Insight on the Writing of the Gospels

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I think the point here is that Jesus Christ is not an element within a system or spiritual hierarchy - esoteric otherwise - he is that which causes all things to be:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This contradicts your essential message that Christ is a cog in an esoterists' spiritual wheel.

Thomas

Well, this is where we'll have to agree to disagree - unless you want to disagree that we disagree, which is double disagreement, yet still brings us no closer to the same page.

From the standpoint of Christian theology, what you say is not surprising and is only to be expected. Of course you will insist that Christ is central, and key ... and go further and make a God of Him. But I maintain that it is you who bestow this identity upon him, or as Voltaire puts it:

"If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated."

The esotericist distinguishes the Initiate Jesus of Nazareth (now a high Adept) from the still more lofty being, The Christ, and recognizes in the latter everything that the Christian recognizes - but does not "shut the door." Instead of saying, Christ is all of which Man is capable - then contradicting himself in his very next breath ... it is acknowledged that Christ became Who and What He is precisely by following the same advice He has given us. Upon this truth rests the authority and validity of his Word(s).

And so the reading of such Holy Scriptures as the Gospels, and many other still Holier writings, will proceed differently. Instead of always making the (incorrect) assumption that man is destined to fail (owing to so-called "original sin"), the esotericist makes the Universal assumption that we are destined to succeed, to triumph, over the world of sin and matter (which are distinguished, save by those who call themselves `Gnostics'). And why is it safe to make such an assumption? Because we have seen it again and again, made true through the crucible of this world's tests & trials - administered esoterically by the energies of Scorpio, which temper the disciple via the tests of Saturn, or Satan.

Yet, all of this will be either absurdity to the Christian, or he will accuse the esotericist or heresy and idolatry. And this he will do only because the Church has taught him thus, not because he knows it from his own experience. At best, his experience can confirm for him that the nature of this world involves challenges and apparent injustice, and so he looks to the next world for his reward, and for the balancing of debts and merits. But the esotericist, knowing that God has not failed in His administering of Justice ("not a sparrow falls") ... does not look to the next world, nor to any outside agent - for his salvation. He accepts the words of the Christ literally and as such, and accepts the challenge to be all that God has intended for him to be - and while still in this world, to boot!

Now it will certainly take him many lifetimes, but the sooner he gets started the better - instead of sitting around arguing about various absurdities ... or quibbling with those who have yet to accept that all Great Teachers showed us the Law of Rebirth, the Law of Karma, and the Great Law of Love. Knowing that the words of Christ's own spiritual Brother and esoteric counterpart (in the East) are sound, he acts on Buddha's last piece of advice to His bhikkus, and to Humanity:

"I taught you not to believe merely because you have heard, but when you believed of your consciousness, then to act accordingly and abundantly."

Because of humility, many an esoteric student who knows will begin various statements with such phrases as Thus have I heard or It has been said. On the one hand, this may be no different than to say, God has said ... yet as soon as one proclaims, "God told me X" - the safest policy will be to either disregard X entirely, or weigh it carefully with the proverbial grain of salt. No student who truly knows would utter truth in such manner. None. Thus the adage: To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be SILENT.

Yet I babble on, incur great karma, and have rendered disservice to my Group on so many occasions, that I sometimes wonder why I still have a tongue! The Lord forgives (for the old Jehovah with his wrath and jealousy and host of anthropic pettinesses does not exist) ... yet the Law of Karma is inexorable. Ignorance is no sin, but only the greatest of misfortunes in the present World Age. Spiritual stubbornness, on the other hand, is quite lamentable.

Part of the challenge, as I see it, is one not for simply the Christian aspirant, but for those of all backgrounds, whether religious or not. The Christian will simply construe it, or comprehend and face it, in a fairly characteristic and predictable way. This universal challenge is thus: Since our fundamental identity is One with GOD (and on this point there can be no dispute - unless one wishes only to argue with & within oneself) ... how are we to relate to (let alone Identify with) our true SELF and yet remain humble, and human? How can we maintain the virtue of humility, and not lose ourself to pride? The irony is that no sooner has the mystic glimpsed the merest twinkle of the true Nature of his own (and ALL Being), does he immediately become faced with an onslaught of all of his worst vices and human weaknesses - which present themselves to him not as something undesirable and limiting, but rather as the familiar and more comfortable "self" with which he has long identified, and whose very existence is now threatened (doomed) if he is to become what he truly & essentially is.

It does no good to attempt to wrestle with this problem proverbially, or intellectually. We will not find our answer there. The struggle is an intimately personal one, being the beginnings of the very challenge between the Angel of the Presence ... and the Dweller (on the threshold of Divinity) - which will one day, in some future life, engulf him entirely - until one emerges victorious and triumphant. This is the greatest of human dramas, has been successfully faced by dozens (perhaps hundreds, even thousands) of souls throughout history (and not just one) ... and it presents itself to the Race as a whole at this very moment. We may not be facing the final conflict (for that comes much later), but Humanity is on the verge, the threshold, of an Initiation. Call it a conversion if you will, that does not change the reality, or the nature, of the challenge - and the opportunity.

