Inclusive & Exclusive - Belief

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I do not believe in the remission of sins. I realize that many (most?) Christians do, and that it is also regarded as a teaching of Jesus - central, even, to being a Christian. However, I disagree, and I would be happy to explain why, or give all sorts of back-up for my belief. But it might just be easier in this case, if we agree to disagree. I find that that saves all sorts of valuable time and frustration. I guess it's just one of those beliefs that I exclude.

In a nutshell, I simply feel that it all comes down to Responsibility. So I can dig most Christian teachings, and one way or the other, I can reconcile myself with everything found in the Bible. But vicarious atonement, and the remission of sins, are two things I will never believe. In my understanding, other beliefs "occupy that space."

peace,

andrew

well, that is what Jesus came for & yes the blood of Jesus Christ is what all these other religions gladly & happily exclude. & i guess that is why i would like to know what makes all these other people so much better & more special than me, that they have no sin or feel they can do it all by themselves.
they are inclusive to something different. hmmm

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I do not believe in the remission of sins. I realize that many (most?) Christians do, and that it is also regarded as a teaching of Jesus - central, even, to being a Christian. However, I disagree, and I would be happy to explain why, or give all sorts of back-up for my belief. But it might just be easier in this case, if we agree to disagree. I find that that saves all sorts of valuable time and frustration. I guess it's just one of those beliefs that I exclude.

In a nutshell, I simply feel that it all comes down to Responsibility. So I can dig most Christian teachings, and one way or the other, I can reconcile myself with everything found in the Bible. But vicarious atonement, and the remission of sins, are two things I will never believe. In my understanding, other beliefs "occupy that space."

peace,

andrew

Let me ask you this, taijasi. Do you believe in some kind of purification process? An analogy: You can just purify dirty water by putting something into it (like chlorine), the water still has to be filtered to get rid of the junk that's in it.

[taijasi]

Yes, absolutely, the purification process (called the "burning ground" in esoteric teachings) is, in my understanding, a stage prior to discipleship proper. No person can skip this process, nor are we capable of doing it alone. Even as we demonstrate Emerson's self-reliance, there are Divine forces and energies at work. Of this, I am certain.

andrew

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

well, that is what Jesus came for & yes the blood of Jesus Christ is what all these other religions gladly & happily exclude. & i guess that is why i would like to know what makes all these other people so much better & more special than me, that they have no sin or feel they can do it all by themselves.
they are inclusive to something different. hmmm

Hang on, who's better than who? I dunno who gets off saying that, or expressing an attitude of superiority. Sounds like smugness to me, or just a projection. Better than, usually means that a person has something to hide, an insecurity.

I do believe that among us there are Masters, who are without sin, as was the Christ. Therefore I don't think it's correct to say, "everyone has sin." These individuals, as I believe, have overcome their sin - via the Christ within.

But you and I, unless I'm gravely mistaken, are quite error-prone, and probably - despite our best efforts, still sin. For example, I think it's safe to say that I sin daily, and I know it. I'm not real happy about it, but I also believe (or know) ... that I am accountable for it. If twelve people throw a big rock at twelve different windows, they're all going to break. As the 13th dude coming along, with my own heavy rock - man, that 13th window's gonna break, too!

Wittingly, or willingly sinning, isn't exactly wise, I know. I'm just acknowledging that it's part of our human nature, and remains with us until the very last stages of the journey (as I believe things .... ).

cheers,

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Hang on, who's better than who? I dunno who gets off saying that, or expressing an attitude of superiority. Sounds like smugness to me, or just a projection. Better than, usually means that a person has something to hide, an insecurity.

I do believe that among us there are Masters, who are without sin, as was the Christ. Therefore I don't think it's correct to say, "everyone has sin." These individuals, as I believe, have overcome their sin - via the Christ within.

But you and I, unless I'm gravely mistaken, are quite error-prone, and probably - despite our best efforts, still sin. For example, I think it's safe to say that I sin daily, and I know it. I'm not real happy about it, but I also believe (or know) ... that I am accountable for it. If twelve people throw a big rock at twelve different windows, they're all going to break. As the 13th dude coming along, with my own heavy rock - man, that 13th window's gonna break, too!

