Inclusive & Exclusive - Belief

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Can you repect that?

yes Dondi.
but i was in reference to those who say i am exclusive just because they do not like what i believe & choose something different. when the bottom line is we all choose what to be inclusive & exclusive to & i was only trying to show how i deal with beliefs that are different without judging them because we are not supposed to judge.

i have tried your approach also. you can be inclusive to people & love them without including the same beliefs. it is very easy. IMO

Jesus is the only way, for me

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Bandit, from getting to know you over the past couple of years I would have said that you are a pluralist in the sense that I use it. I just did not want to put words in your mouth.

peace,
lunamoth

we are probably seeing it the same exact way then. i guess it was just instilled in me from a young age without needing to define it as pluralism.
i think over all it is good thing to do.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

yes Dondi.
but i was in reference to those who say i am exclusive just because they do not like what i believe & choose something different. when the bottom line is we all choose what to be inclusive & exclusive to & i was only trying to show how i deal with beliefs that are different without judging them because we are not supposed to judge.

i have tried your approach also. you can be inclusive to people & love them without including the same beliefs. it is very easy. IMO

Jesus is the only way, for me

I respect that, also. I guess Iam a pluralist in the similair vein as lunamoth. But being so doesn't mean I don't have differences. Each individual has their own journey to follow. My prayer is that we will end up finding the "Truth" together went our time here is finished. I hope for the universal Love of God in each heart.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

That's the point, Bandit. To hold one's own religion as sacred and true, without condmening others for their differences. It is not suggesting that the religions merge or do away with all differences, it does not suggest a Christianity without the death and resurrection of Christ, or without the Bible. It leaves Christianity intact as it leaves all other religions intact. It's basically a worldview of respect for other religions.

{Defintion of pluralism, from Wiki}
As a synonym for ecumenism. At a minimum, ecumenism is the promotion of unity, co-operation, or improved understanding between different denominations within the same religion, or sometimes between different religions. The latter is sometimes called Macro-ecumenism.

As a synonym for religious tolerance, which is a condition of harmonious co-existence between adherents of different religions or religious denominations.

Just wanted to nod in accord with what you've said above, lunamoth, and in fact, with pretty much everything from Tuesday's posts. I think there needs to be an emphasis on the accepting others, or the fact that others maintain various beliefs ... which as has been pointed out, means tolerance of such beliefs, but not necessarily acceptance in the sense of agreement. It has as much (or more) to do with our attitude, and the need for respect, than any question of belief(s). And this must be done prior to, and during, any useful dialogue between people of varying faiths, or belief.

In terms of the pluralism definition, I am definitely of the Macro-Ecumenical persuasion, in that I believe quite strongly in "the promotion of unity, co-operation, or improved understanding between different denominations/religions." As such, differences - both of belief and practice - must be respected, and as best as possible, understood (including tolerance & respect at a minimum). That is just a given, and cannot be overlooked.

Now as an individual with my own beliefs, practices and spiritual understanding, I increasingly realize, on these forums, that it becomes confusing, even frustrating, for some people, when I say things like, "I think the message of the Buddha, the Christ, Sri Krishna and Mohammad, was essentially the same, or of one Essence." On the one hand, that can be seen as sufficiently vague, even tautological (a statement of the obvious), but I think it's troubling if someone interprets this as my saying that these teachers all taught the exact same thing, in the exact same way, with no variation. Or, even that they were trying to! That is not what I maintain, and so I think it's helpful to be more clear in suggesting something like, there is a common moral code, or emphasis on the Golden Rule, to be found in the world's major religions. Perhaps that makes more sense, for it certainly hones in on the point I might try to make. And such threads as the one which discussed the Golden Rule, and the fact that one encounters it almost Universally ... was a Beautiful one!

As far as "picking and choosing" from within the world's various religions, let me make myself ... perfectly clear ... I am not a crook ...

Sorry, what I was going to say is, while I do believe that one day, there will be a "Universal Religion," I am also of the opinion that none of us yet knows exactly what that will look like. Further, it would be strange if we didn't each want to assume that that would be our own current faith, now wouldn't it? So perhaps I'll start a thread on this topic, but with the disclaimer that - beyond posting something like "I do not think this will happen" ... the discussion could focus on, Yes, fine, and what it might look like for those of us who DO ... believe, think, or hope that it might happen. That way, people can avoid being offended, or feeling the need to present any particular set of religious ideas again & again as evidence that "it will never come to pass." At the same time, I do think it is important to consider all factors which might stand in the way of a Universal Religion (I'm not saying Univeralism, but a Universal Religion). Just so nothing gets hammered on so repeatedly ... that it becomes a distraction. And thus, this thread ... would not be ideal for that discussion.

just my 2 cents of the moment ...

andrew

[Dondi]

You know, the key to evangelism, as practiced by Christians, shouldn't be to push our beliefs on someone so much as to guide a person out of their paradigm to a new perspective of God.