But materialism still reigns supreme in the lives of millions, and apathy is always acceptable if there are no consequences. Our Piscean individuality - once a positive quality (which is still the case for some), is fast becoming a detriment to our well-being and a threat to further progress. The Aquarian (person, let alone disciple) is one who is learning to cooperate with the group, and at the greatest level - there is but one group: Humanity. We do not need to agree on all accounts and in every particular, but if there is no acceptance of our spiritual nature (under some category, heading, or school of thought), then there can be no concept of personal Responsibility. What does the Good of the Whole matter, if the actions of the individual have no repercussions upon his friend, neighbor and brother?

Because of this problem, the Hierarchy (Spiritual Government, Elder Brothers, `Christ and His Church') - call Them what you will, just so you acknowledge Them ... the Hierarchy has taught Brotherhood for several centuries now, and every effort has been made to demonstrate this principle for and with the aspirants and disciples who are capable of living the Ideal. If one looks around, dozens of esoteric groups can be found, in practically every country, every state of the US, and in (or near) most major cities of the world. Often there are entire communities of individuals who have dedicated their lives to the salvation of the planet. And while I really do not want to level criticism against groups (for these are the seed of salvation), I do find it somewhat depressing that there are so many people still beleaguered by the same old theological thorns which imprison, torture and all but defeat - the human spirit. "God, save MY soul ... but nevermind my Brother."

Were it my role, and privilege, to serve in such a capacity, I would gladly wield the Sword of Manjushri (to which The Christ also referred, since He wields it, too) - and cut away the lies and deceptions. I would gladly place such evils upon the threshing floor, remove the chaff, and offer my brother the fruits of the Harvest. Yet there is too much presumption, and I do not know another's karma well enough to say what s/he needs, and what form of the Wisdom best suits ... which Wisdom is so vast, and my familiarity with it, so small. I would throw away the wheat, unwittingly, and hand my brother an empty husk - not because I am ill-intentioned, but simply because, one must live the Truth, if one is to speak of it, spread it, and share it. How can we give, what we do not ourself possess?

I could go on like that, but instead, I would only ask that you apply the same standard. Please do likewise. I enjoy discussion, and am often long-winded, and am usually well-intentioned. But as I strive to exercise better judgement, and speak perhaps more carefully about that which remains for me Ideal (since I can hardly say it has become practical), please be sure to do likewise. I do not sense a stone, for I can eat what you have handed me. I have done so before. I do so now. I am grateful, because without, I would often go hungry. However impalatable, I only ask that you look more carefully at what I've suggested. If I've handed you a serpent, you will know what to do with it; but you see, snakes are not the only things with scales.

Andreas Bar-abbâ

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I think the point here is that Jesus Christ is not an element within a system or spiritual hierarchy - esoteric otherwise - he is that which causes all things to be:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This contradicts your essential message that Christ is a cog in an esoterists' spiritual wheel.

Thomas

Didn't I imply that? (lol)

[Thomas]

Indeed you did.

In fact, re-reading your post, you sum the point up nicely:

Why throw away a promise?

I've been reading too much philosophy, the enemy of common sense!

Pax,

Thomas

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Indeed you did.

In fact, re-reading your post, you sum the point up nicely:

Why throw away a promise?

I've been reading too much philosophy, the enemy of common sense!

Pax,

Thomas

Let us be clear (since we seem to be harping upon this point). No man, nor a God - not even the God ... can do for us, what we cannot, will not, or do not wish, to do by and for ourselves.

This is why, for all the inspiration and proverbial charm of the poem Footsteps, we will always fall short of grasping the dual nature of the Christ (in His relationship to man) ... unless we complement Margaret Powers' beautiful poem with Rudyard Kipling's IF.

The way I learned this poem, we made one small adaptation, as eight different individuals each recited four lines before an audience. For the penultimate word, `Man,' we substituted "TRP" - standing for Totally Responsible Person. For an esoteric rendering, we might equally well substitute the word Christ, for Man.

This is perhaps a good opportunity to bring up the tale about the man and the flood, and his faith in God which was ultimately supposed to save him. "The Lord will provide," seemed to have become this man's motto, and thus, e'en though the waters did rise, he remained content that he would be delivered - for indeed, he had been promised! And so, two rowboats and a helicopter later, the man was still singing the same old song, until finally, the flood-waters washed him away! Standing before the throne of God Almighty, the man looked puzzled, and asked, "Why did I die? I have always had strong faith, and believed in your promise. Why didn't you save me?" The mystified Lord gave this old fool a look of bewilderment, and said, "You idiot, I sent two rowboats and a helicopter! What were you waiting for!?! Next time, at least meet me half way!"