Wittingly, or willingly sinning, isn't exactly wise, I know. I'm just acknowledging that it's part of our human nature, and remains with us until the very last stages of the journey (as I believe things .... ).

cheers,

andrew

ok. i thought you were trying to say you are above sin or have no sin or make mistakes. we agree- we both have sin.
so if you dont believe in remission of sin, then it must be ok in your belief?
that is confusing for me.

[taijasi]

I believe in the confession of sin. In the silence of our heart, I believe that God hears us, and that the response - is forgiveness. To receive this, I believe we must only ask. Even not to ask, we are forgiven. Yet, either way, we are responsible.

Further, if I am at least aware of my transgression, and I am making a conscious effort not to repeat the mistake, then I believe that my efforts do not go unnoticed. Instead, there is Divine assistance. At the same time, there are trials, because only as we can consistently demonstrate that we have learned a lesson, will the temptation, or the ignorance that caused our error to begin with, cease.

As for responsibility, I do think there is one standard for all, yet for those who are penitent, I think it's safe to say that this attitude is taken into consideration. Those who sin openly, knowingly, and without remorse, are in danger of losing touch (temporarily) with their innate conscience, or Soul (the presence of God within each of us). To ignore our conscience, is sad indeed. Often it is only upon the moment of death that a person with a hardened heart is finally able once again to open to God. But this, in my way of seeing things, is simply fortunate for that person ... very fortunate, but not the removal of accountabilty.

Perhaps it's not as difficult, since I do not believe in a permanent hell - only Heaven. The only hell I believe in, is the one we're living in now. Again, just my beliefs ...

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I believe in the confession of sin. In the silence of our heart, I believe that God hears us, and that the response - is forgiveness. To receive this, I believe we must only ask. Even not to ask, we are forgiven. Yet, either way, we are responsible.

Further, if I am at least aware of my transgression, and I am making a conscious effort not to repeat the mistake, then I believe that my efforts do not go unnoticed. Instead, there is Divine assistance. At the same time, there are trials, because only as we can consistently demonstrate that we have learned a lesson, will the temptation, or the ignorance that caused our error to begin with, cease.

As for responsibility, I do think there is one standard for all, yet for those who are penitent, I think it's safe to say that this attitude is taken into consideration. Those who sin openly, knowingly, and without remorse, are in danger of losing touch (temporarily) with their innate conscience, or Soul (the presence of God within each of us). To ignore our conscience, is sad indeed. Often it is only upon the moment of death that a person with a hardened heart is finally able once again to open to God. But this, in my way of seeing things, is simply fortunate for that person ... very fortunate, but not the removal of accountabilty.

Perhaps it's not as difficult, since I do not believe in a permanent hell - only Heaven. The only hell I believe in, is the one we're living in now. Again, just my beliefs ...

andrew

i agree, we are responsible. actually i agree with the whole post because hell to me is death & the grave. in my belief this grave & death is also what Jesus came for. the only part is disagree with is

Even not to ask, we are forgiven.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Yes, absolutely, the purification process (called the "burning ground" in esoteric teachings) is, in my understanding, a stage prior to discipleship proper. No person can skip this process, nor are we capable of doing it alone. Even as we demonstrate Emerson's self-reliance, there are Divine forces and energies at work. Of this, I am certain.

andrew

In fact, this type of "burning ground" is evident in Christian teachings:

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." - 1 Peter 1:2-9

And here:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." - 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

For Christians, this tempering of fire is through the Holy Spirit of God:

"...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" - Matthew 3:11

"For our God is a consuming fire." - Hebrews 12:29



As you pointed out, we cannot purify ourselves. Some Divine force must be enacted in our being to activate this purification. Christians believe that the Blood of Jesus is the instrument for purifying one's sins.

