Infant and child mutilation in abrahamic systems

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Might I add that Linen and Wool get washed at different temperatures... so says my washer-dryer

.

it's the shrink rate thing...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

it's the shrink rate thing...

Are you saying that it all comes out in the wash?

[lunamoth]

OK, experiencing major deja vu now. What a strange day.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Are you saying that it all comes out in the wash?

Ever try putting on a sweater from Ireland made of wool, after it accidently gets put in with the linen?

It may have started with XL made in Ireland...but ends up with XSM made in Ireland, while the "linens" are relatively still the same size...

v/r

Q

[flowperson]

Not to disrupt the fabric discussions, but there is a lot of anthropological evidence that circumcision has been practiced among tribes in West Africa for at least as long as it has been among the desert peoples. Any thoughts?

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Not to disrupt the fabric discussions, but there is a lot of anthropological evidence that circumcision has been practiced among tribes in West Africa for at least as long as it has been among the desert peoples. Any thoughts?

flow....

At the risk of repeating...seems they understood the hygene benefits, in a hot environment...

v/r

Q

[bananabrain]

(karimarie,

i guess the thing i thought might make a good discussion would be about egalitarianism in judaism in general, in particular as it relates to rabbanut, public prayer and the like. i kind of think it's something everyone gets their knickers in a twist about which i feel strongly is unnecessary. if it is OK to have "women's groups" and the like, then it ought to be OK to have an all-male minyan. that sort of thing. i understand you're considering converting, so i'd like you to have accurate information about the bits of judaism you're not comfortable with so you can make an informed choice. i agree with so-called "orthodoxy" about a lot of stuff and i disagree with it about a hell of a lot of stuff too. i haven't had a good chat about it for a while.)

now, as to this whole discussion about sand-in-the-foreskin, lactose intolerance and fabric shrinkage. to speculate about anthropological reason for all of these laws or customs is rather missing the point, or indeed rather pointing out exactly what the problem is, namely: if we do something because it's hygienic, or it's dietarily beneficial, or it avoids making our clothes baggy, that may be very interesting, but a commandment it isn't. that's the point. if something happened for historical or cultural reasons, it's not a religious obligation. that is the difference between the reasons i do things and the reasons you're all talking about, which brings me back to the main point of the discussion, which is this: save for a minority of medical cases, only on direct instruction from G!D would "i cut a bit off my baby", even such a relatively unimportant and superfluous bit.

the difference is this - if we do these things for medical, hygienic, dietary, or whatever reasons and those reasons no longer obtain (in other words, i don't live in the desert, so the chances of my getting sand under my hood is minimal) then there is no reason whatsoever why we shouldn't ditch the "custom". and, with that way of thinking, judaism would no longer exist, instead of being the sole surviving culture of antiquity.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i guess the thing i thought might make a good discussion would be about egalitarianism in judaism in general, in particular as it relates to rabbanut, public prayer and the like. i kind of think it's something everyone gets their knickers in a twist about which i feel strongly is unnecessary.

Ah... Perhpaps I'll start up a thread later today.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if it is OK to have "women's groups" and the like, then it ought to be OK to have an all-male minyan.

There's nothing wrong with any individual minyan being all-male... I do think that the Mishnaic law that women should not be counted for a minyan is absurd though. If you have ten Jewish adults, you have ten Jewish adults.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i understand you're considering converting, so i'd like you to have accurate information about the bits of judaism you're not comfortable with so you can make an informed choice.

I am of the belief that I have accurate information. I know what the reasons for the non-egalitarian practices are (the woman being spiritually perfect and not needing to study, fears of men becoming sexually aroused by women, etc.), but I do not think they can justifiably be used as limiting factors for women. If a woman wants to pursue study and s'micha, she should be able to.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

to speculate about anthropological reason for all of these laws or customs is rather missing the point, or indeed rather pointing out exactly what the problem is, namely: if we do something because it's hygienic, or it's dietarily beneficial, or it avoids making our clothes baggy, that may be very interesting, but a commandment it isn't. that's the point. if something happened for historical or cultural reasons, it's not a religious obligation.