Once again ... I will quote a parable from The Vision of the Nazarene - as told in Jesus' own words, to a recent disciple (all emphasis is in the original):

I will tell thee a parable. Know that once there were two countries, and the one was a land flowing with milk and honey, and the other an arid region, full of strife and unrest, so that the one was called the Land of Bliss and the other was called the Land of Woe. But between these two countries was a swift, wide and dangerous river, and many who sought to cross that river lost their lives in the attempt.
And then one day there came a man who, because of his love for the people, said: “Lo, I will endeavour to place a rope from one bank to the other, and even if I lose my life in the attempt, what matter, for others will henceforward be able to cling to the rope and so cross the river in safety.”
So saying, that man proceeded to carry out his design; and having procured a rope, he fixed one end to a tree, and made a noose at the other, and plunged into the current to battle with the waves.
But while he was battling, some hunters who had come to the bank shot at him with their arrows and mortally wounded him; for amidst the spray and the splash of the waters they deemed him to be some animal and not a man at all.
Nevertheless, with a last and great effort, he managed to throw the noose of his rope round the stump of a tree, ere he sank beneath the waves; and thus had he carried out his design, though he lost his life because of those hunters and their lack of discernment.
Now when the people saw what had happened, they began to worship him as a hero, saying he died to save us, and so is he worthy of our adulation and love.
And yet although they worshipped him, only a very few attempted to cross the river, for they said within themselves: “Even though the rope is there and we cannot drown if we cling thereto, yet are the waters cold, and the river is wide, and the trouble of crossing is very great.”
And so in the course of time, the rope was almost forgotten; moreover, through disuse it had become covered with weeds and entangled in the fallen branches of old trees, so that hardly did it look like a rope at all.
But the worship of that hero continued nevertheless; and monuments were erected to his memory, and people sang songs of adulation to him and prayed to him because of his great love for them.
And then as a second and third and fourth generation of men came into being, there arose wiseacres and orators and men of learning; and of the hero they preached, and how he had died to save others; but of the rope across the river they never spoke, for now it had been forgotten altogether.
And so great a confusion arose by reason of their arguments and oratory and teachings, that finally many superstitions came to be, both among themselves and among their hearers; and only the very few were able to discern between folly and truth.
And much discord was sown amongst them, so that they quarreled and fought; and those few who were able to discern the truth, they persecuted and reviled, so that the country called the Land of Woe became more stricken with sorrow and unrest than already it was.
And then at last a body of orators arose, and they cried: “Why this strife? All that is needful is to worship this hero as a god, and to believe that he died to save others, and lo! When we ourselves die we shall go to the country called the Land of Bliss without any trouble at all. For although our bodies cannot float across the river while we are alive, our souls will float across it when we are dead. Moreover, so great were his love and power and heroism, that all we ask of his Spirit he will surely do, if we but shower enough love upon him in return.”
Then when the populace heard this, they were overcome with exceeding joy, and heaped honours upon those orators, saying: “Great is their wisdom, for they have shown us an easy way. Simple indeed is it to worship and to pray and to ask our hero to save us when we die; so now let us eat, drink and be merry and make the best of our sojourn in our Land of Woe.”
But meanwhile the spirit of that hero looked upon his brothers with sadness in his eyes as he listened to their prayers and petitions. And into their ears he whispered:
“My children, ye do err, for verily I lived to save you, and my death was but an incident of my attempt, and can never be the cause of your salvation.”
“Alas that ye should have forgotten the rope which I placed across the River between the Lands of Woe and Bliss, for to that end did I come and to no other.”
“And although because of my love for you, my spirit is close to you and would fain comfort and cheer you in your adversities, yet carry you across the River I cannot, however much ye may pray and implore.”
But although that hero spoke to them thus, yet too loud did they utter their prayers and petitions to hear the still small voice of his spirit, so did they remain in the Land of Woe.
And the Radiant One said, as He smiled:
And now that is the end of my parable, and its name is superstition.
And I said:
Master! Have I understood Thy parable aright; and do I divine correctly its meaning? For those who come to regard the non-essential as the essential and to act accordingly, verily are they tainted with superstition.
And He answered:
My belovèd, thou has spoken truth. Moreover, know that as the Enlightened One (the Buddha) said very long ago, “Each one must carry out his own salvation.”
Nevertheless, thou canst help thy brethren, and in helping them canst serve me. For know that the greatest and best of all help is that which inspires man to help himself.
And I answered Him:
O Master, to this end didst Thou come, but Man has failed to understand?
And He answered:
Again hast thou spoken truth; for verily I have been misunderstood, ay, from the very first I have been misunderstood, and my Mission also, which was to show humanity the way.
And although mighty fanes have been dedicated to me and my name is engraven in countless books, and that which men think to be my likeness is in manifold places, even so, those very nations who profess to believe in me have not tried my way.
And I have been misrepresented even by my own chroniclers, and portrayed as addicted to unrighteous anger and conceit and gross self-aggrandizement, and other unseemly things.
Yet in spite of ascribing to me these inordinations have my followers wanted to exalt me to the status of Deity, and have quarreled over the manner in which I should be worshipped.
Worship! Did I ever ask for worship or adulation and for a deluge of flatteries to be poured into mine ears?
Verily, I came to point the way to Peace and fraternity through the education of the heart and the will to love all beings.
And to that end I gave to my disciples and to the world at large, many precepts and sayings. But despite my warnings, man hath misinterpreted those sayings, and even made them a plea for all manner of evil things – of hatred and warfare and uncharitableness and bigotry, or at best, not wishing to follow them, hath called them unpractical and the dreams of a visionary.
Thus have my devotees illogically deemed me to be “the only begotten Son of God” and a representative of God on earth, and at the same time have so greatly doubted His Wisdom as to assume that He would propound Divine Laws and rules of conduct impossible of carrying out!
Basic, spiritual Truths did I reveal to man for his right guidance, so that security and peace should be his on earth; ay, more than that, for, because of my love for him, I wished him to have Life and have it more abundantly, as I did say erewhile; meaning thereby that One Life which is Pure Being, Intelligence and Bliss – and is ultimately for all.
But, alas for my Mission, and, alas, for my burning hopes. And, alas, for the nations, who, although professing to love me, have sought not to keep my commandments, and so brought about their own undoing.
Belief in me yet disbelief in my precepts! – a strange and paradoxical belief is that indeed.
And so, my son, because men have misunderstood me and the purport of my Mission, do I seek, in these times of danger and crises and tribulations, to bring back many things to remembrance …