What I feel Jesus meant when He had His disciples to take and eat His body and drink His blood is that we cannot do this alone. The Spirit of God, or Divine Force, if you will, must be present. One cannot love another properly without God, who is the Source of Love present in one's life. As a Christian partake of Christ's body and blood, he is reminded of that. That we must eat and drink in God's Spirit, which will teach us how we should live and love others.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Yes, absolutely, the purification process (called the "burning ground" in esoteric teachings) is, in my understanding, a stage prior to discipleship proper. No person can skip this process, nor are we capable of doing it alone. Even as we demonstrate Emerson's self-reliance, there are Divine forces and energies at work. Of this, I am certain.

andrew

hey taj, did you ever think that maybe this Divine force and energy at work is God doing it through Jesus, but you just dont realize it?. i ask that respectfully.

remember i dont believe Jesus is God the same way most Christians do, but rather a mediator or in other words, if God were a man, then Jesus is what you would see & get.

[taijasi]

Dondi, cool parallels. As I say, I do believe the Divine is involved, for we cannot purify ourselves of our own earthly effort alone. That is where the Soul enters in (the Christ within) ... and at a certain stage, a spiritual Master. This Master may or may not be the Syrian (who was Jesus). This addresses what you're saying, too, Bandit. Again, just what I've come to believe in 33 years - though at age 3, the foundation was already laid.

The primary difference, I think, between how we regard Jesus ... is the question of personality. In my way of seeing things, Jesus is not a personality at all. Technically, he isn't even what we might call a Soul. Esoterically, he is an example of someone who has crossed the bridge which the Soul provides (the Soul is the Christ principle, No man comes to the Father except by "me") ... and become at-one with "the Father." The Father has many, many aspects, or "modes of being," so to speak. And while there remains a Transcendence, what I believe Christ (or rather, Jesus) accomplished ... was the at-one-ment of his own Soul with "Our Father who Art in Heaven," or - Pure Spirit.

And thus, a Master is a direct manifestation of the Spirit of God. But this Spirit - while singular, and whole, and ONE - is nonetheless capable of displaying itself in whatever means necessary (for all intents & purposes), for a given situation. And thus, Moses beheld the burning bush, while no man, in my understanding, looks upon the face of God, as a mortal. But Jesus, and the Christ, had transcended the mortal state - and did see and know God.

Hmmm, Bandit, you make a good point, and in response, I would say several things. Yes, I have certainly considered that. Let's say I'm 99.9999999% certain that Jesus doesn't stand at the head of the Heavenly Hierarchy. But that's in part, because I distinguish between Jesus of Nazareth, and the Christ, whom and which descended (or overshadowed) him from the moment of the Baptism onward, as depicted in the Gospel account, and symbolized in art. So, I do take it as a given - that Christ is the Master of Masters.

Esoteric teachings do not arbitrarily rank the spiritual Masters, yet there are traditions more ancient than Hinduism (millions of years old) which teach that there is a Great Chain of Being - which originates in the Heavens, and encompasses all of Cosmos. This vastness is such that I am not really worthy to even mention it ... yet upon this inner Reality, all that is outward is based. And this Chain of Being finds its reflection upon Earth.

Always it was thus, but esoteric records point to a time 18 million years ago, when the third Lord of the World (of the Spiritual World, and thus, of all of the Earth) came to His present post. He is also called the Silent Watcher, as well as The Ancient of Days. In Sanskrit, His name is Sanat Kumara, but Kumara is a type of being, and Sanat Kumara simply means Eternal Youth. Strange that He has these apparently contradictory names, but what is meant is that this Being is literally more Ancient than any of us can conceive - having vowed to safeguard the progress of every last human pilgrim ... until the close of this cycle (whenever that is). This is the Great Sacrifice, and as I see it, this is God. He is not the Highest, but He is the One to Whom Christ referred when He said, Abba, or Father.

This is a being of incredible stature, and everyting that we think of as "God" applies to Him - either directly, or indirectly. Indirectly, it must be considered (at least, as I believe it) ... that this being, In Whom we live and move and have our Being ... acts directly upon the even greater Will - of a Being we can scarcely conceive. I just take this as granted, since I cannot apprehend the least aspect of the consciousness of this Greater Being. But God the Father, Christ did tell us we may know. The Perfect Love of Greatest God is embodied for us, as the goal of the life of every human ... in God the Father. And while there are yet other beings of vast spiritual stature who stand with the Ancient of Days, they together compose The Father's House, and the Council Chamber of the Lord.