Whenever I'd been out visiting folks on Saturday morning visitation with my church, I try to respect the beliefs of those we encounter. It's not my job to tell them they are wrong nor is it my job to force a decision for Christ. I used to be fairly aggressive in getting people to say the "sinner's prayer". The idea is to get them "saved" as quickly as possible, lest it be too late. But even when I do lead someone to Christ in prayer, all too often I got the feeling that they felt forced into it and afterward wonder if they were sincere. Then other times, I end up in arguements with people of other faiths or denominations, and the visit just ends up soured.

More recently, I come to the conclusion that God isn't that rushed to get someone saved. He is patient and takes time with people. Jesus didn't rush with people, but instead dealt with them where they are. Now whenever i go out on visitation, I just simply encourage them to seek God and leave them open with the message of Christ without compulsion. I'm just the messenger boy, not the Holy Spirit.

I'm seeing for the first time that God's plan for people isn't about getting them "saved", though that seems to be the focus in Christianity, which now I feel is a bit misguided. What does God really want? He wants us to be conformed into the image of Christ (I'm still speaking in Christian circles). John 17:3 states that eternal life is to KNOW GOD and HIS SON whom He sent. That to me says that heaven is just a by-product. Heaven without God isn't heaven. What God wants is for us to be like Him, love like Him, know who He is in the Spirit. Anything else is NOT heaven. That is the most important thing, which is often overlooked when we try to save people out of HELL. Hell is existance without God. So the greatest thing we can do is know God. Salvation is merely a means to that end. Indeed, salvation IS being conformed to His image.

But even is a person doesn't accept Christ, that doesn't mean he isn't seeking God in some form or fashion. So I just encourage that person to seek out God in the best way they know, and pray that they will find Him.

[Thomas]

Hi Dondi -

When you've got some free surf time, put Charles Foucauld into a search engine.

"... Members of these groups [following his example] went to live in small communities, called fraternities, in areas where the people were largely poor. They supported themselves by doing the same kind of work as their neighbors. They made no explicit attempt to convert their neighbors or to debate with them. Their purpose is simply to live among them as Christians. They say that Christ did not come to earth primarily to teach (there were already teachers) but to share our human lot. They seek to express the love of Christ for the wretched of the earth by living among them and sharing their lives and their hardships ..."
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/12/01b.html

... or Mother Theresa, who picked up the man dying in the gutter, not to convert him, but simply because she believed that no man should be left to die in the gutter.

Actions speak louder than words.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Andrew -

Might I say, if you believe that:
... one day, there will be a "Universal Religion," I am also of the opinion that none of us yet knows exactly what that will look like...

Then until that time would not the prudent course be to find a religion with which one can accommodate oneself (and I use that term advisedly - it's a question of humility), and get on with it?

That, at least, seems to me to be a Universally Held Truth of all religions.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Dondi - brilliant posts, by the way ... I offered Foucauld purely in support of what you were saying, he inspired me along the lines you were talking about.

You said:
"Heaven without God isn't heaven. What God wants is for us to be like Him, love like Him, know who He is in the Spirit. Anything else is NOT heaven."

I wonder, did you realise as you wrote, as I did as I read, that in God's mind, heaven without you is NOT heaven?

(perhaps you did ... it's just your words struck me quite forcefully)

That God looks over, sees the reserved space, and thinks "I hope (insert your name here) makes it".

Let's face it, He's put more effort into getting us there than we have!

The Fathers say, "where love is, there God is also..." (In fact the mystics of every faith say it.)

Is it so difficult for us to understand that when we love our neighbour it is with the Essence of God?

That even if the other person says no to God, he might say yes to you and, dare one hope, that a little, little, little bit of God got passed the blockade and, once seeded, will be content to wait until conditions are right ...

... that God will nurture and nudge the seed of his that you have sown?

... could all our little, microscopic efforts, lead to 'climate change'?

... They say the eyes are the window of the soul - well come the day we all believe, then that light will pass from one to another, with no need for words, or names, or labels ...

Thomas

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Andrew -

Might I say, if you believe that:
... one day, there will be a "Universal Religion," I am also of the opinion that none of us yet knows exactly what that will look like...