I see it simply thus: If the ship of Christianity can somehow dislodge itself from the rocks upon which it has run - according to its own Founder - then all the better for mankind. But unless I mistake the meaning of the Master in this parable, whose frank discussion and commentary that follow would seem to leave little room for confusion ... unless I prefer to argue, with Christ Jesus, I find myself in the humble position of wondering - what might I do ... to play my small part in the Great Work?

And yet, with all presumptuousness, all self-assuredness, and apparently a better knowledge of Christ and Christianity than that of its very Founder, it seems the world still rushes forward ... to do precisely what the Master has described, as He looks on and laments. Hero-Worship. And so much for actually crossing that bridge. Ahhh, we do not need to bother - if we but believe, since our souls will "go to Heaven."

I think that those who would sincerely know the Master's further thoughts, and accounts, of the present state of Christianity ... as well as His efforts unto the present day, and looking well into the future - would seek to either get ahold of writings such as this, in its entirety, or in the very least, open themselves to the possibility, that through a glass darkly is not a death sentence, and need not characterize our every last remaining day upon this planet. For in death, you will not find what you expect - although truly, you will find that, and more. Not so easy will it be, however, to summon one's energies, open one's mouth, and speak wait, slow down, tell me that again! It will be necessary to get used to the policy of one who "never repeats himself," and the Feather of Maat will be found to be far lighter, than even dandelion fluff.

Perhaps the inspiration for Within You, Without You (The Beatles) is not so obscure after all ...

We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it’s far too late-when they pass away.
We were talking-about the love we all could share-when we find it
To try our best to hold it there-with our love
With our love-we could save the world-if they only knew.
Try to realise it’s all within yourself
No-one else can make you change
And to see you’re really only very small,
And life flows within you and without you.
We were talking-about the love that’s gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don’t know-they can’t see-are you one of them?
When you’ve seen beyond yourself-then you may find, peace of mind,
Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see
We’re all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

As John later said, "How in the world you gonna see/Laughin' at fools like me(?)"

In Love, and Light,

Andreas Bar-abbâ

[Quahom1]

No, let us "christians" be clear on this issue. God/GOD can do any blessed thing He/She/It wants to do. And we have absolutely no say in the matter. We can't tell God "no" (or I guess we can, for the lot of good it will do us). We can refuse to do anything...you are correct. But there is a price to be paid (such is freedom of will). Your poem means not much, to one who refuses to follow the will of God...particularly concerning the Gospel messages.

The boats and helicopter issue was about blind faith, absent common sense...you seem to have forgotten that, unless you consider those of certain faiths absent of the same?

You were using "Footsteps" as a point...

That was a mistake.

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, let us "christians" be clear on this issue. God/GOD can do any blessed thing He/She/It wants to do. And we have absolutely no say in the matter. We can't tell God "no" (or I guess we can, for the lot of good it will do us). We can refuse to do anything...you are correct. But there is a price to be paid (such is freedom of will). Your poem means not much, to one who refuses to follow the will of God...particularly concerning the Gospel messages.

For some, the more personal idea of God serves well, while for others, a much more impersonal notion appeals. That is all I will say. In Hinduism, the difference is between Saguna Brahman, and Nirguna Brahman. You prefer the former, I prefer the latter.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "my poem" ... Rudyard Kipling's If? Regardless, please leave my relationship to God between me and God. My own, "personal" relationship (with my impersonal God) has little to do with the ideal of an accurate portrayal of Christ Jesus being the synthesis of Footsteps with If. I fail to see the how one particular instance could either prove or disprove the rule!

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The boats and helicopter issue was about blind faith, absent common sense...you seem to have forgotten that, unless you consider those of certain faiths absent of the same?

Blind faith, yes. Or the idea that somehow God owes us anything! Then again, if you personalize (read, anthropomorphize - i.e., project our human attributes upon) God, I suppose we can conceive of "Him" in darn well any way we choose, now can't we? Just seems like like Jesus of Nazareth would have a slightly better angle on things than either you and I - but then, I can really only speak for myself.

As for characterizing faiths, I would only go so far as to say that some are more devotional than others, while some are quite heavy on ritual, and others focus much on knowledge, or an intellectual approach. For some faiths, a blend of all three of these (and other attributes) seems to be characteristic. So long as we compare apples to apples, we're okay. As I do not really consider Esotericism (Occultism) a religion at all, I could only say that certain of these same elements are present, yet they serve a different function, even where there are similarities. The ritual involved, for example, is generally understood to be purely symbolic, and the heavy presence of a knowledge/jnana/intellectual component is in no way meant to preclude or substitute for a devotional component, if that is what appeals to the individual. But this gets a good bit away from the thread topic, and seems to be a tangent.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You were using "Footsteps" as a point... That was a mistake.