Because these beings are so vastly ahead of us - or beyond us, in spiritual stature (intelligence, Love, and Power) ... it is necessary, for them (or we should just say, God) to relate to us through the Christ, and His Church. I suppose it seems complicated, and even unnecessary, to consider that there might be more to Christ than just one being. I do understand that approach, and that belief. I respect it. And I do think that it is right for many. My studies, my experiences, and my findings, have simply led me to regard Christ and His Church as more of ... an organization, or say, a living, spiritual organism. Certainly, yes, composed of living, loving beings. That, is the one, all-embracing characteristic of this Inner Government that inwardly guides all human affairs, and safeguards the Plan of God for this tiny planet.

Other planets operate similarly, as only seems natural to me. And again, our entire solar system mirrors a much more vast cosmic order, though even to conceive of one Galaxy is beyond us. It's like an ant reaching out to conceive of the entire planet Earth ...

Anyway, I didn't mean to deliver a treatise, and this is only an attempt to demonstrate that I have a belief system of my own. It does exclude quite a few of the teachings of the varous religions, but for the most part, I simply see things a bit different. I do not ever mean to come across as sounding superior. Unfortunately, that's a human weakness, and I'm all-too human ... and that's on a good day!

As for Jesus though, I've probably learned more in the past few months, than in several years, because I've looked a bit more into things from a historical perspective. In terms of Initiatory standing, is was said that 2100 years ago, he was a 4th Degree Initiate. Not the first, and there have been a few since then ... though such a high degree of Initiation is not easy to attain. Certainly this implies Grace - I do not mean to take that part for granted, but I do. Nothing could be accomplished without God, and I agree, one should give thanks, constantly. But it doesn't mean we can't think about the stages of spiritual progression ... if we can avoid the temptation to judge others. But a true esotericist never does this.

If Jesus of Nazareth was a 4th Degree Initiate, what does that mean? It means, since I believe in rebirth, that his additional Initiations have taken place since then, in other lives. Upon becoming such a high Initiate, one is never again unconscious. Thus, there is no sleep (only the "removal" to a higher spiritual plane). There is also no death, because one understands the process of rebirth from the inside, so to speak. One is not yet "free," because the goal of evolution upon this planet takes us two Initiations higher. And that can be several lives, or perhaps just one.

Jesus is said to have reincarnated as Appollonius of Tyana, and reading accounts of the "miracles" and healings performed by that curious adept ... is quite revealing. Jesus is also said to have been the Hindu sage, Ramanujacharya ... but even as Appollonius he had attained the 5th Degree of Initiation. This was the goal of evolution at the time, and makes him a Nirmanakaya, in Buddhist terms. This is very close to a Bodhisattva, and his continued presence upon this planet (instead of pursuing the Way of Higher Evolution, which leads away from Earth) ... is evidence of his continued sacrifice for our sake. As of several hundred years ago, Jesus is said to have taken on a Syrian incarnation, and is now a 6th Degree Initiate. Only a handful of such High Initiates exist upon the planet. And yes, I do believe that in a Spiritual sense, he just happens to be my Master - or more accurately, I aspire to one day have the honor of being a student. My best guess, Bandit, would be that you are on the 6th Ray line as well, though I could be dead wrong. It's just a guess. What do I mean?

The Ray line of Jesus is the 6th, and this is but one of Seven streams of energy, emanating from the Heart of God, which also bring us, finally at long last, as the Prodigal, back to God. Many disciples approach upon another Ray, as there are Masters of all the Rays, some of the 6th Degree, as Jesus, others of the 5th Degree, such as one called simply, The Tibetan. Not all Masters take students, as some are occupied with work in purely spiritual spheres. A Master must be able to maintain a physical incarnation in order to be in contact (occultly) with his disciples, and in the case of the Master Jesus these must surely number in the many, many thousands. Perhaps only a few dozen, as I believe it, are able to enter into direct consciousness with him at will. But this is necessary. He is very busy. He works ceaselessly And right now, the stimulation of the spiritual nature of all of Humanity (but especially in the West) ... is occupying his attention. He works directly with the Christ, helping prepare the way for the Reappearance. That we will "see" it, I am certain.