Right. Yes, there may be anthropological reasons for some of the laws. Yes, they may be good for people to follow. We can speculate that if God told someone to do something, it's probably to one's benefit to do it. But one should not follow God's commands because it's good for him or her. Rather, he or she should follow God's commands because they're God's commands.

If absolute power, creator, sovereign of the universe, etc. dude tells you do do something, you do it. Period.

[flowperson]

BB;
I agree with your slant on this. The cleanliness reason was pretty much a modern medical rationalization for the custom. Again, why would this pop up in West African and Middle Eastern tribes only in ancient times? It was plenty hot in other regions of the tropics in Africa, and there was trade across the continent going way back. If the custom existed and spread simply because of "health" reason, why didn't it become a predominant custom elsewhere over time ? The anthropological evidence is that it never did. It only was consistently a custom among the Hebrews and certain West African tribes. Hmmmm....?

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

BB;
I agree with your slant on this. The cleanliness reason was pretty much a modern medical rationalization for the custom. Again, why would this pop up in West African and Middle Eastern tribes only in ancient times? It was plenty hot in other regions of the tropics in Africa, and there was trade across the continent going way back. If the custom existed and spread simply because of "health" reason, why didn't it become a predominant custom elsewhere over time ? The anthropological evidence is that it never did. It only was consistently a custom among the Hebrews and certain West African tribes. Hmmmm....?

flow....

That is not what I said. I said that the commandmants were to be followed because God said so. That was it. He did not explain Himself, nor did He have to. However, we are now understanding some of the reasons why God wanted us to live in certain ways. It's an "a hah, could have had a V-8" revelation. Besides obedience to His word because it was His word, there were actual benefits for adhering to the laws of God.

v/r

Q

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is not what I said. I said that the commandmants were to be followed because God said so. That was it. He did not explain Himself, nor did He have to. However, we are now understanding some of the reasons why God wanted us to live in certain ways. It's an "a hah, could have had a V-8" revelation. Besides obedience to His word because it was His word, there were actual benefits for adhering to the laws of God.

v/r

Q

Q:

I agree that the laws were given by G-d and were there for good purposes. That was not my question.

All I'm asking here is, "... what's all this got to do with West Africa ?" nothing else.

Yes G-d is loving, powerful, omniscient, and gave us all useful commandments to live by. I'm not questioning any of that. But that's only the cultural evidence for why this practice existed and exists in Judeo-Christian tradition.

Again, all I'm asking is...why would it also exist in only a few ancient and pagan cultures in West Africa ? Anyone got any clues ?

flow....

[dauer]

BB and Kari,

If one of you want to start a thread I'll gladly take part. It's always a pleasure talking to either of you.

Dauer

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Q:

I agree that the laws were given by G-d and were there for good purposes. That was not my question.

All I'm asking here is, "... what's all this got to do with West Africa ?" nothing else.

Yes G-d is loving, powerful, omniscient, and gave us all useful commandments to live by. I'm not questioning any of that. But that's only the cultural evidence for why this practice existed and exists in Judeo-Christian tradition.

Again, all I'm asking is...why would it also exist in only a few ancient and pagan cultures in West Africa ? Anyone got any clues ?

flow....

Maybe they believed in the same God, and received some of the same laws...? Or perhaps their people learned of the Judeac or Hebrew practices and adapted them for their own?

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Maybe they believed in the same God, and received some of the same laws...? Or perhaps their people learned of the Judeac or Hebrew practices and adapted them for their own?

Maybe, but not likely. But who really knows ? These tribal populations were significantly separated from the Hebrew tribes of ancient Palestine, and there is no evidence of the practice among the tribal cultures in between. Perhaps a quick chariot ride or two or three across the Sahara Desert ?
ET's ?
Hmmmm ?

flow....

[flowperson]

Q

Something I thought of here.

The ancient Phoenicians were thought to have perhaps sailed down the West coast of the African continent in their trading ventures. And early archaeologists of the mid-east, notably Sir Flinders Petrie, have noted that the Phoenician alphabet was the likely precursor to the early Hebrew alphabet.

This would have likely occurred in the 2nd millenium bce. about the time that the Hebrews arrived in Phoenician lands. So the knowledge transfer concerning circumcision may have taken place in that way. But I'm not aware of any archaeological proof in the form of trade goods, etc. You're the seafaring guy, any thoughts ?

flow....