??? I'm not sure I see the mistake. The poem conveys one angle on a relationship with Jesus of Nazareth/The Christ. I'm simply suggesting that there are several angles, and that Kipling's If helps to balance Footsteps, which is otherwise lopsided. Certainly I'm entitled to my own opinions, yet if you will reread my post, I think you'll see that I give good reasons why I see the poems as complementary.

To be clear, Footsteps can depict an intimate personal relationship with Christed Jesus, yet there remains the idea of duality, or of a distinction between oneself and The Christ. Kipling's If does not eliminate the idea of a relationship, but he shows that in our times of adversity, our relationship with The Christ can be characterized as a looking within - so deeply, so sincerely .... honestly and with spiritual determination ... that Christ Immanent is seen to emerge and triumph, with a final coming into maturity as "a man" - and the same type of Man as was Christ Jesus. Or at least, that is what I was driving at, in the comparison of the two poems. Sometimes I do not spell things out, and perhaps leave too much to guesswork. Apologies if I was sufficiently vague regarding the reason for bringing up these poems.

Namaskar
andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

For some, the more personal idea of God serves well, while for others, a much more impersonal notion appeals. That is all I will say. In Hinduism, the difference is between Saguna Brahman, and Nirguna Brahman. You prefer the former, I prefer the latter.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "my poem" ... Rudyard Kipling's If? Regardless, please leave my relationship to God between me and God. My own, "personal" relationship (with my impersonal God) has little to do with the ideal of an accurate portrayal of Christ Jesus being the synthesis of Footsteps with If. I fail to see the how one particular instance could either prove or disprove the rule!

Blind faith, yes. Or the idea that somehow God owes us anything! Then again, if you personalize (read, anthropomorphize - i.e., project our human attributes upon) God, I suppose we can conceive of "Him" in darn well any way we choose, now can't we? Just seems like like Jesus of Nazareth would have a slightly better angle on things than either you and I - but then, I can really only speak for myself.

As for characterizing faiths, I would only go so far as to say that some are more devotional than others, while some are quite heavy on ritual, and others focus much on knowledge, or an intellectual approach. For some faiths, a blend of all three of these (and other attributes) seems to be characteristic. So long as we compare apples to apples, we're okay. As I do not really consider Esotericism (Occultism) a religion at all, I could only say that certain of these same elements are present, yet they serve a different function, even where there are similarities. The ritual involved, for example, is generally understood to be purely symbolic, and the heavy presence of a knowledge/jnana/intellectual component is in no way meant to preclude or substitute for a devotional component, if that is what appeals to the individual. But this gets a good bit away from the thread topic, and seems to be a tangent.

??? I'm not sure I see the mistake. The poem conveys one angle on a relationship with Jesus of Nazareth/The Christ. I'm simply suggesting that there are several angles, and that Kipling's If helps to balance Footsteps, which is otherwise lopsided. Certainly I'm entitled to my own opinions, yet if you will reread my post, I think you'll see that I give good reasons why I see the poems as complementary.

To be clear, Footsteps can depict an intimate personal relationship with Christed Jesus, yet there remains the idea of duality, or of a distinction between oneself and The Christ. Kipling's If does not eliminate the idea of a relationship, but he shows that in our times of adversity, our relationship with The Christ can be characterized as a looking within - so deeply, so sincerely .... honestly and with spiritual determination ... that Christ Immanent is seen to emerge and triumph, with a final coming into maturity as "a man" - and the same type of Man as was Christ Jesus. Or at least, that is what I was driving at, in the comparison of the two poems. Sometimes I do not spell things out, and perhaps leave too much to guesswork. Apologies if I was sufficiently vague regarding the reason for bringing up these poems.

Namaskar
andrew

Your personal relationship with a god is not in question, nor the issue. I have no intention of questioning your personal view on a god.

"Footsteps" is a decidedly Christian poem, or prose if you wish, and as such there is nothing "lopsided" about it. In the Christian faith, the promise of the poem is that The God would be there for the man who accepted and chose to follow Him, no matter what, yet in the aftermath of death, the man questions that very same God as to why he (the man), felt alone at certain times in his life...that is to say that man feels isolated at times, and becomes extremely self centered (often out of self preservation). The God assures us that we were never alone, but when life was so hard for us, that we were ready to give up, we managed to make it through to a new sunrise and new day...and we didn't do it alone.

There have been times wherein I was desperately trying to save a life (I won't get into details as it is irrelevent), but I knew I could not do it by myself. I was so tired, I didn't think I could take care of me either. On one occassion, I recall getting ready to quit, and suddenly remembering that "poem". I remember asking "where are you...", then next thing I knew I had the drowning kid, and a big assed wave was pushing us both towards shore (very fast). I think "we" (kid and me) invented the precurser to "body surfing", back in 1983...

We hit the beach (hard), and all I could think of saying was "Thanks for carrying us". The kid had nothing left, and I had nothing left (jersey rip tides will kill you).

There is nothing dualistic about it (the poem). We don't split our prayers between the Father and the Son. The poem/prayer is straight to the Son, as redeemer, and savior and GOD.

When we are at our weakest and lowest, that is when we are carried, never abandoned, but carried. And it is God who carries us. A very personal and powerful GOD, who takes extreme interest in us as individuals, to the point of doing for us, what we can't, when we are all used up...that is what the prose/poem means.