I do not mean to suggest that the Masters are not in touch with all of their disciples, all the time. For this is so. Such is the nature of their higher, spiritual awareness. A Master can be in two places or more at once, literally, and many times this is necessary. Stories exist about Jesus doing exactly this bi-location, as Appollonius of Tyana. And I think we know well that as we aspire to serve, and reach out to the Master in our heart, there is a response.

Anyway, the other Masters - or at least those known - include Masters Morya and Jupiter (Ray 1), Masters Kuthumi and Djwal Khul (Ray 2), one called the Venetian (Ray 3), Master Serapis (Ray 4), Master Hilarion (Ray 5), and Master Rakoczy (Ray 7). I could name a dozen more, and it is also said that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is a Master, although she entered the Deva, or Angelic evolution, which is an option for Initiates of high enough standing. But directing all of the Masters (63, total) is the Christ, Teacher alike of Angels and of Men. He also directs the entire Angelic Hierarchy, which is even more vast than the Human.

If you would like some kind of a testimony, then I can say that yes, I do know for certain that these beings exist, and that yes, they do labor collectively - not for the benefit of mankind alone, but rather, to carry forth the Plan of God. That Plan is vast, and we are but one part of it, yet at the present time, there is a tremendous focus upon Humanity, as we are the pivot point of spiritual evolution for the entire planet. We are also on the verge of welcoming the Christ into outward activity again, as evidenced by the awakening of the Will-to-Good in the hearts of all peoples, worldwide, and in the accomplishing of many, many wonderful things. As is said, these cannot be done, without God.

But I have no interest in babbling on about supposed communications, or messages from the Masters, since anything of the such, if valid, is strictly between a disciple and the Master, or a group of disciples, and the Master. However, there are many dozens of books available, authored by at least a dozen or so of the Masters, some quite recently (1980s, or more recent). One of my favorite is the writing of the Master Jesus, through a British disciple (a composer), and I am rereading it now. Very wonderful. As beautiful as the snow that falls outside my window now. Yes, manna from Heaven!

(yes, many authors purport to "channel" so-and-so, one must learn to discern, and it's not easy ... )

A link to a chart of the Hierarchy of Masters, if a bit outdated ...

And if you would like to see drawings of some of the Masters, which are probably as accurate as any drawing could be ... here. Christ is referred to by his Buddhist name, Maitreya (yes, I know you're familiar with this idea - consider the picture, however, and notice it's not the same as Master J. - then also look at Master KH ... interesting ... )

I do hope this is not seen as proselytism. I have no interest in changing anyone's beliefs or faith one whit ... unless perhaps, in something I've said, you might find something of use. I have gained much from what's been said on this particular thread so far, and on many others. And for this, I am grateful.

Thus, in the spirit of sharing ...

Andrew

[Bandit]

i am still seeing Jesus as the fulness of the Godhead bodily, without anyone else. Just a Father & a Son & the Son fills all in all making Jesus - God manifested in the flesh. & i mean manifested, not turning into the object.


taijasi, you are seeing several different masters (but only ONE GOD) where i only see one master & one God. it appears at times you are seeing these different masters as the same Jesus, but in reincarnation or with a distinct message for each master or something like that.

i dont know what the ray line of 6 means, but if it is anything like levels i might give myself a 2 reaching for the 3rd but always slipping back down to level 2 & 1. 6 would be a really good day for me!

i kind of understand & acknowledge what you are trying to say. i will get back with more of this in a day or two.

i will check out the link & chart then also .

[taijasi]

Bandit, others,

I was going to post something here about the Rays, but there's already a thread for that, so you could check out the post I just made there, if you want. It's kinda lengthy (big surprise ) ... but it's worth looking at even just for the other 5 pieces of Ray art. Posted below are the missing art for Ray 1 and Ray 7. Done by Bruce Lyon, an esotericist, and a real neat guy!

Anyway, my post started by mentioning that ... the Rays aren't meant to be hieararchical at all. Just Seven different streams of energy emanating from God, and Seven returning. 'Tis an idea found in all spiritual teachings, and mythologies. The Seven Spirits before the Throne, is how most Christians have seen it, but if interested, I'll bet a few teeth that I can find additional references.