Then until that time would not the prudent course be to find a religion with which one can accommodate oneself (and I use that term advisedly - it's a question of humility), and get on with it?

That, at least, seems to me to be a Universally Held Truth of all religions.

Thomas

Absolutely! And not bad advice, for anyone openly questing. My own path, is that of an aspiring Esotericist. For folks who want to stick me in a religious "box," this will hafta do!

But in terms of what appeals most, Tibetan Buddhism is pretty close to tops, and many of my own practices come from that tradition ... when I'm practicing. My other strong interest, is Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which has some rather noticeable similarities to Judaism.

In the last analysis ... all that really matters to me, is World Service. As you might have put it on another post just recently, walking the walk ... or a similar sentiment.

love & light,

andrew

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I wonder, did you realise as you wrote, as I did as I read, that in God's mind, heaven without you is NOT heaven?

I love this.

lunamoth

[Thomas]

Hi Andrew - had to smile ...
"In the last analysis ... all that really matters to me, is World Service."

In the UK there is 'The World Service' - a BBC radio station (once very English, very posh - the voice of the Empire).

Have you ever come across Marco Pallis? He was a Tibetan Buddhist esoterist who led me to the rediscovery of Catholicism.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Andrew - had to smile ...
"In the last analysis ... all that really matters to me, is World Service."

In the UK there is 'The World Service' - a BBC radio station (once very English, very posh - the voice of the Empire).

Have you ever come across Marco Pallis? He was a Tibetan Buddhist esoterist who led me to the rediscovery of Catholicism.

Hmmm ... this is the voice of the BBC World Service - isn't that what they say? Have listened to it, and would rather get my news there than almost anywhere here in 'Merica-land.

No, haven't heard of Marco Pallis, but I will check him out. Have read Madame Alexandra David-Neel (if I got that right off the top of my head), Lama Angarika Govinda, Evans-Wentz, and another one in that vein whom I am forgetting at the moment. Also have read quite a few works by Tibetans, some being translations. Oh, and certainly Glenn Mullin's stuff. Even met him once, in college, and had the rare privilege of hearing a lecture from a Rimpoche, translated by Mullin. Not as keen on Robert Thurman, even if he is Uma's daddy ... but he's still a wonderful guy, and I like to hear him talk.

cheers,

andrew

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Dondi - brilliant posts, by the way ... I offered Foucauld purely in support of what you were saying, he inspired me along the lines you were talking about.

You said:
"Heaven without God isn't heaven. What God wants is for us to be like Him, love like Him, know who He is in the Spirit. Anything else is NOT heaven."

I wonder, did you realise as you wrote, as I did as I read, that in God's mind, heaven without you is NOT heaven?

Thomas

Thanks, Thomas.

No, actually, I didn't even think that. But that is a mind boggling thought. I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but I do wonder what He could possibly want with us??!! But I think you are touching on something important, just as important as us desiring God. If God is Love, then that love needs to be expressed....somewhere. As powerful God is in His might, His Love must be just as powerful. He could not possibly keep something like that bottled up. A Lover needs someone to love.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Dondi -

When you've got some free surf time, put Charles Foucauld into a search engine.

"... Members of these groups [following his example] went to live in small communities, called fraternities, in areas where the people were largely poor. They supported themselves by doing the same kind of work as their neighbors. They made no explicit attempt to convert their neighbors or to debate with them. Their purpose is simply to live among them as Christians. They say that Christ did not come to earth primarily to teach (there were already teachers) but to share our human lot. They seek to express the love of Christ for the wretched of the earth by living among them and sharing their lives and their hardships ..."
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/12/01b.html

... or Mother Theresa, who picked up the man dying in the gutter, not to convert him, but simply because she believed that no man should be left to die in the gutter.

Actions speak louder than words.

Thomas

Truly, Charles Foucald and Mother Theresa were love in action. People like this are what inspires me to do more to love my neighbor, to get involve in something that will reflect the Love of Christ.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Thanks, Thomas.

No, actually, I didn't even think that. But that is a mind boggling thought. I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but I do wonder what He could possibly want with us??!! But I think you are touching on something important, just as important as us desiring God. If God is Love, then that love needs to be expressed....somewhere. As powerful God is in His might, His Love must be just as powerful. He could not possibly keep something like that bottled up. A Lover needs someone to love.

that is a belief i can include & choose not to exclude.
i think He wants us to love Him back as well. that love coming from above is different than what we can really express in physical ways. don't you think?