Nothing more, nothing less.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[brucegdc]

Hey Q - remember the section the posts are in. This is Pagan Esoterica, not Christianity. :-) Any resemblance to Christianity in data here is pure coincidence, and the Esoteric take on something is unlikely to map to
anything recognizable as Christianity (otherwise it would fit there not here).

Actually, good reminder for us all - consider where things are posted. A discussion within a faith-oriented subboard will and should primarily focus on the characteristics and viewpoints of that faith - not other faiths take on the same issues :-)

... Bruce (who has to keep scrolling to the top for a lot of these threads to see where they are and post appropriately, which does cut down on the posting somewhat)

[Quahom1]

I stand corrected, and my apologise.

v/r

Q

[Thomas]

Hi brucegdc

This is Pagan Esoterica, not Christianity. :-) Any resemblance to Christianity in data here is pure coincidence, and the Esoteric take on something is unlikely to map to anything recognizable as Christianity (otherwise it would fit there not here).

I accept that in the spirit in which it was intended - 'Pagan Esoterica' is a qualified esoterism, and so you are quite right in that regard.

I might add however that 'esoteric' unqualified (and it should always be qualified - esoteric is an adjective) should 'map' to every tradition.

That esoteric has become a noun - the esoteric - is in itself a failure to understand the mechanics of knowing.

Thomas

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi brucegdc

This is Pagan Esoterica, not Christianity. :-) Any resemblance to Christianity in data here is pure coincidence, and the Esoteric take on something is unlikely to map to anything recognizable as Christianity (otherwise it would fit there not here).

I accept that in the spirit in which it was intended - 'Pagan Esoterica' is a qualified esoterism, and so you are quite right in that regard.

I might add however that 'esoteric' unqualified (and it should always be qualified - esoteric is an adjective) should 'map' to every tradition.

That esoteric has become a noun - the esoteric - is in itself a failure to understand the mechanics of knowing.

Indeed. I am "off the beaten path" which stands before me, plain as day. This, I admit. Yet when asked, does that path have a name, I wonder if many people would really understand, "Yes, Occultism." So, I sometimes say, "Esotericism," as the word is less misunderstood. But of course, give it time.

Anyway, like the branches of the tree in my icon ... and as the Highlander would say - "There can be only one!" :P And just as the branches diverge from the trunk, there's an esoteric aspect of pretty much every world religion/faith/tradition. Since I regard them all as having emanated from the same source/place/Being, I have no problem saying I'm an aspiring Esotericist. And leaving the rest up to guesswork.

cheers,

andrew

[China Cat Sunflower]

Main Entry:es-o-ter-ic

Function:adjective
Etymology:Late Latin esotericus, from Greek es*terikos, from es*ter*, comparative of eis*, es* within, from eis into; akin to Greek en in — more at IN
Date:circa 1660

1 a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone *a body of esoteric legal doctrine — B. N. Cardozo* b : requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group *esoteric terminology* *esoteric strategies*; broadly : difficult to understand *esoteric subjects*
2 a : limited to a small circle *engaging in esoteric pursuits* b : PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL *an esoteric purpose*
3 : of special, rare, or unusual interest

"Esoteric is as esoteric does", mamma always said.

I don't know where, exactly, the cutoff point lies for what is esoteric. All of Christian eschatology could be considered esoterica. All that "Left Behind" stuff sorta fits the description. I take it that in this contexts esoteric is a thinly disguised elitist put-down. Whatever...

Chris

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't know where, exactly, the cutoff point lies for what is esoteric. All of Christian eschatology could be considered esoterica. All that "Left Behind" stuff sorta fits the description. I take it that in this contexts esoteric is a thinly disguised elitist put-down. Whatever...

Chris

On this last point, I have struggled with this notion more so in recent months than in a loooong while. Folks at CR have helped me to see much better what perhaps could (in my own presentation) come across as elitism, and I have found myself re-questioning all sorts of assumptions and digging up conundrums that haven't bothered me for ages. What it boils down to ... is the simple notion that there are those in this world who know more than we do - the Initiate (from definition #1), of varying degrees.

I should like to make it clear that I have never intended to even suggest that I consider myself to number among such ... yet I do know that they exist. If there is any question that esoteric Wisdom exists, then on the one hand each of us must pursue that quest on our own, although certainly we may (and probably should) do so either as part of a faith community, or as part of that Group with which we have come to identify ourself (even if we do not yet fully understand the inner dynamics, nature, or function of that Group). But on the other hand, what are we to do to the extent that we have pursued, and have found? Did not the Master say, "Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given, knock and the door shall be opened?"

The safest course is to begin with the Occult injunction: To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be Silent! And certainly there is always a fine line that we must be careful not to cross. The challenge that I've come up against, and have been facing for many years, is accepting that actions speak much louder than words. And so, as is being demonstrated on the thread about Mother Teresa, the world has come to listen to those who "walk the walk." Interesting. To be Silent - and people listen.

Mother Teresa is known, above all else, for her actions, including Love-in-Action, the greatest expression of Agape, or Compassion, which can exist. Sometimes, we simply call this Service. And it is the Way of the New Era. Christ preached this 2100 years ago, yet so few were ready to listen - and to apply his teachings. Every one of his closest apostles rejected, denied, or abandoned him ... save one, "the Beloved." What does this tell us about our readiness to walk the Higher Way?