Anyway, Rays 1 and 7, per Bruce:



The Seal of Solomon may not seem appropriate for Ray 7, but I think the reason the artist chose it, is because the center of the Star is considered as its seventh point, or the synthesizing "side." Ray 7 is, itself, about synthesis, so this actually makes sense doubly so! Ray 1, btw, is Will, Power, and Purpose. The correspondence is God the Father (esoterically, also Michael, and thus the use of the sword is not surprising!).

Love & Light,

andrew

[didymus]

Sorry I am late to this thread. I didn't know it was started off of one of my comments until today. I'm flattered. Awe shucks. I didn't read all posts yet because I wanted t0 reply to the comment that the Bible doesnt' speak of reincarnation. There is reference to reincarnation in the NT, Let's talk about Elijah. Was or was not Elijah expected to return to prepare the way for the Messiah. This was no other than John the Baptist who was indeed believed to be Elijah. In fact Jesus even confirmd this in Matthew 17 10-13. Also Matthew 11 13-15.

[taijasi]

... hmmm, as I see it, the Baptizer was no one, if he was not Elijah come again. Some may choose to view this symbolically, or in terms of God's fulfillment of a prophecy. Sure, I can dig all that, and I choose to view Christ's words, in this case, quite literally. He says something like, For I tell you, Elijah has come, and ye knew him not. And I think the Bible goes on to say, And then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist.

But let's also look at Revelation (I thought it was Paul, but I am mistaken). We read:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:" (Revelation 3:12)

It's okay, this one can be explained away as well, or taken to mean a thousand things. But "go out no more" seems as plain as day. In the end, if one insists that the Teachings of Rebirth have been carefully edited out of the Bible after all these years, I would agree (... such effort was made). If they affirm that any given example of such supposed Teaching as still exists, is capable of many possible interpretations, then I can only concur. But if it is asserted that Christ never taught Rebirth, then I must say, Hang on a minute, what do you mean? For I think He taught it in several regards.

One is reborn of fire, and through the Holy Spirit, and this is not simply a way of referring to reincarnation, though certainly it might take several lives of aspiration to become prepared for this experience. Christ taught us how to prepare, through a life of purity, of spiritual discipline, and of service to others. This was part of His Mission. Yet He also taught, through parable, as well as to the disciples in secret, some of the Mysteries of Life, such as the inner workings of the Law of Rebirth ... which goes hand in hand with the Law of Karma. As ye sow, so shall ye reap ... and As ye mete it out, so shall it be meted out unto you.

For those who argue, and can quote Biblical verse after Biblical verse insisting that Christ never taught anything in "secret" ... there's no need. I'm familiar with them. Answer please, to just one simple parable, and Christ's own explanation of it. After providing the Parable of the Sower, in Matthew 13:3-8, Christ says:

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. ... Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. ... But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

Thus, Christ came to reveal to the Righteous, and not for the multitudes, a certain Revelation, or deeper understanding, of the Ways of God. For the masses, He likewise had much to say, including the seeds which would one day be gathered in ... as this same fruit of Wisdom. Yet, only after the field has been tended, and seeds become Trees, bearing this fruit. It is not possible to communicate the profundities to those who are unprepared. And so Christ cautioned His followers:

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6)

Are we dogs or swine? Hmmm ... silly sheep, perhaps, or even bovine-like, stubborn and slow to learn. But I can speak for myself only!

Anyway, for me, the reasons to believe in Rebirth are about 99 to 1 for, and the simple 1% margin of error just seems prudent. I take Biblical support as constituting maybe, 5 or 6% of my reason for believing in rebirth ... and the overwhelming evidence for me comes through experience. So this question is really just academic ...

andrew

[didymus]

Revelation 3:12 just smacked me between the eyes. If after one overcomes, he shall be sent out no more is true then this resonates with a belief in reincarnation. I am not an expert in reincarnation but i do know that one is believed to come back until all lessons are learned that need to be learned. This could be looked at as overcoming. From what I have gathered this is a voluntary decision made by the soul. If the soul chooses it may stay in spiritual form.