made huge claims and they failed to live up to those claims.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by DrFree

Over this time I've come to the recognition that interfaith is my faith. Interfaith is for me not merely tolerating other faiths, not even merely respecting other faiths, not even promoting joint interaction. The true interfaith spirit is the recognition that all religious practices that promote love for everyone are essentially right, they are part of God's hope for humanity. (Not purpose! God's hope is that we freely choose a worthwhile purpose.)

Have you ever checked out the definition for universalism? I'm not sure what it is myself but I came across the term in sociology of religion and I got the idea it is the kind of religion where you believe all religions are good. I did have the impression that it meant Christians who accept all other religions as equal to their own. If that is the case, then you do take it a step further. I really like the similarities you point out. I am simply amazed to see someone express my own beliefs so well. Thanks for sharing.

Ruby

[arthra]

I think that it begins for me on the local level where you live.. so in your own community check out what your Inter-faith Council is doing or maybe help organize one. Our Inter-faith Council began as a Community of Churches a mostly Christian organization but over the years non-Christians began participating until in 1997 it became an Inter-faith Council.

Yes "bolo" can say that we've all got our heads in the clouds and are naive ...that's alright with me, because the payoff comes when we support each other and have common goals. I suppose my community may be more idealistic than yours...be that as it may..there is still work to be done I think wherever we are...

If we are patient and work together a lot can be accomplished! Or we can just hang our heads and not do anything I suppose but that's just against my nature.

- Art

[DT Strain]

By the way, that is an excellent list of golden rules DrFree. I hope you don't mind if I present it on my blog (with links and credit back to here of course).

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by DrFree

If you know of other versions, please let me know.

This thread.

[bolo]

If we are patient and work together a lot can be accomplished! Or we can just hang our heads and not do anything I suppose but that's just against my nature.

I will happily interfaith with any pluralistic and tolerant faith system that does not insist that I am a follower of Satan just because I may disagree with a one-sided fundamentalist world viewpoint and I certainly do not hang my head to anyone. However certain vital points need addressing.

By seeking to interfaith with TOLERANT faiths and the good-natured adherents within these ranks we are certainly doing much and moving forward. Alternatively, by Interfaithing with a rampant theocratical monster that sees us all as nothing more than cold ‘Mission Targets’ (souls in urgent need of conversion and salvation) we jeopardise virtually everything and achieve the ‘exact’ opposite of what we originally started out to accomplish. Fundamentalism does not know how to interfaith – it only knows how to convert! One choice is based on common-wisdom and good sense whilst the other is based on naivety, ignorance and misplaced loyalties. Genuine Interfaith liaison certainly does NOT require the permission or blessing of wholesale fundamentalism to evolve. The opposite is indeed true – fundamentalism needs to change yet it is stuck forever in Dark Age superstition, bigotry and ignorance.

The overtly trusting types amongst us will never appreciate this truth yet many will come to realise the reality of the situation, either by direct or indirect confrontation with the forces of intolerance that we have so far debated.