What it tells me is that such souls are few and far between, even now, in this world. But in my experience, they do exist. I am confident that I have had the honor and privilege to have known quite a few in my life, already. And every single one, without exception, has been characterized by precisely the same Love-in-Action for which the whole world has come to know and revere Mother Teresa. To be certain, she must certainly be an avatar of a sort, perhaps a redeemer for Christianity itself. But she also serves as an example to us all of what we may accomplish. And the beauty of it, for me, is that she did what she did without becoming lost in dogma, in creeds, in petty disputes or bickering. She was 100% devoted to the Cause, and she proved something that will not only forever endure, but will, hopefully, continue to impact us as a living testament to what all of Humanity can accomplish, if we choose!

The very same Compassion, and commitment to the alleviation of suffering, which characterized the life of Mother Teresa, is central to the ideal presented by the Elder Brothers for literally millions of years - but especially in recent centuries. And every great soul who incarnated to help make the Great Ideal more concrete for us, has lived a life characterized by this same quality of Compassion. These have been the emissaries of the Brotherhood, and to strike a chord with the first post of this thread ... the Greatest Avatar of all to come to Humanity, the Christ, sent forth his would-be disciples as emissaries into many foreign lands - precisely to preach this same sermon of Peace, of Brotherly Love, and of Service to one's fellow man.

As evidence that His Return is already an accomlished fact, I point to the great gathering of youth 40 years ago, seeking as best they could to embody the ideals just mentioned. Fairly conditioned and distorted by the glamours of the astral plane, the hippies with their communes (Communities!!!) fell short of the ideal, beleaguered by drugs and a lack of organization. And yet they still managed to dramatically alter the course of the Vietnam War, with names like Arlo Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and the entire Woodstock concert immediately leaping to mind. Both before and certainly since then, many thousands of World Service organizations have come into being, as further proof that the same Forces of Love and Light are moving through this world now, as They once moved, equally openly, 2100 years ago, and many, many times before. I think it is a great tragedy - that so many have come to identify such Forces with one, single man. A Recognition of vital importance this is, surely, yet so many of the same individuals who raise Christ Jesus to Divinity within their own hearts and minds, do so at the expense of faith in their fellow man - or else would deny, in the same breath, that this same Christ Presence also dwells within their own hearts, their neighbor's hearts, their enemy's hearts, and yes - even in the heart of the most vile form or expression of evil that they can conceive. Easy it is, to love one's friends and closest family ... that isn't where the challenge lies. That isn't what Xianity was/is about, if I may be so bold (and I may).

I'm editorializing, and seeming to wander from the definition and significance of Esotericism ... yet since I have been reminded recently that deep down, Christianity and Esotericism are synonyms, I think all of this is quite relevant. We are grappling with some rather ominous forces in the world today, all of us. Every single one of us faces these at the individual level, where the battle between the Angel of the Presence against our personal devil is waged inwardly. This devil represents all which opposes our progress toward Divinity, self-understanding, and Enlightenment ... whether that be ignorance, oppression, hatred, war, materialism, or the many forms of personal evil & darkness with which we are all familiar. The same devil exists globablly, and with such large-scale factors mitigating against the Christ's Return, all of the Esoteric Brotherhood battles ceaselessly.

To guarantee the triumph of Love, Light & Purpose over evil, the Brotherhood has always stood with, and guided Humanity, just as the Christ within - the Solar Angel, as some call it - has always safeguarded the progress of the human soul, from life to life, until it reaches the final goal. That goal, is the same for an individual human as it is for the planet as a whole. There is but One Soul, and thus in a sense, but one human personality incarnate. There is One Prodigal, One Father, One Christ. As yet we do not perhaps look Heavenward with the same fixation of Purpose and determination which will one day be necessary, but the time is upon us when we must acknowledge the next step, and do so together! Christ's Return, the so-called "Second Coming" (of this Christ, yes, with many prior, and many hence) ... would not be necessary if there were no "next step." We can learn something about what that next step is for us all, for the planet, if we will take a look at our own lives. Vice versa, if we examine the recent unprecedented growth of and upon this planet ... I think we can learn a great deal - about ourselves.

This begins to say something about why I agree with the letter of one Teacher (a Theosophical Mahatma), which I read for the first time a few days ago, in which he states that as regarded by the Brotherhood, Occultism (Esotericism) and Christianity - are the same. I find that He writes as no other Teacher I am used to, and for being a Master on the Ray of Science, I am struck by the deep, abiding Love he demonstrates, and the great interest He evidences, when discussing Christianity. I find myself flipping through hundreds of letters, just to find what He has to say on the subject ... and it brings me Light, where perhaps this needed. Best of all, I am reminded of the Love, which is there - and which does grow, even while vast multitudes ... prepare for, and ensure, annihilation.

Namaskar,

andrew

[taijasi]

Two entries from G. de Purucker's Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary are also helpful here:

Esoteric [from Greek esoterikos pertaining to the inner] Applied to the advanced instructions given to qualified candidates in Mysteries or schools of philosophy, first used popularly in Greece by Aristotle. Jesus in the Bible had teachings for his disciples in private, and others for the public, precisely as all other ancient religious and philosophical teachers always had. Esoteric teachings both were and are such as could not be understood or profitably received by those not previously prepared by study and probation. Exoteric or outer teachings were often given in symbolic language which revealed the esoteric meaning only to those who were in possession of the keys to interpretation.

and

Occultism [from Latin occultus hid] The science of things behind the veils of nature both visible and invisible, things hidden from the multitudes. In theosophy frequently synonymous with the esoteric philosophy or secret doctrine. The study of genuine occultism signifies penetrating deep into the causal mysteries of universal being; the occult arts, by contrast, include psychism, black magic, hypnotism, psychologization, and similar uninstructed or malevolent uses of astral and mental forces.

The term occult has noble, but largely forgotten origins. It properly defines anything which is undisclosed, concealed, or not easily perceived. Early theologians, for example, spoke of "the occult judgment of God," while "occult philosopher" was a designation for the pre-Renaissance scientist who sought the unseen causes regulating nature's phenomena. In astronomy, the term is still used when one stellar body "occults" another by passing in front of it, temporarily hiding it from view. Writing a century ago, when the word had not acquired today's mixed connotations, H.P. Blavatsky defined occultism as "altruism pure and simple" -- the divine wisdom or hidden theosophy within all religions.

As the study or science of things which are hid and secret, occultism is a generalizing term because what is hid or secret in one age may readily be in a succeeding age more or less commonly known and open to public investigation. Many things that in medieval Europe were distinctly secret and therefore occult, are today the field of scientific investigation; and what is now considered to be occult, if science continues in its progress and research, may in the succeeding age in its turn become open and matter of common knowledge. Occultism then will simply have shifted its field of investigation and study to matters still more secret, still more recondite, still more deeply hid in fields of nature which are now scarcely suspected.

Theosophy or the wisdom-religion is the study of the ancient wisdom of the gods, and comprises in any one period that particular portion of knowledge which has been delivered to those who study it; whereas occultism in any age is that portion of the ancient wisdom dealing with matters which at such time are secret, hid, and unknown to the multitude. Thus occultism is that portion of theosophy which has not yet been openly and publicly promulgated. Occultism is founded on the principle that Divinity is concealed -- transcendent yet immanent -- within every living being. As a spiritual discipline occultism is the renunciation of selfishness; it is the "still small path" which leads to wisdom, to the right discrimination between good and evil, and the practice of altruism.

I've taken the liberty of highlighting in blue what seemed most important, to me, from these definitions. Blavatsky speaks a great deal about the distinction between Occultism and "the occult arts," and contrasts these most sharply with The Occult Sciences. Two further definitions illustrate:

Occult Arts Blavatsky in "Occultism versus the Occult Arts" (Studies in Occultism), distinguishes between occultism (gupta-vidya, the path of wisdom) and occult arts (evil occultism, sorcery, black magic, spells, incantations, etc.). While true occultism completely renounces self, the occult arts are practiced with selfish motives or from love of evil. Even where there is no sinister motive in one who ventures upon the occult arts, yet he enters a field where danger and destruction threaten unless he is protected by a training in true occultism. He will arouse in himself forces with which he cannot cope, open doors which later he seeks in vain to close, and put himself at the mercy of evil wills probably stronger than his own.

Occult Sciences The whole range of the sciences of the secrets of nature -- physical, psychic, mental, and spiritual; also "called Hermetic and Esoteric Sciences. In the West, the Kabbalah may be named; in the East, mysticism, magic, and Yoga philosophy, which latter is often referred to by the Chelas in India as the seventh 'Darshana' (school of philosophy), there being only six Darshanas in India known to the world of the profane. These sciences are, and have been for ages, hidden from the vulgar for the very good reason that they would never be appreciated by the selfish educated classes, nor understood by the uneducated; whilst the former might misuse them for their own profit, and thus turn the divine science into black magic" (TG 237).

I would submit that perhaps 98% of the elitism that one might seem to encounter when studying true Theosophy, or true Esotericism, is projected ... or in the very least, a matter of perception. It certainly depends on which author one reads, but it is impossible to read a letter, teaching, or true account of/from a Great One, an Elder Brother, and genuinely experience the slightest ego, or vanity. I don't know, perhaps that is what upsets people. Or perhaps, just perhaps, the book has been judged sight unseen - let alone the pages, or their contents, from the appearance of the cover. Indeed, - what book!?!

andrew

[taijasi]

I'd like to try and do proper justice in a 2nd attempt at replying to your comments, Q. My first msg was right-on, but somewhere I goofed (probably due to running a Beta OS!), so a week later I'm trying again. Let's see ...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

"Footsteps" is a decidedly Christian poem, or prose if you wish, and as such there is nothing "lopsided" about it. In the Christian faith, the promise of the poem is that The God would be there for the man who accepted and chose to follow Him, no matter what, yet in the aftermath of death, the man questions that very same God as to why he (the man), felt alone at certain times in his life...that is to say that man feels isolated at times, and becomes extremely self centered (often out of self preservation). The God assures us that we were never alone, but when life was so hard for us, that we were ready to give up, we managed to make it through to a new sunrise and new day...and we didn't do it alone.

Bah, the inspiration is gone ... but one thing that